Avodah Mailing List

Volume 34: Number 33

Mon, 21 Mar 2016

• 1. Toiveling a Tray (Prof. Levine)
• 2. Chayav livsumei (saul newman)
• 3. Re: Chayav livsumei (Zev Sero)
• 4. Re: Chayav livsumei (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Chayav livsumei (Lisa Liel)
• 6. Re: Chayav livsumei (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Chayav livsumei (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: Chayav livsumei (saul newman)
• 9. Re: Chayav livsumei (Zev Sero)

OU Kosher Halacha Yomis

Q. This Purim, I am planning to send cookies to my neighbor on a 
metal tray for mishloach manos. Should I tovel the tray, or should my 
neighbor perform the tevilah?

A. Bais Yosef (Yoreh De'ah 120) writes that tevilah is only required 
for utensils used with food. Thus, if a Jewish store owner buys 
utensils from a non-Jew for resale, the merchant is not obligated to 
perform the mitzvah of tevilah. Since there is no mitzvah, even if 
the merchant was tovel the utensils, the tevilah would be 
ineffective; the purchaser would be required to perform tevilah in 
spite of the earlier tevilah. Similarly, a tray purchased as a 
stand-alone gift cannot be toveled before it reaches the recipient. 
However, if the gift will be a tray with food on it (such as 
mishloach manos on a tray), there is a dispute whether the giver is 
required to perform tevilah. Therefore, the proper procedure in the 
latter case is for the giver to tovel the tray without a bracha and 
then inform the recipient that he too should tovel the tray without a bracha.

More about this program and to subscribe visit 
https://oukosher.org/halacha-yomis-email/

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Is this a separate mitzvah apart from the classic four? Or if one went
through Purim sober he was not yotze mitzvah Seuda? But if the latter we
see plenty who are getting drunk. 1)not on wine, and 2) not beshaat seuda. 
   Also one who NEVER ate drunk was never yotze mitzvah Purim in his life?

Sent from my iPhone

On 03/18/2016 05:22 PM, saul newman via Avodah wrote:
> Is this a separate mitzvah apart from the classic four?

No, it's not a mitzvah.   The Amoraim were not authorised to make up
their own mitzvos.  Thus there is nothing to be "yotzei".   It's part
of the observance of Purim, like saying Ve`al Hanissim, or reading
Vayavo `Amalek.  If one omitted it then his total Purim experience was
deficient in some measure.  How much deficient?  I don't know, maybe
as much as one who gave matanot la'evyonim, and gave generously, but
didn't heed the dictum "kol haposhet yad".


-- 
Zev Sero               All around myself I will wave the green willow
z...@sero.name          The myrtle and the palm and the citron for a week
                And if anyone should ask me the reason why I'm doing that
                I'll say "It's a Jewish thing; if you have a few minutes
                I'll explain it to you".

On Sun, Mar 20, 2016 at 09:18:00PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: On 03/18/2016 05:22 PM, saul newman via Avodah wrote:
: >Is this a separate mitzvah apart from the classic four?
: 
: No, it's not a mitzvah.   The Amoraim were not authorised to make up
: their own mitzvos.  Thus there is nothing to be "yotzei"...

I think RSN's question is based on the word "michayav", rather than
"raui inish livsumei" or "tov le'inish" or the like. But whether or not
I'm second-guessing intent correctly, your answer begs the question: If
there is nothing to be yotzei, why do they use the shoresh "chayav"? OTOH,
if it is an actual chiyuv, why "michayav" rather than the usual (and
shorter) conjugation, "chayav" itself?

Also, who said the chiyuv started with the amoraim, just because it's
stated as a quote from Rava? If it were a din in the se'udas Purim, a
suggestion RNS entertains and fits the context in the gemara, isn't it
common for dinim in de'Oraisos and derabbanans to be quoted from amoraim
(and not only discussions of what tannaim meant)? Like the very next din,
same list of dinim from Rabbah, then you aren't yotzei se'udas Purim
with a meal at night.

The topic I raise every Purim: It is clear from both texts and common
practice that we hold like rava. Even if some Litvaks find ways to
minimize the statement. But why? The bulk of the sugya is the story
of "qam Rabah shachteih leRabbi Zeira" and the sugya closes with RZ's
"there won't be a miracle every time." The sugya reads as a PSA against
drunkenness, in disagreement with Rabbah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "As long as the candle is still burning,
mi...@aishdas.org        it is still possible to accomplish and to
http://www.aishdas.org   mend."
Fax: (270) 514-1507          - Anonymous shoemaker to R' Yisrael Salanter

On 3/21/2016 4:19 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> I think RSN's question is based on the word "michayav"...            If
> there is nothing to be yotzei, why do they use the shoresh "chayav"? OTOH,
> if it is an actual chiyuv, why "michayav" rather than the usual (and
> shorter) conjugation, "chayav" itself?

Perhaps the line should be read bit'mihah.  "Is one chayav to drink on 
Purim...?"  It would explain why it's immediately followed with what can 
only be a cautionary tale *again* overdrinking.

Lisa

On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 04:51:46PM +0200, Lisa Liel wrote:
: On 3/21/2016 4:19 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
: >I think RSN's question is based on the word "michayav"...            If
: >there is nothing to be yotzei, why do they use the shoresh "chayav"? OTOH,
: >if it is an actual chiyuv, why "michayav" rather than the usual (and
: >shorter) conjugation, "chayav" itself?

: Perhaps the line should be read bit'mihah.  "Is one chayav to drink
: on Purim...?"  It would explain why it's immediately followed with
: what can only be a cautionary tale *again* overdrinking.

While this answers the question you quote, it would make my tangential
question stronger. If no in the gemara actually speaks about a chiyuv
(or "chiyuv") to drink ad delo yada, why would it become the dominant
opinion in the rishonim (with the exception being some Provencial
rabbanim) and broadly accepted practice? I asked why follow Rava rather
than what appears to be the gemara's maqanah, but if that's not even
what Rava meant... I would therefore conclude that it's generally not
taken bitmiha.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A cheerful disposition is an inestimable treasure.
mi...@aishdas.org        It preserves health, promotes convalescence,
http://www.aishdas.org   and helps us cope with adversity.
Fax: (270) 514-1507         - R' SR Hirsch, "From the Wisdom of Mishlei"

On 03/21/2016 10:19 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
> I think RSN's question is based on the word "michayav", rather than
> "raui inish livsumei" or "tov le'inish" or the like. But whether or not
> I'm second-guessing intent correctly, your answer begs the question: If
> there is nothing to be yotzei, why do they use the shoresh "chayav"?

Because it is an obligation, part of the total experience of the day,
but it's not one of the mitzvos.  The mitzvos come from the megillah,
this is an independent memra in the gemara.  Al Hanissim and Vayavo
Amalek are also not mitzvos, but they are chiyuvim.   What happens if
one omitted them?  Nothing.   The mitzvos of the day have been fulfilled,
one just didn't do the whole day in the ideal fashion.

I don't know whether "kol haposhet yad" is a chiyuv, a recommendation,
or, on the contrary, a kulla, that one is yotzei matanos la'evyonim
without conducting the sort of due diligence one must normally do to
be yotzei mitzvas tzedaka; but if it's something approaching a chiyuv,
what happens if one omits it?  Again, one didn't do the whole day in
the ideal fashion.


>  OTOH, if it is an actual chiyuv, why "michayav" rather than the usual
>  (and shorter) conjugation, "chayav" itself?

AFAIK "michayav" *is* the usual conjugation.  Can you find an example of
"chayav inish" to do something?


> Also, who said the chiyuv started with the amoraim, just because it's
> stated as a quote from Rava?

I'm just going on the fact that this memra is the first (and last)
mention of it.  The four mitzvos are in the megilla.


> If it were a din in the se'udas Purim, a
> suggestion RNS entertains and fits the context in the gemara, isn't it
> common for dinim in de'Oraisos and derabbanans to be quoted from amoraim
> (and not only discussions of what tannaim meant)? Like the very next din,
> same list of dinim from Rabbah, then you aren't yotzei se'udas Purim
> with a meal at night.

It could be, but then it should say "livesumi bise`udata" or something
like that.

  
> The topic I raise every Purim: It is clear from both texts and common
> practice that we hold like rava. Even if some Litvaks find ways to
> minimize the statement. But why? The bulk of the sugya is the story
> of "qam Rabah shachteih leRabbi Zeira" and the sugya closes with RZ's
> "there won't be a miracle every time." The sugya reads as a PSA against
> drunkenness, in disagreement with Rabbah.

On the contrary, the fact that Rabba suggested it again proves that
this was the correct conduct, and if a miracle would be required again,
it would be provided. Rav Zeira didn't say he wasn't going to get drunk,
and he didn't tell Rabba not to get drunk, he just didn't want to be there
at the time, in case there wouldn't be a second miracle. Maybe there's
a drasha there about when one can and can't rely on miracles, and what
sort of person can or can't rely on them, but there's no disapproval of
the drunkenness itself. Presumably R Zeira found someone more congenial
to get drunk with.



On 03/21/2016 10:51 AM, Lisa Liel wrote:
> Perhaps the line should be read bit'mihah. "Is one chayav to drink on
> Purim...?" It would explain why it's immediately followed with what
> can only be a cautionary tale *again* overdrinking.

How can it be bitmiha when there has been no previous suggestion that
it *should* be that way?   This is the first we hear of such a thing,
so it must be read straight.   And the upshot of the story is that
despite what happened the previous year Rabba did not refrain, because
drunkenness on Purim *is* the right thing to do, and the consequences
are in Hashem's hands.



-- 
Zev Sero               All around myself I will wave the green willow
z...@sero.name          The myrtle and the palm and the citron for a week
                And if anyone should ask me the reason why I'm doing that
                I'll say "It's a Jewish thing; if you have a few minutes
                I'll explain it to you".

On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 8:06 AM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:
> How can it be bitmiha when there has been no previous suggestion that
> it *should* be that way?   This is the first we hear of such a thing,
> so it must be read straight.   And the upshot of the story is that
> despite what happened the previous year Rabba did not refrain, because
> drunkenness on Purim *is* the right thing to do, and the consequences
> are in Hashem's hands.

to that i would think that then, the widespread chillul hashem that
drinking on purim by the Bochrim teams [the 5th mitzva of purim,
collecting for anything OTHER than matanos leevyonim] would definitionally
be not a chillul Hashem, since it "is in Hashem's hands" to quote you --
though i think you would answer that the drunkenness was supposed to be
part of a seudah , and their shtick precedes the seudah by many hours ,
and therefore merits no Divine sanction

On 03/21/2016 11:14 AM, saul newman wrote:
> ------ to that i would think that then , the widespread chillul
> hashem that drinking on purim by the Bochrim teams [the 5th mitzva of
> purim , collecting for anything OTHER than matanos leevyonim] would
> definitionally be not a chillul Hashem , since it 'is in Hashem's
> hands " to quote you----though i think you would answer that the
> drunkenness was supposed to be part of a seudah , and their shtick
> precedes the seudah by many hours , and therefore merits no Divine
> sanction

No, I wouldn't say that, and I don't agree that it *is* a chilul hashem.
But I would say that one has to know one's limits, and while part of
being young is exploring those limits, which is how one learns where
they are, one must explore them with some care.  By all means push your
limits and risk a headache, but don't risk more than that.   And it should
go without saying that there is *no* mitzvah to drive on Purim, so all
serious drinking should take place after one has parked the car for the
night.

On the Rabba/R Zeira incident, see the LR's take here:
http://www.chabad.org.il/Magazines/Article.asp?ArticleID=381&;CategoryID=389

Note that RMB's and RLL's idea that this story is a counter to Rava's
memra is the position of Rabbi Efrayim, as cited by the Ran and the
Baal Hamaor, but that is not the Shulchan Aruch's psak.

But the LR's take is that it's all about knowing ones limits, and
R Zeira's fear that his limits were lower than Rabba thought they were.
Rabba was confident that either R Zeira's capacity had increased, or
else if a miracle was again needed it would take place.  R Zeira lacked
this confidence, which might be a flaw in him, but lepo'el he had to
respect his limits, and we don't see that Rabba pressured him to push
them, so it appears that Rabba agreed.

To put it in other words, R Zeira admired Rabba's bitachon and wished
he had it too, but recognised that he didn't, and therefore couldn't
allow himself to be in that situation again.  Because at the end of
the day every nivra is limited.

-- 
Zev Sero               All around myself I will wave the green willow
z...@sero.name          The myrtle and the palm and the citron for a week
                And if anyone should ask me the reason why I'm doing that
                I'll say "It's a Jewish thing; if you have a few minutes
                I'll explain it to you".


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