Volume 34: Number 32
Wed, 16 Mar 2016
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Arie Folger
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 22:06:34 +0100
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Moshiach Ben Yosef
R' Isaac Balbin wrote:
> Interestingly, the Gemora in Sanhedrin 92a says
>
> Three come when we are unaware (not focussed on them) The
> Moshiach, a found article (Yiush) and a Scorpion.
>
> How that Gemora fits into the Rambam's Ikkarim is very
> interesting, and I think it can if we follow Rav Y.H. Henkin's
> Tshuva in Bnei Bonim 3 Ma'amar 3, it is understood. He
> doesn't contend that we believe is that he will come every
> day, but rather that every day we believe he can come. A
> subtle but significant difference which he backs up.
I wonder, must we believe that mashiach can appear any minute? Since ani
verokhev 'al hachamor is be'ito, doesn't it rather follow that when
mashiach will come, it will be a slower process?
Doesn't the iqar of the Rambam (at least in the popular version) rather
read "I believe with complete faith he will come and I will wait every
day," meaning, waiting for the signs so we can join the wave, gather around
the mashiach as he becomes identified, but not that it is necessarily a
sudden process?
To begin the process, however, the candidate must first become a famous
person and engage in royal activities (not of the vanity of Rennaissance
European monarchs, I mean the real job of shoring up support, defending the
weak and downtrodden, protecting the oppressed, and generally gather
support necessary for establishing and / or being granted sovereignty.
Thoughts?
--
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://rabbifolger.net/
* Koscheres Geld (Podcast)
<http://rabbifolger.net/2016/02/15/koscheres-geld-podcast/>
* Kennt die Existenz nur den Chaos? G?ttliches Vorsehen im J?dischen
Gedankengut (Podcast)
<http://rabbifolger.net/
2016/02/14/kennt-die-existenz-nur-den-chaos-gttliches-vorsehen-im-judischen
-gedankengut-podcast/>
* Halacha zum Wochenabschnitt: Baruch Hu uWaruch Schemo
<http://rabbifolger.net/2016/02/11/halacha-zum-wochenabs
chnitt-baruch-hu-uwaruch-schemo/>
* Is there Order to the World? Providence in Jewish Thought
<http://rabbifolger.net/2016/02/09/is-there-order-to
-the-world-providence-in-jewish-thought/>
* What is Modern Orthodoxy (from a radio segment)
<http://rabbifolger.net/2016/02/08/what-is-modern-orthodoxy-fro
m-a-radio-segment/>
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Message: 2
From: Zev Sero
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 17:21:01 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Moshiach Ben Yosef
On 03/14/2016 05:06 PM, Arie Folger via Avodah wrote:
> I wonder, must we believe that mashiach can appear any minute?
Yes. "Hayom im bekoli tishma`u". And the beggar at the gates of Rome
changing his bandages one at a time, because at any moment he might get
the call.
> Since ani verokhev 'al hachamor is be'ito, doesn't it rather follow
> that when mashiach will come, it will be a slower process?
How so? First of all, who says it will be be`ito? Second, what has the
donkey got to do with it? Are you saying that since donkeys don't travel
as fast as horses or jet planes it will take him longer to get where he's
going? But his "coming" is when he starts, not when he finishes. And a
donkey can also set a fair pace; they even have donkey races!
> meaning, waiting for the signs so we can join the wave, gather around
> the mashiach as he becomes identified
Yes, and that could happen at any time.
> To begin the process, however, the candidate must first become a
> famous person and engage in royal activities
Nowadays a person can become famous within an hour. #Moshiach
--
Zev Sero All around myself I will wave the green willow
z...@sero.name The myrtle and the palm and the citron for a week
And if anyone should ask me the reason why I'm doing that
I'll say "It's a Jewish thing; if you have a few minutes
I'll explain it to you".
Go to top.
Message: 3
From: Arie Folger
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 00:24:31 +0100
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Moshiach Ben Yosef
On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 10:21 PM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:
> On 03/14/2016 05:06 PM, Arie Folger via Avodah wrote:
>
>> I wonder, must we believe that mashiach can appear any minute?
>>
>
> Yes. "Hayom im bekoli tishma`u". And the beggar at the gates of Rome
> changing his bandages one at a time, because at any moment he might get
> the call.
I must have expressed myself unclearly. I am asking, must we believe he can
come any second, and concommitant with that, that redemption will therefore
be quite instantaneously (kinds don't appear typically out of nowhere. It
takes years to be accepted, to build an administration and to achieve the
kinds of successes we expect mashiach to show)? Or must we hope all the
time for him to finally appear.
The latter possibility allows for a slower process of unfolding.
Lulei demistafina, I'd say bekhol yom akhakeh lo means I hope for him, not
that the process will necessarily be possibly completed in a day.
--
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://rabbifolger.net/
* Koscheres Geld (Podcast)
<http://rabbifolger.net/2016/02/15/koscheres-geld-podcast/>
* Kennt die Existenz nur den Chaos? G?ttliches Vorsehen im J?dischen
Gedankengut (Podcast)
<http://rabbifolger.net/
2016/02/14/kennt-die-existenz-nur-den-chaos-gttliches-vorsehen-im-judischen
-gedankengut-podcast/>
* Halacha zum Wochenabschnitt: Baruch Hu uWaruch Schemo
<http://rabbifolger.net/2016/02/11/halacha-zum-wochenabs
chnitt-baruch-hu-uwaruch-schemo/>
* Is there Order to the World? Providence in Jewish Thought
<http://rabbifolger.net/2016/02/09/is-there-order-to
-the-world-providence-in-jewish-thought/>
* What is Modern Orthodoxy (from a radio segment)
<http://rabbifolger.net/2016/02/08/what-is-modern-orthodoxy-fro
m-a-radio-segment/>
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Message: 4
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 21:18:19 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Moshiach Ben Yosef
On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 12:24am +0100, R Arie Folger wrote:
: I must have expressed myself unclearly. I am asking, must we believe he can
: come any second, and concommitant with that, that redemption will therefore
: be quite instantaneously (kinds don't appear typically out of nowhere. It
: takes years to be accepted, to build an administration and to achieve the
: kinds of successes we expect mashiach to show)? Or must we hope all the
: time for him to finally appear.
: The latter possibility allows for a slower process of unfolding.
It also doesn't mean one needs to believe he will be coming today;
rather that we wait today for when he comes.
After all, "im tismahmeiha chaqei lo" dates back to Chavaquq (2:3) and
yet R Yoachanan ben Torta tells R' Aqiva that grass will grow between
his cheeks before Ben David comes. (Y-mi Taanis 4:5) No one criticizes
him for not expecting mashiach imminently.
He can come any second, but we don't have to believe it's likely. At
least the gemara doesn't criticize RYBT's opinion.
I therefore think of "achaqeh lo bekhol yom, sheyavo" as I wait
daily. Just like I counted the days until my wedding even though
that meant I knew it wasn't imminent. So every day we wait for
him, because he will come. Not that he will come today, or in
a day.
-Micha
--
Micha Berger "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy'
mi...@aishdas.org 'Joy is nothing but Torah.'
http://www.aishdas.org 'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'"
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l
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Message: 5
From: Zev Sero
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 23:26:45 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Moshiach Ben Yosef
On 03/14/2016 07:24 PM, Arie Folger wrote:
> I must have expressed myself unclearly. I am asking, must we believe
> he can come any second, and concommitant with that, that redemption
> will therefore be quite instantaneously
That he may come at any second doesn't *have* to mean that he'll get
everything done in one second. He may come one second from now and
then take 40 years to complete his job. But he *may* also complete
it in one second. We don't have to believe that *will* happen, just
as we don't have to believe that he *will* come one second from now,
but we do have to believe that it *may* happen.
The proof that the geulah may happen in a single day is from the gemara's
explanation for why RYBZ forbade chodosh all day, instead of just until
noon, lest the BHMK be built suddenly, late on the 15th or overnight
on the 16th, and there may not be time to bring the omer before noon.
As Rashi points out, this can only happen if the BHMK comes down from
heaven already built, in one moment, and the gemara says this is a
possibility we have to take seriously, to the extent that every year
we must refrain from chodosh for six more hours, just in case this
happens next year. Now obviously if the Beis Din has advance notice
that this will happen then they will be prepared and will have the omer
brought by noon, so we see also that not only may the BHMK be built
overnight, but the entire geulah may happen overnight.
--
Zev Sero All around myself I will wave the green willow
z...@sero.name The myrtle and the palm and the citron for a week
And if anyone should ask me the reason why I'm doing that
I'll say "It's a Jewish thing; if you have a few minutes
I'll explain it to you".
Go to top.
Message: 6
From: Zev Sero
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 12:01:14 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Proposal for Transforming the Bar Mitzvah -- By
> In Jewish Action -- Winter 5766-2005
More than 10 years ago.
> In many Chareidi communities today most
> Bar Mitzvah boys read only maftir and the haftarah.
Or not even that. Some just get one of the seven aliyos, since getting
maftir doesn't show that the boy is a bar mitzvah.
When I am asked my opinion I suggest that unless the boy intends to
keep up his laining skills it's a waste of effort to learn them in the
first place, and he should rather learn nusach and how to lead davening,
which is a skill that he's more likely to put to use later.
For those who insist on laining, I suggest that it would be a pity to
let this hard-won skill go rusty after the big event, so he should start
learning the rishon of every third or fourth sedra, so that over the
course of a few years he'll be able to lain impromptu at a Monday or
Thursday minyan, which is a very useful skill to have.
--
Zev Sero All around myself I will wave the green willow
z...@sero.name The myrtle and the palm and the citron for a week
And if anyone should ask me the reason why I'm doing that
I'll say "It's a Jewish thing; if you have a few minutes
I'll explain it to you".
Go to top.
Message: 7
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 13:13:00 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Proposal for Transforming the Bar Mitzvah -- By
On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 12:01:14PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: When I am asked my opinion I suggest that unless the boy intends to
: keep up his laining skills it's a waste of effort to learn them in the
: first place, and he should rather learn nusach and how to lead davening,
: which is a skill that he's more likely to put to use later.
Good suggestion.
I also like the idea of a siyum.
And/or a chessed project. (To borrow a page from our non-O brethern.)
Eg a son born on the 2nd day of Chanukah noticed that tzedaqos that give
our Chanukah presents in hospitals think teddy bears and barbie dolls,
so he raised funds, shopped, and distributed gameboys and the like to
tweens and teens. My triplets... the boys raised $16,000 and bought Camp
Simcha Special new wheelchair friendly playground equipment, in memory
of a friend's sister. (The third triplet babysat autistic brothers so
that their father could get to shul Shabbos morning. But we're discussing
bar-, not bat mitzvah.) Some of the others got less creative, but
I think everyone gained /something/.
We've done all of the above, depending on the son. It is rare to
know at 13 that your kid is going to really focus his avodas Hashem
as a Levi, a Yissachar, or a Zevulun. (Most of us try to be some
of each.)
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger How wonderful it is that
mi...@aishdas.org nobody need wait a single moment
http://www.aishdas.org before starting to improve the world.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Anne Frank Hy"d
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Message: 8
From: saul newman
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 12:15:23 -0700
Subject: [Avodah] tora misinai bibliography
http://www.olamhaemet.com/2016/01/torah-misinai/
this website might be of some benefit , listing a variety of sources on
biblical critcism issues, from various points along the O spectrum
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