Avodah Mailing List

Volume 34: Number 15

Tue, 09 Feb 2016

• 1. Re: Vayichad Yisro - Disparaging Non-Jews (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Rav Shimon Schwab on Women Learning Torah (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: Vayichad Yisro - Disparaging Non-Jews ()
• 4. Un-supervised Events could be Un-Kosher Events (Prof. Levine)
• 5. Re: Rav Shimon Schwab on Women Learning Torah ()
• 6. Re: Rav Shimon Schwab on Women Learning Torah (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Vayichad Yisro - Disparaging Non-Jews (Lisa Liel)
• 8. Re: Rav Shimon Schwab on Women Learning Torah (Lisa Liel)

On Thu, Feb 04, 2016 at 10:28:42PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: The historical evidence seems overwhelming.  And AIUI this has been
: reinforced by recent genetic evidence.

Agreed.
What I questioned was the claim that a large number (10%) of the Roman
Empire were Jewish, not that a large percentage of Jews at the time
were geirim.

I also wondered what percentage of self-identifying Jews were actually
geirim, given that there were non-Perushi movements that proseltized,
and we were already discouraging geirus.

Personally, I think the Romans made sure there weren't that many Jews,
which is why it wouldn't take /that/ many converts for a lot of us to
descend from geirim. Between the First Jewish-Roman War, the Kitos War
in chu"l and Judea, and the Bar Kokhva Revolt, we weren't quite thriving
by the mid 2nd cent CE.

Second, the 10th generation doesn't necesssary mean 1024 (2^10th distinct
grandparents). If that were true, I would have some 280 trillion ancestors
contemporary to Rashi. People marry their cousins, especially when it is
far enough back for them to be unaware of the fact. In a shtetl, everyone
was relate to eachother numerous times over.

See http://www.torahmusings.com/2012/11/who-is-a-ger , section III,
"Who is a Ger: Only the Convert or his Children, too", by RMJBroyde.
The nafqa mina is who may marry a mamzer/-es.

The Tur holds geirus is dominant, any one parent being a geir is enough
to be a geir too, but I didn't see him mention any deadline.

The SA that geirus is recessive, requires both parents being geirim.
Along the way, note that the EhE 7:21 uses "ad kamah doros", which would
seem to indicate lav davqa a literal 10.

(The SA is following the Rambam (IB 15) apparently, and the Ran (Qiddushin,
Rif-daf 30b) takes issue with the Rambam.)

Looking at the codes, I would conclude "10 doros" was taken as an idiom
for "as long as pragmatically possible", perhaps a reference to Noach
to Avraham.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A wise man is careful during the Purim banquet
mi...@aishdas.org        about things most people don't watch even on
http://www.aishdas.org   Yom Kippur.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On 02/04/2016 05:14 PM, Ben Waxman via Avodah wrote:
> Just to point out something that may be obvious: By saying that a
> women can obtain prophecy without learning Torah, RSS is also
> inferring that a man requires Talmud Torah to obtain prophecy.  In
> that regard, RSS is agreeing with the Rambam and my original question
> then returns: why the differentiation?

If we narrow R Schwab's meaning to its original context, that of learning
Torah Lishmah, not for the purpose of knowing what it says, then I think
it becomes much more understandable.   The prerequisite for nevuah is
*knowledge*, which is contained in the Torah, so anyone who wants nevuah
must learn it;  but learning Torah for the sake of knowing what it says is
not what R Schwab is talking about.  If a man knows a subject well, but
learns the sugya anyway for the sake of the mitzvah, he becomesmore
receptive to nevuah because he is doing a mitzvah and thus attaching
himself to the Metzaveh.  A woman doing the same thing, learning a sugya
she already knows well, is not doing a mitzvah, and therefore the act of
learning doesn't increase her receptivity to nevuah.

I should add, though, that everyone agrees women are obligated to learn
those parts of Torah that contain knowledge they need in order to do their
mitzvos.  Since women are obligated by the pasuk "Da` es Elokei Avicha",
and by the commandment "Anochi Hashem Elokecha", it follows that they
are obligated to learn all that the Torah has to say about theology,
which is precisely the area that the Rambam says a potential navi needs
to know.   So really there is no contradiction.

-- 
Zev Sero               All around myself I will wave the green willow
z...@sero.name          The myrtle and the palm and the citron for a week
                And if anyone should ask me the reason why I'm doing that
                I'll say "It's a Jewish thing; if you have a few minutes
                I'll explain it to you".

 

From: Michael Orr via Avodah _michaelorr@rogers.com_ 
(mailto:michael...@rogers.com) 


>>And if you are going to be loose enough to say a  many-generation ger
is still a "ger", then you can say the same about  descendants of gerim,
(that they are gerim). That is the Gra's  interpretation, according to
Rav Steinsaltz' note as I read it, and WADR  seems to me to be the only
reasonable way to understand  it.<<

 
 
>>>>>
 
There is some discussion among the meforshim as to whether Yael the wife of 
 Chever Hakeni (she was the woman who killed the general Sisra in her tent) 
was a  giyores or a non-Jew.  In either case she and her husband were 
descendants  of Yisro, but those who say she and her husband were gerim are using 
the word  "gerim" to include all the descendants of Yisro for generations, 
as long as they  were a separate recognizable group from the rest of Klal 
Yisrael -- even though  they were Jews.
 
 

--Toby  Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
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Please see the article at http://tinyurl.com/hj6cy9l  While the 
article is written by COR much of it may apply anywhere.

From: Ben Waxman via Avodah  <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>

>> Just to point out something  that may be obvious: By saying that a women 
can obtain prophecy without  learning Torah, RSS is also inferring that a 
man requires Talmud Torah to  obtain prophecy.  In that regard, RSS is 
agreeing with the Rambam and  my original question then returns: why the 
differentiation?  <<

Ben
 
 
>>>>
 
Sorry I don't remember sources and have no time now to look things up but I 
 have seen in many places the idea that what men gain from learning Torah 
lishma,  women gain from being careful about tznius.  I've seen it said in  
regard to schar in olam haba as well as acquiring yiras Shamayim but I 
suppose  it would cover nevuah too. 
 
One place I saw this recently was in the book Halichos Bas Yisrael by R'  
Yitzchak Yaacov Fuchs.  BTW he has an excellent chapter complete with  many 
footnotes on the whole subject of women learning Torah.  For anyone  who 
really cares about this issue it would be very kedai to read it.
 
This does not answer RBW's question, "why the differentiation?" which I  
can't do al regel achas but again, R' Fuchs' book does go into that question 
at  some length.  I don't know if RBW's question is merely rhetorical and  
means to imply that he doesn't believe that men and women are profoundly  
different.  But whether it's a rhetorical question or an honest request for  
information, whole books have been written on  that subject! 
 
We have on this list at least three women who are talmidei chachamim (no I  
am emphatically not including myself -- I have never learned Gemara!).   
They are very admirable and wise, but it is a fact that despite such 
exceptions  to the rule, the rule still is that learning Torah Shebe'al Peh in depth 
does  little or nothing for the vast majority of women from a spiritual 
point of  view. I heard this from my father, who said something similar to what 
R'  Schwab has been quoted as saying.  I will add that my father offered to  
teach me Gemara (I declined) so obviously he did not consider it to be 100% 
 assur but it would have to be on a case by case basis.  



--Toby  Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
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On Thu, Feb 04, 2016 at 5:14pm EST, R Ben Waxman wrote:
: Just to point out something that may be obvious: By saying that a
: women can obtain prophecy without learning Torah, RSS is also
: inferring that a man requires Talmud Torah to obtain prophecy...

Actually, he could be using the case of women as proof that nevu'ah in
general doesn't require talmud Torah. Who other than the Rambam links
nevu'ah knowledge rather than deveiqus, moral imitation of the Borei or
some other quality?

(Bil'am may be an example of that, but he is too much of a special case to
qualify as proof or anything. And how much Torah did ANY of the nevi'im
before Moshe study?)

Gut Voch!
-Micha

On 2/5/2016 12:12 AM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> I do not know how much of the 10% of the Roman empire that converted
> to Judaism were actually geirim. Subtract out the Tzeduqi and Xian
> converts -- and any other sect that actually encouraged conversion,
> and how many geirim kehalakhah did the Perushim take in?

Not to mention the fact that to outsiders, Romans becoming Noachides 
would be considered as Romans becoming Jews.

Lisa

On 2/5/2016 12:14 AM, Ben Waxman via Avodah wrote:
> Just to point out something that may be obvious: By saying that a 
> women can obtain prophecy without learning Torah, RSS is also 
> inferring that a man requires Talmud Torah to obtain prophecy.  In 
> that regard, RSS is agreeing with the Rambam and my original question 
> then returns: why the differentiation?

It seems obvious that men lack something women have, and that that they 
need Talmud Torah to obtain it or to make up for its lack.


On 2/5/2016 5:26 PM, T6...@aol.com wrote:
> They are very admirable and wise, but it is a fact that despite such 
> exceptions to the rule, the rule still is that learning Torah Shebe'al 
> Peh in depth does little or nothing for the vast majority of women 
> from a spiritual point of view.

For the record, while I enjoy learning Gemara, I don't think it's ever 
done anything for me spiritually.  I didn't even know that was a thing.  
It's informative and intellectually stimulating, but that's about it.

Lisa


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