Avodah Mailing List

Volume 33: Number 167

Tue, 29 Dec 2015

• 1. tinok shenishba (saul newman)
• 2. duchening in EY (Prof. Levine)
• 3. Asara B'Tevet (Cantor Wolberg)
• 4. Re: Asara B'Tevet (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: Asara B'Tevet (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Asara B'Tevet (Cantor Wolberg)
• 7. Re: Asara B'Tevet (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: Asara B'Tevet (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: Asara B'Tevet (Cantor Wolberg)
• 10. Re: Asara B'Tevet (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: Asara B'Tevet (Cantor Wolberg)
• 12. Re: Asara B'Tevet (Zev Sero)
• 13. Re: Asara B'Tevet (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: Asara B'Tevet (Zev Sero)
• 15. Re: Asara B'Tevet (Micha Berger)
• 16. Re: Asara B'Tevet (Zev Sero)

in an offline conversation, a list member included a remark that 'the
tinok shenishba excuse is wearing thin' [in regard to hiloni behaviour
in the Holy Land]. i had previously heard such a line of reasoning,
that given the various forms of electronic media, it is impossible to
have an excuse not to know the Truth, and drew conclusions from that fact.

i feel this is a very dangerous reasoning for the following reason. one
can argue that this philosophy led to a collateral damage that probably
annihilated 2 million haredi european jews. [tell me if that number
is off]. -- as the argument easily can be made that the OTD's of europe
were not tinok's, thereby sealing their fate in a massive Divine Decree --
we can't know for certain, but it is certainly logical. to reverbalize
such an argument in our 90% OTD times, risks > 1 million hareilim in
the event of a Middle East nuclear event as a second Divine Decree.

we must realistically say that the yield of the BT machinery is quite
low -- and has the side dis-benefit of educating 1000's of Tinok's:
effectively creating a whole cadre of now culpable non-BT's: those who
were shown The Light, but reject it.

i don't know what's better for those communities concerned that the
behaviour of others to their halachic [or a-halachic] left risk Divine
wrath on the collective society -- try mostly unsuccessfully to improve
others; or to try to improve their half of the equation...

At 03:39 PM 12/28/2015, R. Eli Turkel wrote:

><<What is the practice with regard to moving the chazzan for duchening in
>Israel for those shuls who have the chazzan lead daily services from next
>to the Aron Kodesh? Does he move? >>
>
>Why ask only about EY. Doesnt the same question apply in chul for yomtov.
>In the Beit Midrash I grew up in NYC the chazzan always davened next to the
>aron kodesh. From my dim memories of long ago the chazzan did not change on
>musaf of yomtov but I couldnt be absolutely sure.

At the YI of Ave J Hashkama Minyan that I run in Brooklyn the chazzan 
davens musaf from the shulchan where we lein and not from the amud up 
front on Yomim Tovim This is so he can be included in the brachos of 
the Kohanim.

I have seen this done in other shuls in Brooklyn.

YL

I came across the following for what it is worth. It seems as if the geonim agrees with this being valid and a very 
good source is Yechezkel. Though it is obviously not followed in practice, it certainly exists in theory based on Yechezkel.

If a public fast falls on Shabbat, it is delayed until after Shabbat since fasting is not permitted on Shabbat. 
The one exception is Yom Kippur, which, based on a verse in the Torah, is observed even if it falls on Shabbat.  
Fascinatingly, the Geonim also write that the same was once true of the tenth of Tevet, since it is written of the tenth of Tevet: 
'On this very day' (YechezkeI 2). In our calendar calculation, however, the tenth of Tevet can never fall on Shabbat. 
One would wonder why the 10th of Tevet would've been observed on Shabbat, being a so-called minor fast day.  
The brilliant answer given is that since this day is the beginning of the whole chain of calamities, the beginning of anything 
is often times the most significant and determines the course and ultimate outcome.

On 12/28/2015 07:50 PM, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote:
>   It seems as if the geonim agrees with this being valid and a very
> good source is Yechezkel.

What geonim?   I don't believe any geonim mention this idea.
As I wrote earlier, AFAIK it's the Abudraham's own chiddush.
The "gezera shava" from Yechezkel is not a source at all; one can't
make up ones own gezeros shavos, and there doesn't seem to be any
source for this one.   And as I also wrote earlier, I think the only
reason anyone has ever taken it seriously is because it's hypothetical,
so it's just a fun idea to bat around; if it were halacha lemaaseh
the Abudraham would probably never have proposed it in the first place,
and if he had it would have immediately been dismissed out of hand by
everyone else.

-- 
Zev Sero               All around myself I will wave the green willow
z...@sero.name          The myrtle and the palm and the citron for a week
                And if anyone should ask me the reason why I'm doing that
                I'll say "It's a Jewish thing; if you have a few minutes
                I'll explain it to you".

On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 08:45:32PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: What geonim?   I don't believe any geonim mention this idea.
: As I wrote earlier, AFAIK it's the Abudraham's own chiddush.
: The "gezera shava" from Yechezkel is not a source at all; one can't
: make up ones own gezeros shavos, and there doesn't seem to be any
: source for this one...

It can't be a real gezeirah shavah. First, because Yechezqeil is neither
chumash nor Esther, so it cannot be darshened. And second, because 10
beTeves is derabbanan, so it wouldn't be subject to nor need a real
gezeirah shavah.

However, it is a reasonable implication. There real derashah for fasting
for Yom Kippur on Shabbos is from the words "be'etzem hayom hazeh".
Then you have Yechezqeil using the same phrase to describe 10 beTeves.
He must have known what it sounded like when he echoed the idiom.

BTW, beris milah too is "be'etzem hayom hazah" and overrides Shabbos.

: so it's just a fun idea to bat around; if it were halacha lemaaseh
: the Abudraham would probably never have proposed it in the first place,
: and if he had it would have immediately been dismissed out of hand by
: everyone else.

But if it were just "fun", the Beis Yoseif (OC 550) wouldn't quote the
Avudraham. This is after quoting Rashi and the Rambam, who say all 4
fasts would be pushed off until Sunday. And right before saying that he
does not know the Avudraham's source.

So I think we're overplaying the import on both sides. More thn
a fun idea to bat around, but not the accepted shitah of the more
famous rishonim, and questioned by the author of the SA.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Between stimulus & response, there is a space.
mi...@aishdas.org        In that space is our power to choose our
http://www.aishdas.org   response. In our response lies our growth
Fax: (270) 514-1507      and our freedom. - Victor Frankl, (MSfM)

I guess you can say it?s speculation.
However, I find it hard to accept that since it has no practical implications,
it?s therefore safe to pay around with. A not so perfect analogy is that if one
has a bad dream Friday, he may (or should) fast on Shabbos. One may think
this is off the wall, but if that is so, then our discussion is more than their having fun.

> On Dec 28, 2015, at 9:30 PM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:
> 
> On 12/28/2015 09:21 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>> 
>> But if it were just "fun", the Beis Yoseif (OC 550) wouldn't quote the
>> Avudraham. This is after quoting Rashi and the Rambam, who say all 4
>> fasts would be pushed off until Sunday. And right before saying that he
>> does not know the Avudraham's source.
>> 
>> So I think we're overplaying the import on both sides. More thn
>> a fun idea to bat around, but not the accepted shitah of the more
>> famous rishonim, and questioned by the author of the SA.
> 
> My speculation is precisely that the BY quotes it only because it's a
> fascinating idea, and it has no practical implications so it's safe
> to play around with.   If it were relevant to practical halacha I don't
> think he'd have been so eager to quote it, and therefore most people
> would never even have heard of it.
> 
> -- 
> Zev Sero               All around myself I will wave the green willow
> z...@sero.name          The myrtle and the palm and the citron for a week
>               And if anyone should ask me the reason why I'm doing that
>               I'll say "It's a Jewish thing; if you have a few minutes
>               I'll explain it to you".

On 12/28/2015 09:55 PM, Cantor Wolberg wrote:
> I guess you can say it?s speculation.
> However, I find it hard to accept that since it has no practical
> implications, it?s therefore safe to pay around with. A not so
> perfect analogy is that if one has a bad dream Friday, he may (or
> should) fast on Shabbos.

That *is* practical halacha.  It's not hypothetical at all.  And, as
one would expect in a discussion of practical halacha, the sources
all sides rely on are solid.  Whereas here we have a fascinating
idea but with a very weak basis, so if it were a question of practical
halacha it would be dismissed, but since it's only hypothetical it's
safe to have fun with.

-- 
Zev Sero               All around myself I will wave the green willow
z...@sero.name          The myrtle and the palm and the citron for a week
                And if anyone should ask me the reason why I'm doing that
                I'll say "It's a Jewish thing; if you have a few minutes
                I'll explain it to you".

On 12/28/2015 09:21 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>
> But if it were just "fun", the Beis Yoseif (OC 550) wouldn't quote the
> Avudraham. This is after quoting Rashi and the Rambam, who say all 4
> fasts would be pushed off until Sunday. And right before saying that he
> does not know the Avudraham's source.
>
> So I think we're overplaying the import on both sides. More thn
> a fun idea to bat around, but not the accepted shitah of the more
> famous rishonim, and questioned by the author of the SA.

My speculation is precisely that the BY quotes it only because it's a
fascinating idea, and it has no practical implications so it's safe
to play around with.   If it were relevant to practical halacha I don't
think he'd have been so eager to quote it, and therefore most people
would never even have heard of it.

-- 
Zev Sero               All around myself I will wave the green willow
z...@sero.name          The myrtle and the palm and the citron for a week
                And if anyone should ask me the reason why I'm doing that
                I'll say "It's a Jewish thing; if you have a few minutes
                I'll explain it to you".

Kindly tell us the source.


> On Dec 28, 2015, at 10:22 PM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:
> 
> That *is* practical halacha.  It's not hypothetical at all.  And, as
> one would expect in a discussion of practical halacha, the sources
> all sides rely on are solid. 

On 12/28/2015 10:27 PM, Cantor Wolberg wrote:
>> On Dec 28, 2015, at 10:22 PM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:

>> That *is* practical halacha.  It's not hypothetical at all.  And, as
>> one would expect in a discussion of practical halacha, the sources
>> all sides rely on are solid.

> Kindly tell us the source.

It's not at all controversial.  I hadn't realised that you were just
asking for the references.

Shabbos 11a, Taanis 12b
Rambam Taanis 1:12
Shulchan Aruch OC 288:4

-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

On Dec 28, 2015, at 10:51 PM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:
> It's not at all controversial.  I hadn't realised that you were just
> asking for the references.
> 
> Shabbos 11a, Taanis 12b
> Rambam Taanis 1:12
> Shulchan Aruch OC 288:4

Okay, that's what I asked.

Regarding the use of "controversial," I have heard at least one O. rav
say that the fast for a bad dream on Shabbos was more theoretical than
practical and that it could be pushed off to Sunday.

Do you disagree with that?

I'll tell you another thing I came across which may also be considered
by you as "having some fun" is the following:
According to some Talmudic authorities, women were counted in the minyan
for offering the Korban Pesach (e.g. Rav, Rav Kahana, Pesachim 79b).

On 12/28/2015 10:57 PM, Cantor Wolberg wrote:
> Okay, that's what I asked.
> Regarding the use of "controversial," I have heard at least one
> O. rav say that the fast for a bad dream on Shabbos was more
> theoretical than practical and that it could be pushed off to Sunday.
> Do you disagree with that?

The gemara and all the poskim down to the Shulchan Aruch disagree with it.
If one is in the habit of fasting taanis chalom at all, then one fasts
on Shabbos just as one does in the week, because to have its effect it
has to be done on the same day as the fast. I don't know anyone who
actually fasts taanis chalom at all, on shabbos or in the week, because
nowadays people don't take dreams as seriously as our ancestors did.

> I'll tell you another thing I came across which may also be
> considered by you as "having some fun" is the following: According to
> some Talmudic authorities, women were counted in the minyan for
> offering the Korban Pesach (e.g. Rav, Rav Kahana, Pesachim 79b).

What minyan? There is no requirement for a minyan, and neither Rav
nor Rav Kahana say that women count for one. The discussion there,
which is very hypothetical, is about how one calculates whether the
majority of the entire Jewish people are tamei. Does one count women
(on both sides) in this calculation, or only men? What if the majority
of men are tahor but an even larger majority of women are tamei, or
the reverse. But it should be obvious that such a census would be
impossible to actually carry out. Practically, we would always have
to rely on it being obvious that the majority is tamei (e.g. Moshiach
came yesterday and there's been no time to make a para adumah and get
everyone tahor), or that the majority is tahor.

However one case where it's (AFAIK) uncontroversial that women do count
in a minyan is for kiddush haShem.

--
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

On 2015-12-28 9:30 pm, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> My speculation is precisely that the BY quotes it only because it's a
> fascinating idea, and it has no practical implications so it's safe
> to play around with....

I don't see it, because the BY doesn't quote "fascinating ideas"; this
is a work about how to reach halakhah lema'aseh. I mean, maybe if it 
were
the Rosh or the Rambam, you could stretch and say that he couldn't 
leave
it undiscussed and not explicitly dismissed. But the Avudraham makes
lots of actual halachic statements the BY doesn't bother citing. There
would be no point in quoting his plaything.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger               Here is the test to find whether your 
mission
mi...@aishdas.org          on Earth is finished:
http://www.aishdas.org     if you're alive, it isn't.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Richard Bach

On 12/29/2015 09:30 AM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
>
> I don't see it, because the BY doesn't quote "fascinating ideas"; this
> is a work about how to reach halakhah lema'aseh.

If the BY confined himself to opinions that are relevant to halacha
lemaaseh then why would he quote an opinion that is guaranteed *not*
to be lema`aseh, even if he agreed with it completely?   Clearly he
didn't quote it for any practical purpose, so why did he, especially
when, as you say, he often doesn't bother to quote the Abudraham's
psakim that *are* lema`aseh?  I think it's because, like all of us,
he was fascinated by it, and since it was "safe" he felt justified in
introducing it to his readers.   Even strictly halachic works include
the occasional vertel or bit of agadeta, "yeinah shel torah", and this
is practically agadeta, though of a halachic flavour.  In other words,
he repeated it for the same reason that we all do, almost every time
the topic of Asara Betevet comes up; it's a startling idea, and also
gives the fast a bit more importance, perhaps to make up for its
short duration in the northern hemisphere.

-- 
Zev Sero               All around myself I will wave the green willow
z...@sero.name          The myrtle and the palm and the citron for a week
                And if anyone should ask me the reason why I'm doing that
                I'll say "It's a Jewish thing; if you have a few minutes
                I'll explain it to you".

On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 01:31:29PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: On 12/29/2015 09:30 AM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
:> I don't see it, because the BY doesn't quote "fascinating ideas"; this
:> is a work about how to reach halakhah lema'aseh.

: If the BY confined himself to opinions that are relevant to halacha
: lemaaseh then why would he quote an opinion that is guaranteed *not*
: to be lema`aseh, even if he agreed with it completely? ...

You're still looking at the issue as pegging the Avudraham's position
in one of two extremes. The BYU is a sefer of pesaq; thus, if he thinks
an opinion is worth explicit dismissal, that opinion isn't being thrown
out there for fun.

And yes, the BY usually skips hilkhisah dimishicha, but here is obviously
didn't, because it touches on the Tur's point. But to go to the opposite
extreme, and saying he is dealing with idle speculation, even less fits
the book.

And more relevantly, the hashkafic underpinnings of the idea that 10
beTeves might be unique can't be summarily dismissed. One can argue that
perhaps Rashi and the Rambam pasqened differently not only on technical
halachic grouns but because they also reject the hashkafic implication.
Or one can argue that perhaps the very fact that by 10 beTeves it comes
to a machloqes is enough to make the hashkafic point.

In general, I haven't seen a rule for how various rabbanim extrapolate
from machloqes to taam hamitzvah. Another example: RSRH makes much out
of the fact that according to the Rambam, it is the 8th string that is
tekheiles. Does that mean RSRH would hold like the Rambam, or is he
making a hashkafic point out of the fact that the shitah simply exists?

:                                  Even strictly halachic works include
: the occasional vertel or bit of agadeta, "yeinah shel torah", and this
: is practically agadeta, though of a halachic flavour.

I do not recall any in the BY, and for that matter, after OC 1, nothing
comes to mind from his SA either. It is certain rare enough to not be
the default position -- if you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras.

: he repeated it for the same reason that we all do, almost every time
: the topic of Asara Betevet comes up; it's a startling idea, and also
: gives the fast a bit more importance, perhaps to make up for its
: short duration in the northern hemisphere.

Actually, it is repeated on-list annually because baalei agadah use the
idea so frequently someone heard a new variant. It is your opinion that
they are all off-base because the Avudraham's position isn't even worth
such consideration. I really would prefer to understand things in a way
that justifies the Chasam Sofer's or R' Yonasan Eibshitz's spending time
on the notion.

Apparently they take the "the fact it's even a shitah tells us something"
approach to this machloqes. Which would not be consistent with the just
for fun attitude you've been advocating.

BTW, the CS (derashah in Toras Moshe for Vayiqra - 7 Adar, vol II pg 9b
"kasuv") suggests that the reason 10 beTeves gives us more motive to
fast on Shabbos is that it's more like a taanis chalom than the other
fasts. The day HQBH gave us the sentence of churban bayis rishon was the
day he let Nevuchadnetzar lay siege to Y-m. And thus it's on 10 beTeves
that we are judged as to whether it will be rebuilt this year. Thus,
like a taanis chalom, 10 beTeves is a fast about a future event, not a
past one.

RYE (Ya'aros Devash, 2nd derashah for 9 Teves, vol I pg 32) says it's
because aschalta deparanusah adifah. I saw a LOR attribute the same
statement to the Benei Yisaschar as well, but I don't have a mar'eh maqom.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Every second is a totally new world,
mi...@aishdas.org        and no moment is like any other.
http://www.aishdas.org           - Rabbi Chaim Vital
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On 12/29/2015 03:02 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> : he repeated it for the same reason that we all do, almost every time
> : the topic of Asara Betevet comes up; it's a startling idea, and also
> : gives the fast a bit more importance, perhaps to make up for its
> : short duration in the northern hemisphere.
>
> Actually, it is repeated on-list annually because baalei agadah use the
> idea so frequently someone heard a new variant. It is your opinion that
> they are all off-base because the Avudraham's position isn't even worth
> such consideration. I really would prefer to understand things in a way
> that justifies the Chasam Sofer's or R' Yonasan Eibshitz's spending time
> on the notion.
>
> Apparently they take the "the fact it's even a shitah tells us something"
> approach to this machloqes. Which would not be consistent with the just
> for fun attitude you've been advocating.

No, that's the exact opposite of what I've been saying.  My point is
precisely that it's *agadah*, and the BY brings it for its aggadic
value, not because it's a serious shita in halacha.  And perhaps that
even the Avudraham didn't really mean it as a serious shita in halacha,
but only proposed it because he knew it was impossible, and made an
interesting point with aggadic implications.


-- 
Zev Sero               All around myself I will wave the green willow
z...@sero.name          The myrtle and the palm and the citron for a week
                And if anyone should ask me the reason why I'm doing that
                I'll say "It's a Jewish thing; if you have a few minutes
                I'll explain it to you".


------------------------------



_______________________________________________
Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


------------------------------


***************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."


A list of common acronyms is available at
        http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/acronyms.cgi
(They are also visible in the web archive copy of each digest.)