Avodah Mailing List

Volume 33: Number 163

Fri, 18 Dec 2015

• 1. Re: Halacha and history (elazar teitz)
• 2. Re: halachah and history (Eli Turkel)
• 3. Re: halachah and history (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: halachah and history (Lisa Liel)
• 5. Re: halachah and history (Eli Turkel)
• 6. An Avel Leaving His Home During Shivah (Prof. Levine)
• 7. difficult to perform Mitzvos (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 8. women's learning (saul newman)
• 9. The Many Facets of Asarah B'Teves (Prof. Levine)
• 10. Re: The Many Facets of Asarah B'Teves (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: women's learning (Rich, Joel)
• 12. Re: difficult to perform Mitzvos (Rich, Joel)
• 13. Re: An Avel Leaving His Home During Shivah (Rich, Joel)
• 14. Re: The Many Facets of Asarah B'Teves (Ben Waxman)
• 15. Re: women's learning (saul newman)

<We know there had to be backup KGs from Yoma.  The succession of KGs
described in Ezra/Nechemia makes it pretty likely that this was often
the son of the serving KG, but it didn't have to be.  So you could have
a KG who didn't serve.>

     The mishna in Yoma does not call for a backup KG, but for a
backup *to* the
KG, ready to serve if necessary, but who did not become a KG unless
actually pressed into service.

EMT
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20151217/dcb929e1/attachment-0001.htm>

On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 12:45 AM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> Well, if you buy into a different piece of my reasoning, that perhaps
> those loyal to HQBH had their own appointed "kohein gadol" even though
> a Misyavein held the title and served in a Zeusified temple, then you
> could say that the Yochanan KG wasn't one from the list just as much as
> I could suggest it's Mordchai-ben-Yochanan who was the "KG in exile",
> (so to speak).

Of course this is pure speculation. There is know hint the sources of a
Cohen gadol in exile.

Yochanan kohen gadol is depicted as being kohen gadol for 80 years,
issuing several takanot and becoming a Sadduccee at the end of his life.

It would seem hard to reconcile this with the father of Matisyahu and also
being an "unofficial" cohen gadol.

-- 
Eli Turkel

On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 10:09:47AM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
: Of course this is pure speculation. There is know hint the sources of a
: Cohen gadol in exile.

Agreed. Although (as I mentioned) there is something of a possible
successor when they set up a Nasi to counter the Hasmonean king. IOW,
this "we have the real KG, just as soon as he could serve" is something
the Perushim would very plausibly do.

: Yochanan kohen gadol is depicted as being kohen gadol for 80 years...

No, it wouldn't be THE Yochanan KG. He did serve. I was just saying that
this KG in exile idea works for either Matisyahu or his father. And once
we posit that such a kohein could exist, we could equally posit that it
was yet another and unlisted Yochanan as much as we could posit that it
was Matisyahu.

Whomever it was would NOT be on Josephus's succession list.

On another note, I uncritically accepted the idea that Yehoyariv was
banned from getting the kehunah gedolah. Do you have a maqor? Why would
there even be such a ban, given that the honor was given to Tzadoq's
descendents. In effect 23 mishmaros were excluded, not just Yehoyariv.
The Chashmonaim would be out of the running either way.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I always give much away,
mi...@aishdas.org        and so gather happiness instead of pleasure.
http://www.aishdas.org           -  Rachel Levin Varnhagen
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On 12/17/2015 10:09 AM, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 12:45 AM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
>> Well, if you buy into a different piece of my reasoning, that perhaps
>> those loyal to HQBH had their own appointed "kohein gadol" even though
>> a Misyavein held the title and served in a Zeusified temple, then you
>> could say that the Yochanan KG wasn't one from the list...

> Of course this is pure speculation. There is no hint the sources of a
> Cohen gadol in exile.

> Yochanan kohen gadol is depicted as being kohen gadol for 80 years,
> issuing several takanot and becoming a Sadduccee at the end of his life.

> It would seem hard to reconcile this with the father of Matisyahu and also
> being an "unofficial" cohen gadol.

Unless there was more than one Yochanan Kohen Gadol.

[Email #2. -micha]

On 12/17/2015 2:19 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 10:09:47AM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
>: Of course this is pure speculation. There is know hint the sources of a
>: Cohen gadol in exile.

> Agreed. Although (as I mentioned) there is something of a possible
> successor when they set up a Nasi to counter the Hasmonean king. IOW,
> this "we have the real KG, just as soon as he could serve" is something
> the Perushim would very plausibly do.

After all, we had a Nasi in exile.  Surely the head of the Sadducee 
Sanhedrin was called the "Nasi".  But we didn't recognize him as such.  
We didn't even record the name(s) of any such "Nasi".  When Shimon ben 
Shetach was in exile, he was still Nasi -- from our POV, though not from 
the Sadducee POV.  So is it such a stretch to say that the same was true 
of the Kohen Gadol?

Lisa

[Micha:]
> On another note, I uncritically accepted the idea that Yehoyariv was
> banned from getting the kehunah gedolah. Do you have a maqor? Why would
> there even be such a ban, given that the honor was given to Tzadoq's
> descendents. In effect 23 mishmaros were excluded, not just Yehoyariv.
> The Chashmonaim would be out of the running either way.

REMT pointed out to me that the Mishmeret of Yehoyariv was not banned
from serving but rather they were subsumed under a different mishmar.

The Yerushalmi Taanit 4:5 is critical of the mishmeret of Yehoyariv
though its not clear at what point in history. similarly for R E. Hakalir.

I admit that much is speculation that the mishmar of Yehoraiv was not
considered one of the upper echelon and so the Kohen gadol would not
have come from that mishmar.

However if Micha has his speculations I am entitled to mine.

Lisa mentions
> Surely the head of the Sadducee Sanhedrin was called the "Nasi".  But we
> didn't recognize him as such.

This comes back to an old historical debate. It is fairly clear that for
many years the Sanhedrin was run by Sadducees. If so who are the zugot
mentioned in Pirkei avot as Nasi and Av Bet din.

Who established the new moon and hence the chagim during these many years?
Nevertheless I have trouble accepting that there were 2 cohanim gedolim
(like 2 popes or anti-popes).

One of the jobs of the Cohen Gadol is to officiate at Yom Kippur. Which
high priest did that? We know from the gemara that many of the high
priests near the end of the second Temple were not worthy and possibly
were Saduccees. Nevertheless the Pharisees did not set up their own
candidate.

As I understand we have not reached any consensus as to whom is Yochanan
Kohen Gadol that ruled for 80 years, issued takanot and became a Saduccee
at the end of his life.


[Email #2. -micha]

I am currently reading an article by Vered Noam on Chazal and
Josephus. She points out that nowhere in Chazal is the names of the
Maccabee brothers mentioned including Judah. Even in al hanissim we are
told of Mattityahu and his sons. OTOH Josephus never mentions Hillel
and Shamai or even R Yochanan ben Zakkai who was his contemporary.
In fact the story about R Yochanan ben Zakkai telling Vespasian that he
will become Emperor, Josephus attributes to himself.


[Email #3. -micha]

The gemara in Sotah 33a brings a story that Yochanan Kohen Gadol heard a
heavenly voice that the young men who went to Antioch were victorious and
Rashi comments that is refers to priests from the Chashmanoim fighting
the Greeks.

Thus according to Rashi Yochanan Kohen Gadol was a contemporary of
the Chashmanoim. This fits Yochanan the son of Shimon since there were
still battles with the Greeks in his time (in fact his independence was
revoked for 3 years by the Seeucids). It Certainly would not apply to
any high priest before the Macabees eg the various Chonya/Onias. See
also the gemara in Rosh Hashana 18b. Abaye identifies him with Yannai
while Rava states that Yannai and Yochanan are separate people.

Note there is an obvious mistake in the gemara as the Macabbees never
reached Antioch. The correct version should be went against Anitiochus.

As an aside the Artscroll gemara at the end of Yoma I has an appendix
on the Kohanim Gedolim.
They mention that we know of 3 people named Yochanan (Mattiyahu's father ,
son and grandson).
If it is Mattiyahu's father artscroll says he maybe the same person as
Chonyo III (similar to what Lisa has claimed) . Another version connects
him with the son of Matityahu which would disagree with Hashmanoim which
claims he was killed in battle. Several traditional historians identify
him as the grandson of Mattityahu . In fact Josephus relates that JOhn
Hyrcanus became a Sadducee late in life. However, we have no record of
any of these being high priest for 80 years.

Somewhat similar to Micha Yitzchak Isaac HaLevi suggests that usually 2
high priests existed simultaeously one was in the temple and the other
was a religious leader while occasionally the two offices were held by
the same person (this also seems to be pure speculation - for example
it is clear that the chashmanoim kings held both powers

-- 
Eli Turkel

See http://tinyurl.com/hz7lmc4


llev...@stevens.edu

is there any conflict between  - according to the pain/trouble is the
reward on the one hand
and on the other hand
Gd concealed the value of Mitzvos so that they would all be performed with
equal enthusiasm

Sechar PeSiYos seems to be appreciated even where one takes an
unnecessarily longer route or walks to a more distant Shule
which seems to suggest we should not look for Halachically easier pathways
Are there any examples of HKBH preferring we find an easier solution to
Halachic issues other than Yegia KaPecha and the MaHarSha - that the
TChacham enjoys both worlds A] his reward for studying and B] he gets to
eat what others would have disqualified


Best,

Meir G. Rabi
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20151218/a0dabaa5/attachment-0001.htm>

http://www.thejewishweek.com/editorial-opinion/opinion
/women-studying-torah-facts-ground

setup---  woman attending daf yomi , told can't come certain days because
of the viewpoint of the teacher.

question ----  is either party wrong ?  ie  is it assur for a woman to
learn gemara/dafyomi ?  is it ok  [ or even mandatory ]  to   not let her
attend?    and if so, is  it  more  halachic  , or  more  disrupting the
male bonding aspects ?

and allied to that , if a woman insists to say kadish out loud , is it ok
for a shul to say  'undertone or out-of-here'  ?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20151217/eba51077/attachment-0001.htm>

The upcoming Fast of Asarah BTeves is quite exceptional. Aside for the
fact that the fast is really meant to incorporate three separate Fast
Days, unique to this fast is that it is the only one that we do actually
observe as a fast on a Friday. Even Tisha BAv, which commemorates the
actual destructions of our Batei HaMikdash, gets pushed off. Yet, next
Tuesday, for a fast best known for being the years shortest (for everyone
in the Northern Hemisphere), all of Klal Yisrael will fast. The question
is why...

To find out, read the article "Insights Into Halacha: The Many Facets
of Asarah B'Teves".
<http://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/5324>

For all of the Mareh Mekomos / sources, just ask.
<http://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha>
Insights Into Halacha is a weekly series of contemporary Halacha
articles. If you enjoyed the article, please share it with friends and
family. To sign up to receive weekly articles simply email me.

kol tuv and Good Shabbos,
Y. Spitz
Yerushalayim
<mailto:ysp...@ohr.edu>ysp...@ohr.edu

On 12/17/2015 11:38 AM, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> unique to this fast is that it is the only one that we do actually
> observe as a fast on a Friday. Even Tisha BAv, which commemorates the
> actual destructions of our Batei HaMikdash, gets pushed off.

Not true.  Tisha B'av can't be on Friday.  If it were possible for
it to fall on a Friday, there is no reason to believe we would delay it.

-- 
Zev Sero               All around myself I will wave the green willow
z...@sero.name          The myrtle and the palm and the citron for a week
                And if anyone should ask me the reason why I'm doing that
                I'll say "It's a Jewish thing; if you have a few minutes
                I'll explain it to you".

> setup -- woman attending daf yomi, told can't come certain days because
> of the viewpoint of the teacher.

It sounded to me like the maggid shiur felt it was assur. To me the
question was what is the shul's policy? -- if they disagree, they should
get another maggid shiur. As to shul davening practices, I would say
the same thing. I might not agree with certain shul practices, but if
it's a judgment call (which I think this is), it is up to them.

KT
Joel RIch

> Are there any examples of HKBH preferring we find an easier solution to
> Halachic issues other than Yegia KaPecha and the MaHarSha -- that the
> TChacham enjoys both worlds A] his reward for studying and B] he gets
> to eat what others would have disqualified

Assumedly any mitzvah that we are not required to do because of tircha,
HKB"H would prefer we find some way to do in non-tircha ways (e.g 20%
limit from takanat Usha,distance for getting water for hand washing,Aliya
lregel...)

KT
Joel Rich

The practice of sitting in different places has become more common in
my community over time (e.g. sit at niftar's home in Boston then come
back to New Jersey to sit so friends don't have to shlep) It would be
an interesting study to see what amcha and Rabbis have said/done (much
like the 2nd day yom tov thing) for this change to have occurred.

KT
Joel Rich

I think that they mean in a theoretical, eidut determining the chodesh, 
type situation.

Ben

On 12/18/2015 3:08 AM, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
>
> Not true.  Tisha B'av can't be on Friday.  If it were possible for
> it to fall on a Friday, there is no reason to believe we would delay it. 

On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 5:55 PM, Rich, Joel <JR...@sibson.com> wrote:
> It  sounded to me like the maggid  shiur felt it was assur.  To me the
> question was what is the shul's policy? -- if they disagree, they should get
> another maggid shiur.  As to shul davening practices, I would say the same
> thing.  I might not agree with certain shul practices, but if it's a
> judgment call (which I think this is), it is up to them.

sounds you mean it's not a befeirush halacha [either inyan]  ,  but rather
cultural/sectional.


------------------------------



_______________________________________________
Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


------------------------------


***************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."


A list of common acronyms is available at
        http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/acronyms.cgi
(They are also visible in the web archive copy of each digest.)