Avodah Mailing List

Volume 33: Number 156

Fri, 04 Dec 2015

• 1. Re: Ahab (Akiva Miller)
• 2. Re: Ahab (Daniel M. Israel)
• 3. Re: submission to an authority (Akiva Miller)
• 4. Re: Kosher Turkey and Women Rabbis and Mesorah (Daniel M. Israel)
• 5. Re: submission to an authority (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Halachos of Turkey (Daniel M. Israel)
• 7. Re: Kosher Turkey and Women Rabbis and Mesorah (Micha Berger)
• 8. Saturday evening begin Prayer for Rain (Ari Meir Brodsky)
• 9. Re: submission to an authority (David Riceman)
• 10. Re: Kosher Turkey and Women Rabbis and Mesorah (Akiva Miller)
• 11. Re: Ahab ()
• 12. Re: Ahab (Zev Sero)
• 13. Re: Ahab ()

> Whatever Yosef and Moshe did, that wasn't good enough for Yitzhaq
> and Yaacov, who dafka had to marry family. Locals were out. So my
> original point remains: For at least some of the Avot, it wasn't
> simply patriarchal descent.

Reread what you wrote. Are you referring to Yosef and Moshe as "some of the
Avot"? That's an error. Yitzhaq and Yaacov were among the Avot, but Yosef
and Moshe were not.

I am not harping on linguistic details, but rather focusing on a point
which is essential to this discussion: The women married by Avraham,
Yitzchak and Yaakov were markedly different than the women married by
others of that time period.

Sarah's paternal grandfather was Terach.

Rivka's father's paternal grandfather was Terach.

Rachel and Leah - their paternal grandfather's paternal grandfather was
Terach.

Anyone notice a pattern? For the avos, it wasn't enough to stay away from
Canaan, or any other tribe for that matter. They had to marry davka within
the family of Terach, and with "family" being defined patrilinially.

I do not pretend to know WHY this was so important. But it does seem to me
that it was a critical factor for Yitzchak and Yaakov's mates. And it also
seems that once the 12 shevatim were born, this ceased to be so important,
and I don't pretend to understand that either.

Anyone know the parentage of Bilhah and Zilpah? Maybe the importance
stopped already when Yaakov married Rachel and Leah.

These are just some thoughts I've had. If anyone wants to build on them, or
knock them down, go right ahead.

Akiva Miller
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On Dec 3, 2015, at 9:00 AM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> Although I do agree
> that those who believe that "Moavi velo Moavis" was a new derashah by
> Boaz's court (eg the Rambam) should have no problem believing Ezra's BD
> set up a new derashah about inheritence. Or at least accept it as a
> non-heretical possibility.

Except that ?moavi velo moavis? doesn?t come up that often.  In any case, I
see no reason to pin the hypothetical change on Ezra?s BD specifically. 
The question for me is: should we expect that there were major changes of
this sort which happened long pre-Gemara, and which we have no record of?

> I think the cries of heresy come from those who assume a different
> mechanism for the change, like Document Hypothesis ideas about the age
> of the pasuq.

I don?t think the DH is relevant here.	The pasuk is hardly a clear proof
without a menorah from the Gemara.  The problematic (heretical?) position
seems to be that halacha didn?t really work like that back then, and the
rabbis of that time changed a lot of things willy-nilly.

> But in any case, I thought the topic RSG questioned was about the change
> of the meaning of the colloquialism "Jewish" when speaking of the period
> before Matan Torah than after.

I wasn?t trying to go after RSG.  But he did mention a takanna of Ezra?s
BD.  Obviously, the question of how ?Jewishness? and intermarriage worked
pre-matan Torah is complicated, and not a proof for what followed.

--
Daniel M. Israel
d...@cornell.edu

R' Saul Newman asked:

> is it or is it not a tenet of Orthodoxy that to be defined as O
> one must submit to some defined human authority?

I never heard of such a tenet. The only authority we must submit to is
Hashem.

> ... MO submitted to RYBS while they had him ...

No, not as far as I know. On the contrary! RYBS encouraged his talmidim not
only to think for themselves, but to pasken for themselves and their
communities too. It is quite common to hear stories of when he declined ...
no, that's not a strong enough word ... he *refused* to answer a question
posed by a newly-minted rabbi, teling him the youngster that it is now
*his* responsibility to analyze the question and to rule on it.

> the controversy is whether OO, which recognizes NO authority over
> them, are in violation of the proposed tenet or not.

This is not the complaint that I've heard against OO. The alleged problem
is not that they reject the authority of any specific individual or group,
but that they have done things which flaunt the authority of
Tradition-as-a-whole to an extent that it puts them beyond the pale.

R' Micha Berger asked:

> But back to the point... doesn't halakhah demand heteronomy?

(That's a new word for me. Had to look it up. Thanks!) Yes, definitely. But
we submit to Hashem. Only to Hashem. And He has commanded us to submit to
His representatives, but in my understanding that refers basically to the
Sanhedrin. End of story.

Akiva Miller
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I think your reply got much more into the details then the point I was
making.  The comparison to turkey would only be appropriate if the poskim
all said turkey was assur, and then a group of people came along and said,
?How can we Jews not participate in this important American holiday?  Such
a thing is contrary to our values!  We must find a way to matir turkey."

--
Daniel M. Israel
d...@cornell.edu

On Thu, Dec 03, 2015 at 11:08:28PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
:> But back to the point... doesn't halakhah demand heteronomy?

: (That's a new word for me. Had to look it up. Thanks!) Yes, definitely. But
: we submit to Hashem. Only to Hashem. And He has commanded us to submit to
: His representatives, but in my understanding that refers basically to the
: Sanhedrin. End of story.

Actually, submitting to Hashem's morality would be more specifically
theonomy. Which ends up looking very different than autonomy or (other)
heteronomy.

Whereas my understanding is that the whole point of semichah today is
to continue that "basically the Sanhedrin" even after semichah deOraisa
was lost.

What I am implying is that we are commanded to have an LOR and turn to
him for pesaq for the same hashkafic reasons we follow wholesale pesaqim
since the close of the Sanhedrin and of the Talmud Bavli (what we loosely
call "following the SA"). Halakhah isn't an autonomous venture.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             You are where your thoughts are.
mi...@aishdas.org                - Ramban, Igeres haQodesh, Ch. 5
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

From the article RYL quoted:

"However, the G'ra says that we may only imitate a practice which possibly
originated in Jewish circles, and was then adopted by the non-Jews."

With respect to Thanksgiving, it is my understanding that the original
celebration was done, at least in part, in conscious imitation
of Sukkos. The article seemed to imply that according to the Gra,
Thanksgiving would be assur, but in general we are lenient like other
authorities. But I wonder whether we could argue that Thanksgiving
fulfills the Gra's criteria.

I also note that the quotes the article brings from RMF are much less
clear cut than the conclusion it attributes to him. I don't know if a
fuller reading of those teshuvos would justify the article's conclusions.

Also, they write: "They may eat turkey because they enjoy it, but not for
the sake of thanks." This seems very strange to me; a perfect example of a
technical reading of the sources leading to a obviously silly conclusion.

The basic question in my mind, which I haven't seen addressed, is this:
What do we say about a custom, originated by non-Jews, but intended to
serve HKB"H? Is such a thing chukkas ha-goyim?

--
Daniel M. Israel
d...@cornell.edu

On Fri, Dec 04, 2015 at 01:13:25AM -0700, Daniel M. Israel via Avodah wrote:
: I think your reply got much more into the details then the point I
: was making...

As I understand it, you are distinguishing between turkey, which called
for innovation because the situation is new vs ordaining women, in
which claiming that today's woman poses a new situation is itself what
needs proving.

Which is a valid contrast.

I was just saying that the whole comparison fails to begin with because
you cannot handwave over the details. Halakhah was given in a legal
format, details matter. Just looking at a vague concept like "see, we
do innovate" is meaningless, and therefore I felt that contrasting the
kinds of innovation secondary.

Like detail and technology, and complaints that begin, "If we can send
a man to the moon, why can't we..."

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It isn't what you have, or who you are, or where
mi...@aishdas.org        you are,  or what you are doing,  that makes you
http://www.aishdas.org   happy or unhappy. It's what you think about.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Dale Carnegie

Dear Friends,

I write to you from Bar-Ilan University in Israel, where I am into my
second year of post-doctoral research in the Department of Mathematics.
Here in Israel, we began praying for rain 6 weeks ago, on the
Jewish-calendar date of 7 Heshvan, according to Mishna Taanit 1:3.  Thank
God we've received some rain since then.  Nevertheless, I have a feeling
that many of you still expect my annual friendly reminder....

Jews outside of Israel should include the request for rain in daily
prayers, beginning with Maariv this motzei Shabbat (Saturday evening),
December 5, 2015, corresponding to the evening of 24 Kislev, 5776.  The
phrase ??? ?? ???? ????? "Veten tal umatar livracha" - "Give us dew and
rain for a blessing" is inserted into the 9th blessing of the weekday
shemone esrei, from now until Pesach.  I encourage everyone to remind
friends and family members of this event, especially those who may not be
in shul at that time.

Diaspora Jews begin requesting rain on the 60th day of the fall season, as
approximated by Shmuel in the Talmud (Taanit 10a, Eiruvin 56a). For more
information about this calculation, follow the link below, to a fascinating
article giving a (very brief) introduction to the Jewish calendar, followed
by a discussion on why we begin praying for rain when we do:
http://www.lookstein.org/articles/veten_tal.htm
(Thanks to Russell Levy for providing the link.)

In unrelated news, here is some recent work of mine in Set Theory:

A seminar talk I gave at the Israel Institute for Advanced Studies in
Yerushalaim, including a video recording:
http://u.math.biu.ac.il/~brodska/Souslin-trees-Oct-2015-IIAS.htm

Research paper recently submitted:
http://www.assafrinot.com/paper/20

Older work - my PhD thesis, completed in 2014:
http://hdl.handle.net/1807/68124
External examiner's report on my thesis:
http://u.math.biu.ac.il/~brodska/BrodskyThesisReportMar2014.pdf
American Mathematical Society review of my thesis work:
http://www.ams.org/mathscinet-getitem?mr=3274402

Possibly more understandable to many people:  If you're curious about how
often we read from three sifrei Torah when Rosh Chodesh falls on Shabbat
during Chanukka, as will be the case this year, then see here for this as
well as other Chanukka-related calendrical facts:
http://individual.utoronto.ca/aribrodsky/Chanukka.htm
And here for how to calculate the molad, as this week we will announce the
upcoming month of Tevet:
http://individual.utoronto.ca/aribrodsky/MentalMoladMethod.htm

Finally, I would like to apologize to many of you for not maintaining
communication over the past year since I've arrived in Israel.  I'm sorry I
haven't always responded to your messages.  It's taken me a while to get
used to my new surroundings, but I hope to make more effort to keep in
touch with you in the near future.

Wishing everyone a happy Chanukka,
-Ari Meir Brodsky


---------------------
Ari M. Brodsky
ari.brod...@utoronto.ca
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RSN:

<<is it or is it not a tenet of Orthodoxy that to be defined as O one 
must submit to some defined human authority?>>

RMB:

<< In the realm of halakhah, I think so -- asei lekha rav. And this 
holds for your rav as well.>>

There's a difference between deference and submission.  One has to 
consider carefully before disagreeing with one's rebbe, but there's no 
prohibition.  Witness the many cases in Hazal and rishonim where it 
happens, e.g., H. Shehita 11:10.

David Riceman

R' Daniel M. Israel wrote:

> I've seen arguments like this one before, and they miss the
> critical difference. How rulings such as permitting turkey,
> the switch to nusach Sephard, or even how Judaism survived
> without the korbanos, all arose and entered the mainstream
> is a very interesting topic and beyond the scope of a post
> here (or my abilities to do justice to), but it is clear in
> all these cases that the source was not a group of activists
> promoting a agenda which was primarily driven by some outside
> value system. This makes all the difference.

Is it *really* so clear that these changes were not sourced by an outside
agenda?

Your examples vary widely. It is hard for us to imagine the trauma suffered
by the loss of korbanos, and how our leaders guided us into adapting to the
new reality. Of course they were driven by an *internal* value system,
wanting us to continue as Torah Jews without succumbing to the depressing
loss of such a major portion of our avodah - no pun intended. But turkey is
a whole 'nother story. What internal value system do you suggest drove that
ruling?

Let's take another example: Torah education for girls. Only a century or
two ago, it was very clear to *some* that the Beis Yaakov activists were
the ones who were driven by an agenda from *outside* our value system.

"History is written by the victors." Looking back, we can smugly rest
assured about who was proven to be right, and who was proven to be wrong.
But in the middle of it all, it is very very difficult. There were plenty
of genuine gedolim in Korach's camp who thought that Moshe Rabenu was the
one who had the agenda.

Akiva Miller
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From: Eli Turkel via Avodah  <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>

<<Until the Torah was given on  Sinai the Avos were not obligated to keep it
...However, for the most part  they did keep the Torah even before it
was given. Yosef and Moshe certainly  converted their wives, but to what?   
To
monotheism and to  membership in the Abrahamite tribe -- not to Judaism,
which didn't formally  exist until the Torah was given. [--TK] >>

[1] what does it  mean that Yosef and Moshe converted theri wives? [2] They 
were the
only  "Jews" around and certainly no bet din. [3] Yosef kept secret that he 
was
a  son of Jacob and so its clear what his wife knew. [4 ] Did his wife also 
 keep
"most of the Torah".

-- 
Eli Turkel

 
 
>>>>>
[1] Already answered.  It means "they converted their wives to  monotheism 
and to membership in the Abrahamite tribe." 
 
[2] Correct, already noted, "not to Judaism, which didn't formally exist  
until the Torah was given."
 
[3] You probably meant to write "it's NOT clear what his wife knew."   He 
did not keep his identity or his religious beliefs secret from his wife and  
children.  That is how Menashe and Ephraim were raised "Jewish" -- putting  
it in quotation marks because Judaism didn't formally exist yet -- even  
before the 11 brothers showed up and Yosef revealed himself to them.  That  is 
how they were raised in the faith of the Avos and were tzaddikim when  Yakov 
came to Egypt, such that he recognized them as equal to his 12 sons even  
though they had grown up in Egypt with an Egyptian mother.  She was a "Jew"  
(with quotation marks for the stated reason).
 
[4] His wife probably kept most of the Torah, yes.  
 
 

--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


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On 12/03/2015 03:21 PM, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
>> The specific problem was marrying Canaanites. Yosef married an Egyptian,
>> and Moshe a Midianite.

> Esav seems to be crticized for marrying in the family of Ishmael. What was
> wrong with that?

There was nothing wrong with that.  AFAIK nobody criticises him for it.
But as Rashi says, if he meant it he would have divorced his bad wives.

>> No, it was zera kodesh, not mixing with the cursed seed of Kenaan,

> Who did the sons of Yaakov marry? Even if he had daughters one cant marry a
> sister.

Rashi says as the first and primary pshat that each son had a twin sister,
so there were six girls for Leah's sons to marry, and the other sons could
marry Leah's daughters.

> Also I would assume that the were people in Caanan who were not
>  descendantsof Canaan (eg Tamar)

Indeed there were, and the second pshat is that they married such
girls.  For instance, Rashi specifically says that Yehuda's first
father-in-law was a trader, *not* a Kenaani.



On 12/03/2015 11:11 PM, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> Anyone notice a pattern? For the avos, it wasn't enough to stay away
> from Canaan, or any other tribe for that matter. They had to marry
> davka within the family of Terach, and with "family" being defined
> patrilinially.

Except that Avraham didn't specify that Yitzchak's wife come from his
family, but only from his birthplace.   (The servant *told* Rivka's
family that Avraham sent him to them, but there is no hint of this
in Avraham's actual instructions, or in the servant's actions until
then.  It's clearly something he made up for their benefit.  See Malbim.)

> Anyone know the parentage of Bilhah and Zilpah?

Rashi says they were Lavan's daughters.

-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

 
From: Eli Turkel via Avodah  <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
"

> The specific problem was  marrying Canaanites. Yosef married an Egyptian,
> and Moshe a  Midianite.

[1] Esav seems to be crticized for marrying in the family of  Ishmael. What 
was
wrong with that?


[Email #2.]

> No, it  was zera kodesh, not mixing with the cursed seed of Kenaan,

[2] Who did  the sons of Yaakov marry? Even if he had daughters one cant 
marry  a
sister.

-- 
Eli Turkel





>>>>>
 
[1] The problem, as Rashi says, is that he only married her to blow smoke  
in his parents' eyes, as proven by the fact that he did not divorce the  
idol-worshipping wives his parents hated!  He just added another one to the  
harem.
 
[2] The same medrash that says the 12 shevatim were born with twin sisters  
says or implies that they married each other's twins.  They kept /most/ of  
the Torah but strictly speaking were only obligated to keep Noahide law 
which  permits brother-sister marriages, esp if they are from different mothers.
 
A simple reading of the text OTOH would imply that they married local  
women, Canaanite women.  Some probably married relatives from Aram or  local 
relatives.  Undoubtedly there were many cousins, esp if girls from  the 
Yishmael and Esav lines are allowed, and why wouldn't they be?
 
Once there was a "three-fold cord" of Avraham, Yitzchak, and Yakov, the  
dangers of the subsequent generations marrying Canaanite women and being  
influenced by them were not as great.  The survival of the clan as a  separate, 
G-d-fearing clan was now assured.
 

--Toby  Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


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