Avodah Mailing List

Volume 33: Number 155

Fri, 04 Dec 2015

• 1. Re: Ahab (Zev Sero)
• 2. Ahab (Eli Turkel)
• 3. Re: Kosher Turkey and Women Rabbis and Mesorah (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Ahab (Zev Sero)
• 5. submission to an authority (Joseph Kaplan)
• 6. Chizkiyahu's Seal (Sholom Simon)
• 7. Turkey (Eli Turkel)
• 8. Re: submission to an authority ()
• 9. Re: Ahab ()
• 10. Re: submission to an authority (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Ahab (Zev Sero)
• 12. Ahab (Eli Turkel)
• 13. Re: Ahab (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: octal arithmetic (Micha Berger)

On 12/03/2015 11:00 AM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> So, one of the answers is that a foreskin wasn't orlah until the beris
> bein habesrim.

I don't think you meant to write bris bein habesarim, since it's not
relevant to milah.   If it were relevant, then one would have to ask
why he waited another 29 years.

-- 
Zev Sero               All around myself I will wave the green willow
z...@sero.name          The myrtle and the palm and the citron for a week
                And if anyone should ask me the reason why I'm doing that
                I'll say "It's a Jewish thing; if you have a few minutes
                I'll explain it to you".

<<Until the Torah was given on Sinai the Avos were not obligated to keep it
-- which is why Yakov could marry two sisters, and Amram could marry his
aunt.  However, for the most part they did keep the Torah even before it
was
given. Yosef and Moshe certainly converted their wives, but to what?   To
monotheism and to membership in the Abrahamite tribe -- not to Judaism,
which
didn't formally exist until the Torah was given.  At that point,  every
single Hebrew converted! >>

what does it mean that Yosef and Moshe converted theri wives? They were the
only "Jews" around and certainly no bet din. Yosef kept secret that he was
a son of Jacob and so its clear what his wife knew. Did his wife also keep
"most of the Torah".

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On Thu, Dec 03, 2015 at 12:18:24AM -0700, Daniel M. Israel via Avodah wrote:
: I've seen arguments like this one before, and they miss the critical
: difference. How rulings such as permitting turkey, the switch to nusach
: Sephard, or even how Judaism survived without the korbanos, all arose and
: entered the mainstream ...                            but it is clear in
: all these cases that the source was not a group of activists promoting
: a agenda which was primarily driven by some outside value system. This
: makes all the difference.

My own problems are specifically with
(1) the technical issue of changing whose halachic decision-making is
    considered "pesaq",

and, more relevant to RDMI's point:
(2) changing the feel of the synagogue,
(3) the implication that synagogue is more important to Judaism than it
    really is,
(4) the attempt to erase differences (egalitarianism) rather than create
    comparable room for opportunity, and
(5) the seeming willingness implied by 1-3 to accept and adapt halakhah
    to externally derived values rather than spend time assessing whether
    the West is just pointing out values we should already have gotten
    from the Torah.

The Sho'el uMeishiv also accepted an outside value once, and at the time
that I first encountered it in a lunch-and-learn (Jun 2001) I applauded
it. <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol07/v07n058.shtml#04>

> The Sho'el uMeishiv's position that if secular society saw the moral
> obligation to protect an author's creation and publisher's investment, it
> is impossible that the Torah is less moral. He therefore assigns ownership
> of ideas to their creator. And since, in halachah, ownership is eternal
> (barring proactively making a kinyan), he paskened that copyrights
> are lehalachah also eternal.

> Note that he isn't claiming dina dimalchusah. There are grounds for
> that too, and even for turning that dina dimalchusah ownership into a
> halachic eternal ownership. But that's for a discussion of the halachos
> of copyright.

> I just want to note the SuM's assumption, and the importance he assigns
> moral rights identified by the surrounding culture.

But there was a procedual step here -- comparing the outside value and
finding them consistent with the Torah's, but a new expression of ideas
already found in Torah.

I think that if (5) weren't true, I would be comfortable saying eilu
va'eilu about 2-4.

But I think I've gone further discussing one man's opinion, and one man's
self-examination about its roots, than anyone would bothering reading.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A pious Jew is not one who worries about his fellow
mi...@aishdas.org        man's soul and his own stomach; a pious Jew worries
http://www.aishdas.org   about his own soul and his fellow man's stomach.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On 12/03/2015 11:02 AM, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
> Yosef kept secret that he was a son of Jacob

Since when?

-- 
Zev Sero               All around myself I will wave the green willow
z...@sero.name          The myrtle and the palm and the citron for a week
                And if anyone should ask me the reason why I'm doing that
                I'll say "It's a Jewish thing; if you have a few minutes
                I'll explain it to you".

"saul newman asked:

: is it or is it not a tenet of  Orthodoxy  that to be defined as O  one must

: submit to some defined human authority? ...


And RMB answered: "In the realm of halakhah, I think so -- asei lekha rav."

I never thought of asei lecha rav as a tenet or Orthodoxy, just as I don't
think of the other part of that phrase - kenei lecha chaver - as a tenet of
Orthodoxy. Certainly wise things to do.  But tenets? I don't think so.

Joseph

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A story with more background, more science, and a suggested answer
to your
question:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/12/151202132519.htm
[1] 

> Now to figure out why someone known for stamping out AZ had on
his seal a two-winged sun with by ankh symbols on each side. The ankh is
a life symbol, but it is also found in pictures of Egyptian deities
including pharoahs
 

Links:
------
[1]
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/12/151202132519.htm
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<<I have been told about two gedolim who did not eat turkey - Rav P. M.
Teitz of Elizabeth, NJ and Rav  Yaakov Kamenetsky.
I  am  sure  there  are ohers.>>

The question is whether it was a personal chumra or they felt it was really
prohibited.
I have heard that R H Schacter also does not eat turkey nevertheless the OU
gives a hechsher to turkey.

Nevertheless it is clear that turkey today is considered a kosher bird.
There are some rabbis that are machmir on almost anything, Doesnt have any
implications for the rest of us.

Rumor has it that both CI and the Brisker Rav would not do melacha on "yom
tov sheni" because of the Rambam that says that Yom Tov Sheni holds for any
location where the messengers didnt reach. We dont pasken this way and in
fact these gedolim did not publicize their views so that others would not
follow their personal psak

-- 
Eli Turkel
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From: saul newman via Avodah  <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>


is it or is it not a tenet of   Orthodoxy  that to be defined as O  one must
submit to some defined  human authority?    clearly,  we must deny the
preposition  that to be O one must submit to
either the entity called  'moetzets  gedolei hatorah'  of the USA or 
Israel....
so, is there a tenet of  O  that submission to a defined panel of leadership
is  mandatory?

 
 
>>>>
 
Aseh lecha rav.  You cannot be Orthodox if you refuse to submit to  /any/ 
rabbinical authority and if you insist on setting yourself up as your own  
authority in all matters great and small.  Even someone who genuinely is a  
great Torah scholar must consult with colleagues and not be arrogant.  If  
there are any midos that define OO, they are self-importance  and arrogance.  
This is also true of the "Orthodox" feminist movement, and  all movements and 
individuals who reject the very idea of rabbinical  authority.
 
BTW we must NOT "deny the preposition" because we cannot make ourselves  
understood without prepositions.  When I was in the 8th grade I had to  
memorize this list:  in, of, to, for, by, on, into, over, under, with,  above, 
below, at, from, across, beside, between, without.  Without the  preposition, 
all attempts at communication would be like the Tower of  Babel.  Of course, 
even /with/ the preposition, a lot of what goes on here  is just like that 
-- misunderstandings, talking at cross-purposes, and throwing  bricks at one 
another.
 
So, not to forget the main point -- aseh lecha rav.
 
 
--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


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From: Zev Sero via Avodah  <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>


On 12/01/2015 01:39 PM, Ben Waxman  via Avodah wrote:
>> Yosef and Moshe certainly converted their wives,  but to what? To
>> monotheism and to membership in the Abrahamite  tribe

I see no reason to suppose there was any sort of "conversion"  involved,
since among Bnei Noach yichus goes after the father.    Membership of
the tribe would be automatic with marriage.



--  
Zev  Sero                
z...@sero.name           




>>>>
 
Ben Waxman did not write the paragraph you quoted in his name, I did.   He 
actually wrote something similar to what you are claiming here -- that they  
did /not/ convert their wives, and that there was only patrilineal descent 
back  then, and it made no difference who the wives were.
 
The reason I wrote that there had to be some kind of conversion before  
Yosef and Moshe et al could marry their non-family wives is that it is  
critically important what the mother of your children believes and teaches your  
children.  The Torah makes it absolutely clear that the mother is  critically 
important -- Avraham's heir could not be born from Hagar,  he had to be from 
Sarah.  Do you honestly believe that we are only talking  about biological 
genetics here?!
 

--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


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I think that without a rebbe, one is disconnected from the oral Torah,
from the eitz chaim. There feels something basically Karaitic about it.

The Rambam on Avos 1:6 appears to take "asei lekha rav" as an obligation,
not as Pirqei Avos's mussar "ought"s. Perhaps mirroring my intent when
I threw the phrase in there, just for sloganeering purposes.

BTW, I found this, by R' Jonathan Ziring (whose shiurim on YUTorah.org
were recommended here by others)
<https://shaashuim.wordpress.com/2014/12/03/why-is-psak-binding>:

    ... The Gemara rules that if one Chacham forbade something,
    another Chacham is not allowed to permit it. In another place,
    the Gemara forbids one who asked a shayla from asking another
    posek. While Tosafot seems to think there is only one prohibition,
    on the Chacham, the simple understanding of the Gemara is that these
    are two prohibitions. Why is it forbidden?

    There are three main possibilities:

    1. It is a lack of respect for the first Chacham to ask a second
    one. The Ran suggests this, and adds that it also causes it to seem
    like there are two Torot.

    2. It is a form of neder you accepted either his decision, or to
    listen to whatever he said (we will return to this). This positions
    seems to be taken by Raavad.

    3. The Chacham creates a metaphysical status by poskaning that you
    are bound to. This is most clearly taken by the Ritva.

    There are many differences suggested between these....

And "For a full treatment, see the shiur and sources (here
<http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/820882>)."

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man is a drop of intellect drowning in a sea
mi...@aishdas.org        of instincts.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On 12/03/2015 01:30 PM, via Avodah wrote:
> it is critically important what the mother of your children believes and teaches your children.

WHat has this to do with conversion, either before or after matan torah?
There are plenty of non-Jews who believe and Jews who don't.

> Ben Waxman did not write the paragraph you quoted in his name, I did.

Hence the double >

-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

> The specific problem was marrying Canaanites. Yosef married an Egyptian,
> and Moshe a Midianite.

Esav seems to be crticized for marrying in the family of Ishmael. What was
wrong with that?


[Email #2.]

> No, it was zera kodesh, not mixing with the cursed seed of Kenaan,

Who did the sons of Yaakov marry? Even if he had daughters one cant marry a
sister.
Also I would assume that the were people in Caanan who were not descendants
of Canaan (eg Tamar)

-- 
Eli Turkel

According to R' Hutner (Pachad Yitzchaq, Chanukah #5), Yishmael had to
opt in, but Esav actually was born in and opted out.

H/T RYGB @ https://youtu.be/rjcRNTbtCpc

I argued that intermarriage was about Beris Sinai, and therefore not
applicable. If you argued that it was about Beris Avos, it would seem
RYH would inist that since Yaaqov's generation you can be born in,
and the question is only which parent.

BTW, this fits the understanding of Esav as a failed partner in the
venture, the side that was supposed to provide the material resources
while Yaaqov povided the spirituality. And that's why Yitzchaq, despite
actually knowing that Esav was the hunter who married into the local
tribe, wanted to bless him with "mital hashamayim umishmani ha'aretz".

Esav opted out of all that, but it was indeed who he was supposed to
be.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Never must we think that the Jewish element
mi...@aishdas.org        in us could exist without the human element
http://www.aishdas.org   or vice versa.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     - Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch

On Tue, Dec 01, 2015 at 05:45:33PM -0500, David Riceman via Avodah wrote:
: The Ramban in his commentary on Iyov 5:19 (ed. Chavel p. 40) says
: that seven is "sof hacheshbon".  What does he mean?

I know 10 is called "sof hacheshbon" because we do base-ten arithmetic.
And this is, al pi Google, the most discussed usage.

However, couldn't the Ramban simply mean that the seventh was the end
of what the satan's cheshbon for what he was doing to Iyov? As in
the completeness of sheva - shavua - sova (- shevua?).

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Every child comes with the message
mi...@aishdas.org        that God is not yet discouraged with
http://www.aishdas.org   humanity.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Rabindranath Tagore


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