Avodah Mailing List

Volume 33: Number 150

Thu, 26 Nov 2015

• 1. Re: truth (Zev Sero)
• 2. Re: Ahab (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: maaseh avot siman lebanim (Zev Sero)
• 4. Re: maaseh avot siman lebanim (Toby Katz)
• 5. Re: maaseh avot siman lebanim (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: truth (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: maaseh avot siman lebanim (Zvi Lampel)
• 8. Re: maaseh avot siman lebanim (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: maaseh avot siman lebanim (H Lampel)
• 10. Re: maaseh avot siman lebanim (Zvi Lampel)
• 11. Re: maaseh avot siman lebanim (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: maaseh avot siman lebanim (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: chumrah leading to a kulah (Akiva Miller)
• 14. Re: Ahab (Eli Turkel)

On 11/25/2015 03:49 PM, via Avodah wrote:
> Yes, Rashi says he told Esav to be sure and bring him hunted animals
> that were hefker, not stolen property,

And that he shecht them properly, which means he knew very well what
Esav normally ate.


> but Rashi also says that Esav fooled his father by asking him frummy
> questions about tithing salt and straw.

He *tried* to fool him.  Rashi doesn't say he succeeded.

-- 
Zev Sero               All around myself I will wave the green willow
z...@sero.name          The myrtle and the palm and the citron for a week
                And if anyone should ask me the reason why I'm doing that
                I'll say "It's a Jewish thing; if you have a few minutes
                I'll explain it to you".

On 11/25/2015 03:16 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> I wonder about the question, though. Did Chazal consider any of Malkhei
> Yisrael legitimate even if their membership in Benei Yisrael were not
> a question?

Yes, malchei Yisrael had a din melech. And thus were subject to the
prohibition against appointing a foreigner king.


On 11/25/2015 01:29 PM, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015, 20:03 Lisa Liel<l...@starways.net>  wrote:
>> Just because she was a wicked idolater doesn't mean she didn't convert
>> before marrying Ahav...

> Given Jezebel's history highly unlikely. Even with Solomon's wives
> we have discussions.  Besides any conversion would be a farce.

Surely she did convert.  Ach'av was a shomer mitzvos, and would not have
married a shiktze.   And she did accept her new country's god -- after
all, her sons were not named Achazbaal and Baalram.  But she didn't
abandon her old gods.  She must have accepted the obligation of mitzvos,
including the obligation not to serve avoda zara, and that if she were
caught serving AZ she could be executed, but either she intended to
break her obligation and expected not to be caught, or she originally
intended to abandon her gods but later backslid.

>   What bet din?

Ovadiah was Ach'av's house rabbi, so presumably his beit din.

-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

On 11/25/2015 03:23 PM, T6...@aol.com wrote:
> I've never heard of this. Where is it written?

In the same place where the rest of the story is written. Sotah 13a.
It's the conclusion of the story.


> Could you fill in the rest of the story? Yakov saw Esav's blood on
> whose feet -- Esav's feet or Yakov's feet?

Yaacov's feet.


> Yakov saw? Yakov laughed? When -- after he had died?!

Yes. Yaacov, after he had been dead for 70 days, and had been
embalmed by the Egyptian methods which involved removing his internal
organs, opened his eyes, saw Esav's blood on his feet, and laughed,
as the pasuk says "The tzadik will rejoice when he sees revenge, and
washes his feet in the rasha's blood".


On 11/25/2015 02:29 PM, T6...@aol.com via Avodah wrote:
> Chushim ran back to Egypt and fetched the original shtar.

Naftali ran back to Egypt to fetch the document. Chushim wasn't willing
to let his zeide just lie around for a few days until Naftali could return,
so he solved the problem the direct way, by killing Esav.

-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

In a message dated 11/25/2015 3:29:21 P.M. EST, saulguber...@gmail.com writes:
> From: Toby  Katz at <t6...@aol.com>
>> There is a way to decide between these alternatives. Look for earlier 
>> sources or commentators -- earlier than the 21st century. We moderns can 
>> speculate but can't really make up our own meforshim based on nothing but
>> our own intuition. You need sources, precedents.

> I guess you don't read much of Rav Yoel Bin Nun & Rav Elchanan  Samet.  
> Where does chidush come into play?  Is that not one of the  main goals of 
> learning, that separate the talmud chacham from the rest?  

You can only base chiddushim on /something/ not on /nothing./  If you  want 
to make Chushim into a bad guy instead of a good guy, you have to have some 
kind of a source.

--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com

On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 3:41pm EST, Rn Toby Katz wrote:
: You can only base chiddushim on /something/ not on /nothing./  If you  want 
: to make Chushim into a bad guy instead of a good guy, you have to have some 
: kind of a source.

I would borrow RYBS's chiluq between shinui and chidush WRT halakhah:

Shinui runs counter to mesorah, chidush flows in the same direction,
but continues it further.

I do not know what this means where mesorah is silent. The more one knows
of mesorah, and the more one is immersed in its culture, the less often
one would think it actualy is entirely silent.

WRT aggadita too... We are more culturally removed by the authors of
the aggadita, and therefore less equipped to unpack the lesson out of
the story.

So here, I would end up agreeing with RnTK -- since there are voices
who better hear Chazal's way of thinking who assumed Chushim did the
right thing, the proposal to villainize his action needs some kind of
counter-source, something that implies the momentum behind your idea
already existed.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Mussar is like oil put in water,
mi...@aishdas.org        eventually it will rise to the top.
http://www.aishdas.org                    - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 12:25:26PM +0200, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
: Yaakov is the epitomy of truth (titen emet le-yaakov)
: Nevertheless from the parsha it would seem that is far from yaakov's
: strength
: 
: convincing Esav to sell the birthright when he is starving and not just try
: and make a deal under normal circumstances
...

Avraham, the baal rachamim, was forced to deal with the Aqeidah. He was
challenged with knowing the proper balance between rachamim and obedience.

Similarly, I understood Yaaqov's life story as his repeatedly being
challenge WRT the very middah that was his strength.

This is particularly going to happen when developing Emes... Emes and
Shalom have naturally been in conflict since creation. Which is why
we had to invent the concept of tact, and the gemara has sugyos like
"keitzad meraqdim".

Emes and Shalom disagreed with the idea of creating humanity. Emes was
thrown to the ground, "emes mei'eretz tatzmiach" through the course
of history. But because of that, shalom's problem too was addressed,
and HQBH didn't have to deal with it separately.

IOW, Yaaqov was forced into a corner BECAUSE, not despite, his being
an ish emes. The world isn't ready for unadulterated emes; the balance
between emes and shalom have to be worked out.

OHMYG-D! I just realized that this dovetails SO well with what I posted
earlier today about Yitzchaq thinking that history was nearing its end
and Edom and Yisrael would start the messianic confederation for
avodas Hashem... After all, that is the era of shalom / sheleimus,
and because it hadn't come yet, emes's limits had to be tested...

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Nearly all men can stand adversity,
mi...@aishdas.org        but if you want to test a man's character,
http://www.aishdas.org   give him power.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                      -Abraham Lincoln

On Nov 25, 2015 6:35 PM, "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> I would borrow RYBS's chiluq between shinui and chidush WRT halakhah:
> Shinui runs counter to mesorah, chidush flows in the same direction,
> but continues it further.

I agree, and would add that the rishonim likewise guide us in the general
direction of understanding Chazal (and pesukim and general Jewish thought
and ideology).

Zvi Lampel

On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 06:52:32PM -0500, Zvi Lampel wrote:
: I agree, and would add that the rishonim likewise guide us in the general
: direction of understanding Chazal (and pesukim and general Jewish thought
: and ideology).

Except WRT pesuqim, where you have pashtanim offering peshatim that ignore
both Chazal's derashos and sometimes their peshatim as well. I think this
is less and less true the further one gets from pure TSBP.

As for the rishonim's guidance... I spoke in the metaphor of momentum,
not inertia, how the TSBP is flowing down the generations, not a snapshot.

From <http://www.aishdas.org/asp/postmodernism-and-mesorah>:

   ...
   So while the classical academic tried to find the original intent of
   the text, the postmodern found this impossible and therefore doesn't
   try. Instead, he looks to see what social constructs the text implies
   for the primary purpose of questioning it.
   ...

   Mesorah is a living tradition of a development of ideas. The Oral Torah
   is oral, a dialog across the generations. If we see a quote in the
   gemara from Rav Yochanan, we might be curious about the historical
   intent of Rav Yochanan. But in terms of Torah, important to us than
   what R' Yochanan's original intent is what R' Ashi thought that intent
   was, which in turn can only be understood through the eyes of what the
   Rosh and the Rambam understood R' Ashi's meaning to be, which in turn
   can only be understood through the eyes of the Shaagas Aryeh and R'
   Chaim Brisker.  That is the true meaning, in terms of Torah, of Rav
   Yoachanan's statement.

   Definitionally, talmud Torah is entering the stream. Not seeing a
   statement as a point to isolate in time and space, but as a being
   with a current that runs through history from creation to redemption.

FWIW, I also relate this to the Qetzos identifying Torah's Eitz
Chaim with the "emes mei'aretz tatzmiach" that I mentioned recently
on another thread.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The greatest discovery of all time is that
mi...@aishdas.org        a person can change their future
http://www.aishdas.org   by merely changing their attitude.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Oprah Winfrey

On 11/25/2015 7:01 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 06:52:32PM -0500, Zvi Lampel wrote:
> : I agree, and would add that the rishonim likewise guide us in the general
> : direction of understanding Chazal (and pesukim and general Jewish thought
> : and ideology).
>
> Except WRT pesuqim, where you have pashtanim offering peshatim that ignore
> both Chazal's derashos and sometimes their peshatim as well.
This is not an exception, because we were speaking in the context of 
what you called ''shinui'' vs. ''chiddush," and I used the wording 
''general direction,'' in accord as well with RET's wording of ''making 
a bad guy into a good guy.''
>   I think this
> is less and less true the further one gets from pure TSBP.
Not sure what you mean by that.
>
> As for the rishonim's guidance... I spoke in the metaphor of momentum,
> not inertia,
These are physics terms, and I don't understand how they apply to our 
subject. (Don't ask me to explain what they mean in physics, either...)
>   how the TSBP is flowing down the generations, not a snapshot.
Deciphering original intent is the initial objective. The assumption is 
that ''what R' Ashi thought that intent
    was, which in turn can only be understood through the eyes of what the
    Rosh and the Rambam understood R' Ashi's meaning to be'' is an 
accurate analysis of what Rav Yochonon's historical intent was. What to 
do with the results arrived at when allegedly accurate new and 
contradicing information appears is another story.

Zvi Lampel

I used the wording ''general direction,'' in accord as well with RET's
wording of ''making a bad guy into a good guy.''
>

Make ''RET's" RbTK's.

> Zvi Lampel
>
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On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 07:29:35PM -0500, H Lampel via Avodah wrote:
:> Except WRT pesuqim, where you have pashtanim offering peshatim that ignore
:> both Chazal's derashos and sometimes their peshatim as well.

: This is not an exception...

Nor is it a pasuq.

:> I think this
:> is less and less true the further one gets from pure TSBP.

: Not sure what you mean by that.

I mean that a number of the rishonim who give pesat in Tanakh are
perfectly willing to translate and/or explain the pasuq differently than
the gemara did.

The notion of chiddush vs shinui appears to be a TSBP thing. When dealing
with peshat, it doesn't necessarily apply. Which to my mind makes sense.
TSBP is be'al peh in order to be a process; the rules of the process
are specifically for TSBP. For TSBP, like any other exploration of fact,
you try your best to find truth, and are not bound by rules of process.

:> As for the rishonim's guidance... I spoke in the metaphor of momentum,
:> not inertia,

: These are physics terms, and I don't understand how they apply to
: our subject...

Momentum is like your invoking direction, except that momentum also
includes speed and mass. I meant the mashel that in cases where there
is some tolerance in direction, how much leeway you take depends on
how weighty the matter is. And, the bigger the chiddush, the slower you
ought to take things.

: either...)

:>  how the TSBP is flowing down the generations, not a snapshot.

: Deciphering original intent is the initial objective...

So do you believe that when two talmidim of Rav Yochanan argue about what
he meant, not only is one historically wrong, his position isn't Torah
either, no eilu va'eilu, and the SA might be wrong in an absolue sense?

Do the dynamics of dispute only apply to the first time any din deOraisa
is ever debated?


And what about cases where the intent isn't speicifc enough to cover one
understanding over the other? How we apply a gemara about nitzotzos or
gacheles shel mateches to electrical appliances is unlikely to depend
on a detail of Shemu'el's intent -- he likely had nothing in minde
relevant. Rather, it's how those details got filled in during the
centuries since.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A pious Jew is not one who worries about his fellow
mi...@aishdas.org        man's soul and his own stomach; a pious Jew worries
http://www.aishdas.org   about his own soul and his fellow man's stomach.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 07:29:35PM -0500, H Lampel via Avodah wrote:
:> Except WRT pesuqim, where you have pashtanim offering peshatim that ignore
:> both Chazal's derashos and sometimes their peshatim as well.

: This is not an exception...

Nor is it a pasuq.

:> I think this
:> is less and less true the further one gets from pure TSBP.

: Not sure what you mean by that.

I mean that a number of the rishonim who give pesat in Tanakh are
perfectly willing to translate and/or explain the pasuq differently than
the gemara did.

The notion of chiddush vs shinui appears to be a TSBP thing. When dealing
with peshat, it doesn't necessarily apply. Which to my mind makes sense.
TSBP is be'al peh in order to be a process; the rules of the process
are specifically for TSBP. For TSBP, like any other exploration of fact,
you try your best to find truth, and are not bound by rules of process.

:> As for the rishonim's guidance... I spoke in the metaphor of momentum,
:> not inertia,

: These are physics terms, and I don't understand how they apply to
: our subject...

Momentum is like your invoking direction, except that momentum also
includes speed and mass. I meant the mashel that in cases where there
is some tolerance in direction, how much leeway you take depends on
how weighty the matter is. And, the bigger the chiddush, the slower you
ought to take things.

: either...)

:>  how the TSBP is flowing down the generations, not a snapshot.

: Deciphering original intent is the initial objective...

So do you believe that when two talmidim of Rav Yochanan argue about what
he meant, not only is one historically wrong, his position isn't Torah
either, no eilu va'eilu, and the SA might be wrong in an absolue sense?

Do the dynamics of dispute only apply to the first time any din deOraisa
is ever debated?


And what about cases where the intent isn't speicifc enough to cover one
understanding over the other? How we apply a gemara about nitzotzos or
gacheles shel mateches to electrical appliances is unlikely to depend
on a detail of Shemu'el's intent -- he likely had nothing in minde
relevant. Rather, it's how those details got filled in during the
centuries since.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A pious Jew is not one who worries about his fellow
mi...@aishdas.org        man's soul and his own stomach; a pious Jew worries
http://www.aishdas.org   about his own soul and his fellow man's stomach.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter

R' Eli Turkel wrote:

> In a recent tradition article article there is an example how
> a chumrah especially made as a reaction leads to a kulah
>
> In the prohibition R Louis Ginzberg issued a psak that one could
> use grape juice for kiddush. In reaction to this Conservative
> psak some O rabbi attacked R Ginzburg and paskened that grape
> juice was no different than orange juice and certainly not to be
> used for kiddush. As a result O Jews used wine for kiddush
> during the prohibition but drank grape juice without any hechsher.
>
> Today (beginning with R Pesach Tzvi Frank) most poskim say that
> one can use grape juice for kiddush (some even say its preferable).
> Most important they all hold that grape juice is wine for the
> prohibition of stam yeinam
>
> Hence, the attempt to attack R Ginzburg and be machmir led many
> Jews for over 30 years to transgress the issur of stam yeinam.

Alternatively, one could say that the attempt to equate wine and juice led
many Jews in recent years to transgress the issur of a bracha l'vatala at
Kiddush.

I am NOT taking sides or paskening on this issue. (Nor have I read the
article he referred to.) I am merely using it to illustrate how (in my
experience) when one finds a "chumrah leading to a kulah", it can also be
viewed as a "kulah leading to chumrah". These things are reversible, and
oftentimes the right and left are determined only by one's starting point.

Chumros about Bein Hashmashos on Saturday end up being kulos about Bein
Hashmashos on Friday. Chumros about Bein Hashmashos on Friday end up being
kulos about Bein Hashmashos on Saturday. And so on.

Akiva Miller
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<< Lisa Liel wrote: Hashem sent nevi'im to anoint kings who weren't from
Yehudah. Shaul, Yeravam, Yehu...  I have to figure that if He did that,
it's okay.

In any case, the Ralbag and Radaq say she wasn't Jewish. >>

Note also that Athaliah is  the daughter of King Ahab
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahab> and Queen Jezebel
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jezebel_(Bible)> of Israel
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Israel_(Samaria)> (according to
most commentaries). Athaliah was married to Jehoram of Judah to seal a
treaty <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty> between the kingdoms of
Israel and Judah, and to secure his position. In any case we have many
cases in Tanach where Jews married nonJews (and at least the Bible doesnt
mention any conversion).

As we have discussed the most famous case is Ruth where her conversion
seems to occur after the death of Machon and Kilyon. Others cases involve
marriages of kings for political purposes including David and Shlomo. Note
that Rechavam's mother Naama was an ammonite.
In addition we have the famous story of Shimshom. Of course before Sinai we
have Moshe Rabbenu.

Later in history Ezra fought against the prevelant custom of marrying
nonJewish women.
see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interfaith_marriage_in_Judaism

Eli



>
>
>


-- 
Eli Turkel
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