Avodah Mailing List

Volume 33: Number 135

Mon, 19 Oct 2015

• 1. Re: Milchemes Mitzvah vs Onshei Beis Din (Lisa Liel)
• 2. Re: Shaving with a Skarp - permitted? (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Simchas Torah is Really a Holiday for Bavel and not EY (Zev Sero)
• 4. Re: Mitzvah Kiyumit (Akiva Miller)
• 5. Return to the Land of Israel (Prof. Levine)
• 6. re Teffilin (Brian Wiener)
• 7. Re: Mitzvah Kiyumit (Micha Berger)
• 8. kaddish after leining (Rich, Joel)
• 9. Re: kaddish after leining (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: kaddish after leining (Akiva Blum)
• 11. Re: Shehecheyanu on Matza (Micha Berger)
• 12. Shehecheyanu on Matza (Akiva Miller)
• 13. Re: Shehecheyanu on Matza (Zev Sero)
• 14. Announcing Geshem (Akiva Miller)

On 10/15/2015 6:26 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> Also, there are girsa'os that have beKanaanim or beAKU"M, rather than
> begoyim.

I don't think we need to take censored sources into consideration.

Lisa

R Shalom Berger sent me this article by R' Rosen of Machon Zomet's response
to this question. See
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/zometLaserShaving.pdf>

AIUI, he doesn't see a problem of hashchasas zaqein, since it's not a
razor. Ths is sereifah, not hashchasah. However, then it comes to pei'os,
where the SA (YD 181:3) has a yeis lachush to those who prohibit using
scissors too...

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Life is a stage and we are the actors,
mi...@aishdas.org        but only some of us have the script.
http://www.aishdas.org               - Rav Menachem Nissel
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On 10/15/2015 03:04 PM, Lisa Liel via Avodah wrote:
>>>
>> To my way of thinking there is a difference. The practices that the Jews
>> from Spain found in the countries they fled to were "relatively new. "
>
> I think this was only the case in places that didn't have a strongly
> established local custom. Jews who left Spain for Eastern Europe are
> Ashkenazim today.

Only if you mean "established" in the technical sense of government
authority.   All over the Mediterranean the Sefardim settled en masse
and rather than join the existing communities they founded their own,
with their own minhagim, and in many places (including EY) overwhelmed
the locals with their numbers.   That they didn't do this in Germany
and Eastern Europe may be because their numbers were lower, but I think
it more likely that it was because the existing kehillos were established
in the 1st amendment sense; the government recognised them, and did not
allow the practise of Judaism outside them.   (That's why, centuries
later, RSRH needed German law changed to permit austritt.)

-- 
Zev Sero               All around myself I will wave the green willow
z...@sero.name          The myrtle and the palm and the citron for a week
                And if anyone should ask me the reason why I'm doing that
                I'll say "It's a Jewish thing; if you have a few minutes
                I'll explain it to you".

R' Micha Berger wrote:

> I think the bitul asei is only if one had a karkafta delo
> manach tefillin. So, after one's bar mitzvah, there is no
> bitul asei in omiting tefillin.

Are you saying that tefillin is a chiyuv d'Oraisa only once per lifetime?
I've heard that before, but have not seen any evidence of it. Any
citations? Are there any other chiyim which are only once per lifetime?

Some practical questions: If someone already wore tefillin once before, and
puts them on again now, is it a Chiyuv D'rabanan, or a Kiyum D'Oraisa, or
something else? And is he guilty (b'shogeg) of Bal Tosif for mistakenly
thinking that it would be a Chiyuv D'Oraisa?

Akiva Miller
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There has been discussion about why the Jews when 
they returned to Israel did not adopt the 
practices of EY regarding the leining of the 
Torah and other issues.  This got me to wondering 
about when the Jews did return to Israel.  The 
following is from 
http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/return_to_the_land_of_israel/


EARLY MIGRATIONS

During the time of the Muslims, life for the Jews 
here was for the most part easier than under the Christians.

In 1210, following the demise of the Crusaders, 
several hundred rabbis, known as the Ba?alei 
Tosefot, re-settled in Israel. This marked the 
emergence of the first Ashkenazic European community in Israel.

In 1263, the great Rabbi and scholar Nachmanides 
also known as the Ramban, established a small 
Sephardic community on Mount Zion which was 
outside the walls. (See Part 47.) Later, in the 
1400s, that community moved inside the walls and 
they established the Ramban Synagogue which still exists today.

When Nachmanides came to Jerusalem there was 
already a vibrant Jewish community in Hebron, 
though the Muslims did not permit them entry into 
the Cave of the Machpela (where the Jewish 
Patriarchs and Matriarchs are buried). Indeed, 
this ban continued until the 20th century.

More Jews started to migrate to Israel following 
their expulsion from Spain in 1492. In the 16th 
century, large numbers of Jews migrated to the 
northern city of Tzfat (also known as Safed) and 
it became the largest Jewish population in Israel 
and the center of Jewish mysticism?the Kabbalah.

In mid-1700s a student of the Ba?al Shem Tov by 
the name of Gershon Kitover started the first 
Hassidic community in Israel. This community was 
part of what was called Old Yishuv. (Today, when 
in the Old City of Jerusalem, you can visit the 
?Old Yishuv Court Museum? and learn some fascinating facts about it.)

Another very significant event in the growth of 
the Jewish community of Israel took place in the 
early 19th century. Between 1808 and 1812 three 
groups of disciples of the great rabbi Rabbi 
Eliyahu Kramer, the Vilna Gaon , numbering about 
500 people, came to the land of Israel. Initially they settled in Tzfat in the
Galilee, but after several disaster including a 
devastating earthquake, they settled in 
Jerusalem. Their impact was tremendous. They 
founded several new neighborhoods (including Mea 
Shearim) and set up numerous Kollels (Yeshivot 
where married men are paid a monthly stipend to 
study Torah). Their arrival revived the presence 
of Ashkenazi Jewry in Jerusalem, which for over 
100 years had been mainly Sephardi and had a huge 
impact on the customs and religious practices of 
the religious community in Israel.

By 1880, there were about 40,000 Jews, living in 
the land of Israel among some 400,000 Muslims

See the above URL for more.

YL

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 R Micha wrote....
> How long must a man wear tefillin? Well, in the ideal it should be
> whenever he is awake and not doing manual labor. In RASHI'S DAY, FEW
> WORE TEFILLIN AT ALL. Today men wear it for davening, but only in order
> to say Shema without looking like liars...

Please elaborate on the highlighted portion.

Brian Wiener

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:39:33PM -0400, Akiva Miller wrote:
: Are you saying that tefillin is a chiyuv d'Oraisa only once per lifetime?
: I've heard that before, but have not seen any evidence of it. Any
: citations? Are there any other chiyim which are only once per lifetime?

I assume you mean that aren't definitionally so. Like you can only have
your second child once in a lifetime. Or receive a beris milah.

: Some practical questions: If someone already wore tefillin once before, and
: puts them on again now, is it a Chiyuv D'rabanan...

Perhaps you lost sight of the subject line? The topic of tefillin came
up because I suggested it's a mitzvah wiyumis that is not a mitzvah
machshirah (the right way to do something, if you choose to do it --
eg shechitah or eating on Sukkos [after the first night]). Then, in
response to a post and an off-list email, I realized I was really saying
that like exceeding shiur in general is a mitzvah kihumis, giving daily
tefillin as an example.

For that matter, so would be spending extra on hidur mitzah.

Going beyond the minimum of the chiyuv, though, wasn't really what we
were looking for.

Then there is the machloqes as to whether yishuv EY is a mitzvah chuyuvis
or qiyumis. (I heard R' Eitam Henkin Hy"d has a nice discussion that
includes a wide survey, but I haven't found it. My Googling abilities
are much weaker in Hebrew.))

This disussion of mitzvah makhshirah vs mitzvah qiyiumis just brought
to mind Kant's hypothetical imperative (if you want to tie a knot,
you need to get some string) vs. caegorical imperative (what's morally
right, something you ought to do unconditional on trying to acheive a
particular goal).

Excvept that a mitzvah qiyumis isn't an imperative, as by definition
there is no chiyuv.


On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 03:39:46AM +0000, Brian Wiener wrote:
: Please elaborate on the highlighted portion.

R' Saadai Gaon has a teshuvah about whether it's yuhara for someone
who learns all day to put on tefillin, given that most people around
him didn't.

The Semag (asei #3) mentions the neglect.

Also, Tosafos (Shabbos 49a, "keElishah").

Even as late as the Kol Bo... The BY (EhE 65) quotes the KB as suggesting
that the reason why some chasanim don't put ashes on their head is because
the minhag didn't take hold or perhaps faded away in communities that
don't put on tefillin.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Life is complex.
mi...@aishdas.org                Decisions are complex.
http://www.aishdas.org               The Torah is complex.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                                - R' Binyamin Hecht

I recently queried 'Does your shul ever allow anyone other than the b?al
koreih say the chatzi kaddish after Torah reading?" I heard in respone,   
?Actually this is the custom of Sephardic jews?  which made me realize that
the underlying question might be -how did the use of a bal korei change the
role of the oleh?  Any thoughts on if this is the right approach and, if
so, the answer?

KT
The eternal nation does not fear the long road
"?? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?????"

Joel Riich

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On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 01:02:07PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: I recently queried 'Does your shul ever allow anyone other than the
: b'al koreih say the chatzi kaddish after Torah reading?" ..

Moshav Matityahu's shul has signs warning visiting aveilim that they
hold only one aveil says qaddish at a time. The sign credits the MB,
but it's the Rama too.

In order to accomodate multiple aveilim, they maximize the opportunities
any given aveil to say qaddish. Including have an aveil go to the bimah
after Qeri'as haTorah to say the Chatzi Qaddish.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Every child comes with the message
mi...@aishdas.org        that God is not yet discouraged with
http://www.aishdas.org   humanity.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Rabindranath Tagore

On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 4:02 PM, Rich, Joel wrote:
> I recently queried 'Does your shul ever allow anyone other than the b'al
> koreih say the chatzi kaddish after Torah reading?" I heard in respone,
> "Actually this is the custom of Sephardic jews"  which made me realize that
> the underlying question might be -- how did the use of a bal korei change the
> role of the oleh?  Any thoughts on if this is the right approach and, if
> so, the answer?

Please see the Shaarei Ephraim's description of the minhag.
Perek 10 seif 9.
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=34320&;st=&pgnum=292

A

On Thu, Oct 01, 2015 at 08:19:03AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: I'm shocked, and I'm not exaggerating. Is there no Shehecheyanu on the
: mitzva of eating matza?

The Avudraham (on the Haggadah ad loc) says we don't make shehachiyanu
on Matzah only because Maggid just ended with a berakhah that included
"vehigi'anu halaylah hazeh le'ekhol bo matzah umaror."

He giest a second answer -- that it's covered by the shehechiyanu
in Qiddush.

There is a machloqes between the author of Liqutei Ta'amin uMinhagim
and R SY Zevin as to whether this premature shehechiyanu would be
effective. LTuM questions the Avudraham's 2nd answer because while we
have a chiyuv to keep the other mitzvos of Purim in mind when saying
shehachiyanu at megillah reading, there is no mention of a parallel
requirement here.

R' Zevin wrote the author suggesting chiluqim:

1- The Rosh says the shehechiyanu to apply retroactively to bediqas
chameitz, which there is also no mention of kavanah -- so later in time,
lo kol shekein!

2- The shehechiyanu at Megillah is by default only on megillah. One made
at qiddush is for the YT as a whole.

ROY (Chazon Ovadiah, Pesach vol 2, pg 23) tells you to have matzah,
maror and sippur yetzi'as mitzrayim in mind when saying shehechiyanu
in Qiddush. Apparently he assumes the Avudraham's 2nd answer does mean
a chiyuv exists.

IOW, there is a chiyuv to say shehechiyanu on the mitzvah of matzah,
it's just fulfilled in other ways.

As for not liking matzah... The berakhah would be on the mitzvah,
not the food. And mitzvos lav leihanos nitenu, so it should require a
similar shehachiyanu either way.


Tangentially: R' RY Eisenman spoke Fri night about whether there is
a chiyuv to make a shehechianu on a new gun. The literature discusses
swords. (Tie in to current events, and his son wanting to have a gun
when out in chutzos Y-m.)

R' Zilberstein says no, because it's not there for hana'ah, it's there
to avoid a threat. RREY didn't understand why that line of reasoning
wouldn't exclude making a shehechiyanu on a designer raincoat -- after
all, you only wear them to avoid rain.

(Li nir'eh RYZ was talking about a cheap utilitarian raincoat and in
our case, would only apply to a gun bought for function only -- and
not for an effieianado.)

I was wondering why RRYE was handling the question in terms of a
new keli, and not in terms of whether a hekhsher mitzvah gets a
shehachiyanu. After all, if there was no need to defend an attacked
Jew, he wouldn't be buying the gun...

All of which reminded me of this thread, which is why it got this belated
reply.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The purely righteous do not complain about evil,
mi...@aishdas.org        but add justice, don't complain about heresy,
http://www.aishdas.org   but add faith, don't complain about ignorance,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      but add wisdom.     - R AY Kook, Arpelei Tohar

R' Micha Berger offered some references to Avudraham, R SY Zevin, and Rav
Ovadia Yosef, which he summarized:

> IOW, there is a chiyuv to say shehechiyanu on the
> mitzvah of matzah, it's just fulfilled in other ways.

But that answers a question which is slightly different than the one that I
had asked. It answers the question, "Why does it SEEM that we never say
Shehecheyanu on the mitzva of eating matzah?"

But that wasn't my question. My question concerned the situation where one
is omitting Asher Ga'alanu because he has neither any kind of wine nor any
kind of chamar medinah, and is saying Kiddush directly on the matzah. In
such a case, he holds the matzah in his hands, and says Hamotzi, Kiddush,
Shehecheyanu, and THEN Al Achilas Matzah, and then eats the matzah.

As I wrote in my previous post, this is the sequence prescribed by the
Maamar Mordechai (and cited l'halacha by Beur Halacha 483 "Ad Shegomer" and
Kaf HaHayyim 483:8), who reasons that "birkas zman bichlal kiddush hu" -
Shehecheyanu is part of Kiddush. It seems clear to me that according to
Maamar Mordechai, Beur Halacha, and Kaf HaHayyim, matza is *not* relevant
to Shehecheyanu. Furthermore, this sequence of brachos is exactly parallel
to the way most say Kiddush on the second night of Sukkos (placing Layshev
BaSukkah *after* the Shehecheyanu), and is specifically designed to include
the holiday in the Shehecheyanu, and to *omit* the sukkah itself from the
Shehecheyanu.

This is in sharp contrast to the *first* night of Sukkos, where we say
Hagafen, Kiddush, Layshev, and finally Shehecheyanu at the very end,
specifically to insure that the Shehecheyanu is not merely on the holiday,
but on the sukkah too.

In other words: It is very nice that when we are at normal Seder, various
poskim tell us to have the matzah in mind when we say the Shehecheyanu at
kiddush, or when we say V'higiyanu on the second cup. But law is clarified
by the *un*usual cases, such as an abbreviated Seder which doesn't have a
second cup. In such a case, it seems that matzah does not get a
Shehecheyanu AT ALL. I find that surprising, and even shocking, that sukkah
gets a Shehecheyanu, but matzah does not.

On a related issue, RMB wrote:

> Tangentially: R' RY Eisenman spoke Fri night about
> whether there is a chiyuv to make a shehechianu on
> a new gun.

To me, this sounds relevant to the question of saying Shehecheyanu at
Bedikas Chametz. I'm too lazy to look this up directly, but the
Halachipedia (http://halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Bedikat_Chametz)
offers three different answers at footnote 101:

> Bear Hetiev says it?s included in Shehecheyanu of Yom
> Tov, Pri Megadim M?Z 431:2 says it?s not a mitzvah of
> Simcha, Meiri says there?s no Shehecheyanu on Bedika
> which is just done to prevent you from a prohibition.
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On 10/18/2015 04:50 PM, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:

> My question concerned the situation where one is omitting Asher
> Ga'alanu because he has neither any kind of wine nor any kind of
> chamar medinah, and is saying Kiddush directly on the matzah.

By "omitting" I assume you mean "saying it later".


> This is in sharp contrast to the *first* night of Sukkos, where we
> say Hagafen, Kiddush, Layshev, and finally Shehecheyanu at the very
> end, specifically to insure that the Shehecheyanu is not merely on
> the holiday, but on the sukkah too.

I see where you've misunderstood.   The shehechayanu on the first
night is also on the *sukkah*, not on the mitzvah of sitting in it.
Rather than say shehecheyanu when we build the sukkah, we wait until
the first time we use it and include it in the shehecheyanu we're
saying then anyway.

-- 
Zev Sero               All around myself I will wave the green willow
z...@sero.name          The myrtle and the palm and the citron for a week
                And if anyone should ask me the reason why I'm doing that
                I'll say "It's a Jewish thing; if you have a few minutes
                I'll explain it to you".

Regarding the start of Mashiv Haruach Umorid Hagashem/hageshem on Shmini
Atzeres, we find: "It is assur to mention Geshem until the Shliach Tzibur
announces it." - Mechaber 114:2.

This announcement is critically important, as we see from several halachos.
For example, the announcement itself ought to be made at Maariv (of Shmini
Atzeres) but is done at Musaf instead, because more people are at shul for
Musaf than for Maariv. Similarly, if someone can't make it to shul for
whatever reason, he should delay his private Musaf until he knows that the
announcement was made in shul. And the poskim discuss other problems too,
like a shul with multiple minyanim, and some are saying Shacharis after
another has already said Geshem at Musaf.

Why on earth is this announcement so very important?

And why is there no announcement at all for Tal Umatar?

Beginning at Maariv tomorrow night in Eretz Yisrael (in December in chu"l),
Tal Umatar will be added to the Shmoneh Esreh. I'm sure that there will be
reminders of various sorts in all the shuls and via other methods. But none
of those reminders are halachically mandated in the manner that the
announcement for Geshem is.

Why the difference? Both Geshem and Tal Umatar are so important that
omitting them requires one to repeat his tefilah. So why is one
orchestrated with a special piyut from the chazan, while the other is no
more than an instruction in the siddur?

Akiva Miller
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