Volume 33: Number 134
Thu, 15 Oct 2015
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 19:30:19 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] When to say Hallel?
On Wed, Oct 07, 2015 at 07:54:05AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: As far as I know, whenever Hallel is said, it is said immediately after the
: Shmoneh Esreh of Shacharis...
I believe this is because Hallel is tachanunim, as is placed "basar
tzelosana", just as E-lokai Netzor and the other tachanunim in
the gemara were.
Veyara'ayah, Qaddish Tisqabel is always after tefillah vesachanunim,
"tisqabel tzelosehon uva'us-hon...." And Qaddish is after Hallel, not
separating Shemoneh Esrei and Hallel.
The fact that it's a unit with Shemoneh Esrai would explain why we
don't insert leining in between, even though it's tadir.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger "Fortunate indeed, is the man who takes
mi...@aishdas.org exactly the right measure of himself, and
http://www.aishdas.org holds a just balance between what he can
Fax: (270) 514-1507 acquire and what he can use." - Peter Latham
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Message: 2
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 19:37:22 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Shaving with a Skarp - permitted?
On Sun, Oct 04, 2015 at 03:05:32PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: ..., I was taught that the issur of hashchasa refers not to
: the destruction of the beard, but to destruction of the skin, and since ALL
: electric shavers have some sort of screen or guard between the skin and the
: cutting mechanism, they are all mutar to use. According to this view, I
: would imagine that the critical question is how well this device can
: distinguish between hair cells and skin cells...
It is allegedly tuned to a color which is absorbed by hair but not skin.
To quote their kickstarter:
After years of research & development, they discovered a chromophore
in the hair that would be cut when hit with a particular light
wavelength.
Chromophores are particles that absorb certain wavelengths (colors)
of light.
This chromophore they identified is shared by every human, regardless
of age, gender or race.
I say allegedly because the people at Popular Mechanics believe they're
far from prime time, with some science/tech questions still open that
may not have resolution. See
<http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/gadgets/a17782>.
Still, here we discuss halakhah, and even if the case turns out to be
hypothetical, at least for the foreseeable future, I still think it
could push us to turn up some interesting lomdus.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger When we are no longer able to change a situation
mi...@aishdas.org -- just think of an incurable disease such as
http://www.aishdas.org inoperable cancer -- we are challenged to change
Fax: (270) 514-1507 ourselves. - Victor Frankl (MSfM)
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Message: 3
From: Simon Montagu
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 02:24:03 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Simchas Torah is Really a Holiday for Bavel and
On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 7:54 PM, Prof. Levine via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
>
> And indeed this has been my question all along. Why did the Jews when
> they returned to EY adopt the "Golus" practice of reading the Torah yearly
> as was done in Bavel? Why didn't they go back to the original practice of
> EY?
>
I think as a general rule the Jews expelled from Spain retained their own
minhag in the lands where they were dispersed rather than adopting the
local practice, whether in North Africa, Italy, the Balkans or wherever. If
this was the case in places where there was already a community with a
continuous minhag of its own, then all the more so in EY where (AFAIK) the
triennial cycle and other old EY minhagim were no longer current in the
15th century.
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Message: 4
From: via Avodah
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 20:13:15 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Simchas Torah is Really a Holiday for Bavel and
From: "Prof. Levine via Avodah" _avodah@lists.aishdas.org_
(mailto:avo...@lists.aishdas.org)
Why did the Jews
when they returned to EY adopt the "Golus" practice of reading the
Torah yearly as was done in Bavel? Why didn't they go back to the
original practice of EY?
YL
>>>>>
They realized that a year was a more natural, organic unit of time for the
start and completion of anything than a three-year or three-and-a-half-year
unit of time, which does not correspond to anything in nature.
They also realized that a lot (the majority?) of Jews in Bavel were not
coming back to E'Y and saw a unifying advantage in having the Jews of E'Y and
those of Bavel read the same parsha at the same time (with minor changes
just a few Shabbosim of the year).
Also they realized that the hamon am who may not have had their own sifrei
Torah in their homes were losing the thread of the story when you started
from Bereshis one day and didn't finish until three years later. And people
were forgetting too much in between the start of one cycle and the start
of the next.
Also they prophetically foresaw that an ArtScroll Chumash would have way
too many short choppy chapters if there were 162 parshios instead of 54.
--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
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Message: 5
From: Akiva Miller
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 20:21:14 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Simchas Torah is Really a Holiday for Bavel and
R' Yitzchok Levine asked:
> And indeed this has been my question all along. Why did
> the Jews when they returned to EY adopt the "Golus"
> practice of reading the Torah yearly as was done in
> Bavel? Why didn't they go back to the original practice
> of EY?
Someone once said that if one can phrase his question properly, then he's
already done half the work of solving it. In the current case, I think the
question is hard to answer because it includes a mistaken premise.
You begin by referring to the Jews who "returned to EY". Where were they,
prior to this return? Where were they, when they did this return? Were they
in Eretz Yisrael? I doubt it.
Surely, the Jews of whom you speak did not grow up in Eretz Yisrael. They
grew up somewhere else. Presumably, somewhere in "Golus".
If so, then they did NOT "adopt" this "Golus" practice, nor any other. All
they did was to *continue* the practices that they grew up with.
What they might have done - but did not do - was to adopt the practices of
the Jews who had previously lived there. Why do you think they should have
done that? Do you know of other examples where a community moved to a new
area, and adopted the practices of Jews who had lived there once upon a
time?
R' Micha Berger suggested that according to RYL's reasoning, EY ought to
pasken like the Gemara Yerushalmi in areas where the Bavli differs. RYL
responded:
> There apparently was an established Nusach Ha Tefillah
> in EY as well as for other things. It seems to me that
> this is what they should have gone back to and not
> further.
You are certainly entitled to our opinion, but if you hope to sway anyone
else, your argument should be more substantial than merely how it "seems
to" you.
Akiva Miller
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Message: 6
From: Akiva Miller
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 19:55:52 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Mitzvah Kiyumit
R' Micha Berger gave some examples:
> b- A mitzvah asei that carries no bitul asei if you omit it.
> Tzedaqah (in most cases), tefillin, some claim yishuv EY
> bizman hazeh, etc...
There's no bitul aseh if a man omits tefillin? Could you please elaborate?
Akiva Miller
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Message: 7
From: Moshe Yehuda Gluck
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 03:54:59 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] V'sein Tal U'matar
I was davening with the chazan this afternoon, as I had come into shul late.
He said V'sein Tal Umatar, instead of V'sein Berachah (which, for those who
come across this in the archives years from now, is the point of the year we
are at now). I was in middle of my Shmoneh Esrei, though. No one else in
shul realized. What would you do?
KT,
MYG
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Message: 8
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 06:19:34 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Mitzvah Kiyumit
On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 07:55:52PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: There's no bitul aseh if a man omits tefillin? Could you please elaborate?
Actually, RMP noted off-list, there seems to be an explicit gemara,
Menachos 44a, where R' Sheishes says that he is mevatal 8 mitzvos --
one for each parashah for each tefillah (2 x 4).
Which led me to realize that for tefillin, like tzedaqah, I was thinking
of a case of going beyond the shiur.
How long must a man wear tefillin? Well, in the ideal it should be
whenever he is awake and not doing manual labor. In Rashi's day, few
wore tefillin at all. Today men wear it for davening, but only in order
to say Shema without looking like liars.
I think the bitul asei is only if one had a karkafta delo manach tefillin.
So, after one's bar mitzvah, there is no bitul asei in omiting tefillin.
There are also the mitzvos for which someone is eino metzuveh ve'oseh.
But those too are chiyuvim, just not for this person.
Also, in my conditional category, there are mitzvos that are pointless
unless one really wants the result. No one would give a gett just to
be meqayeim the mitzvah. And then there are mitzvos where one makes a
point of meeting the condition -- the way we wear a tallis qatan or
tallis just for the sake of wearing tzitzis.
(And the machloqes about which of the two is shiluach haqen.)
Oi, I forgot so much in the years since Rav Dovid's shiur... I clearly
mangled his original thought.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger A wise man is careful during the Purim banquet
mi...@aishdas.org about things most people don't watch even on
http://www.aishdas.org Yom Kippur.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Rav Yisrael Salanter
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Message: 9
From: Lisa Liel
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 13:37:17 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Milchemes Mitzvah vs Onshei Beis Din
On 10/15/2015 1:16 AM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> RDS raises the issues that "the main damage is harming our moral norms",
> and many understand the Beris Shalom that HQBH cuts with Pinechas to be
> exactly that -- a guarantee against such damage. Certainly soldiers,
> and to a lesser extent even mohalim and shochetim, face this issue
> of being desensitized. And yet, in all those cases, it is outweighed.
WADR to RDS, I think his view is trumped by that of RSBY, which is
brought down l'halakha in all the Rishonim, and is brought in two
separate places in the Shulchan Aruch. HaTov she'bagoyim (b'she'at
milchamah) harog. Period.
Lisa
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Message: 10
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 11:26:24 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Milchemes Mitzvah vs Onshei Beis Din
On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 01:37:17PM +0300, Lisa Liel wrote:
: WADR to RDS, I think his view is trumped by that of RSBY...
: HaTov she'bagoyim (b'she'at
: milchamah) harog. Period.
I mentioned RDS's statement before my question because it appear to
me that it's based on the assumption that we are NOT dealing with
milchamah. An assessment I also quesion.
Which is when I realized I do not know the difference between fighting
a group of copy-cat killing and a milkhemes mitzvah (or according to R
Yehudah, a defensive war is a third category -- milkhemes chovah). Which
is why I asked the chevrah if they knew of a formal definition of where
that line would be.
Rav Aviner addresses that quote (from Mes Soferim) in the context of
mechabelim y"sh at
<http://www.kimizion.org/maamar/tez64a.doc>
RSA explains it as, "even though he is assessed among the goyim as being
good and contructive, kill him." Such as Titus. The Y-mi says it's
beshe'as milchamah, as you do. Rabbeinu Bachya says this is only of
"haba lehargekha, hashqeim vehorgo". See the teshuvah..
See also <http://toravoda.org.il/node/3398> by a "Yochanan ben Yaaqov".
Also, there are girsa'os that have beKanaanim or beAKU"M, rather than
begoyim.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger "I hear, then I forget; I see, then I remember;
mi...@aishdas.org I do, then I understand." - Confucius
http://www.aishdas.org "Hearing doesn't compare to seeing." - Mechilta
Fax: (270) 514-1507 "We will do and we will listen." - Israelites
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Message: 11
From: Zev Sero
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 11:40:14 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Milchemes Mitzvah vs Onshei Beis Din
On 10/15/2015 11:26 AM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> Also, there are girsa'os that have beKanaanim or beAKU"M, rather than
> begoyim.
Clearly changes made for the censors' benefit, and the reader is meant
to understand this.
--
Zev Sero All around myself I will wave the green willow
z...@sero.name The myrtle and the palm and the citron for a week
And if anyone should ask me the reason why I'm doing that
I'll say "It's a Jewish thing; if you have a few minutes
I'll explain it to you".
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Message: 12
From: Prof. Levine
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 03:29:37 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Simchas Torah is Really a Holiday for Bavel and
At 07:24 PM 10/14/2015, Simon Montagu wrote:
>On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 7:54 PM, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
>And indeed this has been my question all
>along. Why did the Jews when they returned to
>EY adopt the "Golus" practice of reading the
>Torah yearly as was done in Bavel? Why didn't
>they go back to the original practice of EY?
>I think as a general rule the Jews expelled from
>Spain retained their own minhag in the lands
>where they were dispersed...
To my way of thinking there is a difference. The practices that the Jews
from Spain found in the countries they fled to were "relatively new. "
The practices in EY presumably went back to at least the time of
the second Bais Hamikdash and, to my way of thinking, have greater
"validity." Furthermore, EY has special kedusha, and I would think
that the practices of the Jews in EY also had special kedusha and hence
should have been reinstated.
YL
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Message: 13
From: Zev Sero
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 11:09:44 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] V'sein Tal U'matar
On 10/15/2015 03:54 AM, Moshe Yehuda Gluck via Avodah wrote:
> I was davening with the chazan this afternoon, as I had come into
> shul late. He said V?sein Tal Umatar, instead of V?sein Berachah
> (which, for those who come across this in the archives years from
> now, is the point of the year we are at now). I was in middle of my
> Shmoneh Esrei, though. No one else in shul realized. What would you do?
The reason one must go back if one asked for rain when it isn't
the rainy season is that rain in the summer is a curse. But it
now it really is the rainy season (when is it not?) and we really
should be asking for rain, and the only reason we don't is that the
irrational minhag of praying for rain only during Iraq's rainy
season is too entrenched to overturn. Therefore bediavad if an
individual did say "tal umatar" he needn't go back. If the chazan
says it, it seems that he does go back, because that is the minhag;
however this is at least a weak halacha, so it seems to me that if
nobody corrects him then there's no need to be mafsik in davening
just to tell him to correct what isn't really a mistake at all.
--
Zev Sero All around myself I will wave the green willow
z...@sero.name The myrtle and the palm and the citron for a week
And if anyone should ask me the reason why I'm doing that
I'll say "It's a Jewish thing; if you have a few minutes
I'll explain it to you".
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Message: 14
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 12:15:53 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] How does Prozbul work?
On Sun, Sep 20, 2015 at 01:33:28PM +0300, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
: In other words these things did not happen simultaneously, pruzbul was
: enacted after shemmitas kesafim was already established.
Perhaps we can say Hillel decided that the need of the poor to obtain
funds meant that we should settle for making a pruzbul as a way of keeping
alive the memory of shemittah deOraisa, rather than practicing the full
shemittah derabbanan as a "lezeikher".
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Feeling grateful to or appreciative of someone
mi...@aishdas.org or something in your life actually attracts more
http://www.aishdas.org of the things that you appreciate and value into
Fax: (270) 514-1507 your life. - Christiane Northrup, M.D.
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Message: 15
From: Lisa Liel
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 22:04:55 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Simchas Torah is Really a Holiday for Bavel and
On 10/15/2015 10:29 AM, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> At 07:24 PM 10/14/2015, Simon Montagu wrote:
>> On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 7:54 PM, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
>> And indeed this has been my question all
>> along. Why did the Jews when they returned to
>> EY adopt the "Golus" practice of reading the
>> Torah yearly as was done in Bavel? Why didn't
>> they go back to the original practice of EY?
>> I think as a general rule the Jews expelled from
>> Spain retained their own minhag in the lands
>> where they were dispersed...
> To my way of thinking there is a difference. The practices that the Jews
> from Spain found in the countries they fled to were "relatively new. "
I think this was only the case in places that didn't have a strongly
established local custom. Jews who left Spain for Eastern Europe are
Ashkenazim today.
Lisa
>
> The practices in EY presumably went back to at least the time of
> the second Bais Hamikdash and, to my way of thinking, have greater
> "validity." Furthermore, EY has special kedusha, and I would think
> that the practices of the Jews in EY also had special kedusha and hence
> should have been reinstated.
>
> YL
> _______________________________________________
> Avodah mailing list
> Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
>
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