Avodah Mailing List

Volume 33: Number 128

Tue, 29 Sep 2015

• 1. Re: prosbul question (Lisa Liel)
• 2. Re: prosbul question (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: prosbul question (Lisa Liel)
• 4. Re: prosbul question (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: Kosher Switch Really Random? (Chesky Salomon)
• 6. Re: Kosher Switch Really Random? (Micha Berger)
• 7. Shemitta Sheilos: Using Arbah Minim of Sheviis - Parts I and II (Prof. Levine)
• 8. Shemittah beyond Shemittah (Prof. Levine)
• 9. Buying minim from a child (Ben Waxman)
• 10. Lechem Mishne on Yom Kippur (Akiva Miller)
• 11. Sefer Recommendation for Sukkot? (Ken Bloom)
• 12. Re: Sefer Recommendation for Sukkot? (Micha Berger)

But a book, you return the same one.  Usually.

On 9/21/2015 8:59 PM, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> On 09/17/2015 06:18 PM, Allan Engel via Avodah wrote:
>
>> "...this even includes things such as food lent to a neighbour
>> because anything which is lent out and another item is returned in
>> its place is considered a halva'ah (a loan)"
>
> Yes, of course.  That is the definition of halva'ah, as opposed to 
> she'elah.
> Both ribbis and shemitah apply to such a transaction.
>

On 09/22/2015 10:04 AM, Lisa Liel wrote:
> On 9/21/2015 8:59 PM, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
>> On 09/17/2015 06:18 PM, Allan Engel via Avodah wrote:

>>> "...this even includes things such as food lent to a neighbour
>>> because anything which is lent out and another item is returned in
>>> its place is considered a halva'ah (a loan)"

>> Yes, of course.  That is the definition of halva'ah, as opposed to she'elah.
>> Both ribbis and shemitah apply to such a transaction.

> But a book, you return the same one.  Usually.

Not usually, always.

There are two utterly different kinds of transaction for which the
English language uses the same words: loan, borrow, lend.   This is
surprising, since usually English is a more precise language than most,
but it is so.

She'elah:  I give you my property, with permission to use it.  It
remains my property, and you must return it on the agreed-upon date,
or when I ask for it, in reasonable shape given the time you had it
and the use to which you put it.  In other words, in slightly worse
shape than when I gave it to you.   I may do this as a favour, but
there is no mitzvah for me to do so.  I am entitled to charge you
for it, in which case the transaction is called  "sechirus", or in
English, "rental".  Shemitah does not apply to this transaction.

Common examples: a book, a car, a tool, a pen.

Halva'ah: I give you my property, and it becomes yours.  I do not
expect it back, ever.  On the agreed-upon date, or when I ask, you
must give me something exactly like what I gave you.   Since you
are a Jew, I have a mitzvah to do this as a favour for you, and am
forbidden from charging you anything for it, and you are forbidden
from paying me anything for it, in any form.   Shemitah applies.

Common examples: $100, a cup of sugar, a rubber band.


-- 
Zev Sero               GChT
z...@sero.name

On 9/22/2015 9:00 PM, Zev Sero wrote:
> On 09/22/2015 10:04 AM, Lisa Liel wrote:
>
>> But a book, you return the same one.  Usually.
>
> Not usually, always.

Several years ago, we borrowed a book from my brother-in-law.  A while 
later, we wanted to return it, but we couldn't find it.  So we bought 
another identical copy and returned that in its place.  So I'm going to 
stick with "usually."

Lisa

On 09/23/2015 03:48 PM, Lisa Liel wrote:
> On 9/22/2015 9:00 PM, Zev Sero wrote:
>> On 09/22/2015 10:04 AM, Lisa Liel wrote:
>>
>>> But a book, you return the same one.  Usually.
>>
>> Not usually, always.
>
> Several years ago, we borrowed a book from my brother-in-law. A while
> later, we wanted to return it, but we couldn't find it. So we bought
> another identical copy and returned that in its place. So I'm going
> to stick with "usually."

Your obligation was to return the exact same book.  Once that became
impossible, you became liable as a shomer; a shomer sachar and a socher
are liable for geneiva va'aveida, so at that point you became liable to
pay the value of the lost book, and that sum became a milveh, and thus
subject to shemitah and ribbis.

-- 
Zev Sero               Gut Yomtov
z...@sero.name

On Mon, Sep 21, 2015 at 2:29 PM, Rich, Joel via Avodah
<avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
> In short I am saying that however much Kosher Switch claims that there is a
> random chance of the switch not going on, it is not really random. At the
> time the switch is flicked the computer "knows" whether it will go on, it
> simply pretends that it doesn't and goes through the motions.

Do you know whether the Star-K-certified "Sabbath mode" ovens use
pseudo-random numbers or true random numbers? (Thermal noise would do
fine; and many processors, even some embedded ones, have such a random
number source.)

--Chesky Salomon

On Sun, Sep 20, 2015 at 06:12:07PM -0400, Shmuel Weidberg via Avodah wrote:
: I just had a look around the internet to see if there was anything new with
: the Kosher Switch...
: There is an issue with this that would not be known to those who aren't
: computer scientists and that is that computers cannot actually create
: random numbers...

I don't think this particular distinction makes a halachic difference.
The question is whether the person doing the action has a reasonable 
chance of predicting the outcome. Actual mathematical randomness might 
not be at issue. As long as I can't know what my flipping the switch 
would do, I would think it should all be the same.

(Think of it as a first cousin to ignoring water bears and other
zooplankton that can only be seen with a magnifying glass when drinking
water.)

...
: Computer can get real random numbers, by generating the seed by looking at
: actions that take place that the computer cannot predict such as when
: somebody presses a key on a keyboard, or when some other sensor is
: activated...

Actually, that's not really random, just less predictable because the
seed generation is outside the machine. A specially designed can get
truly random numbers by using quantum effects. Such as picking up on
the brownian motion of molecules due to heat.

But really, I don't think we have to worry about the difference between
"random" and "not humanly predictable".

Also a side note: I might point out that there are numerous hashkafos in
which every event, or at least every event that impacts a human being,
is subject to hashgachah peratis. And thus, nothing we ever experience
is actually random. Or alternatively, that the word "random" needs a
different translation.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man can aspire to spiritual-moral greatness
mi...@aishdas.org        which is seldom fully achieved and easily lost
http://www.aishdas.org   again. Fulfillment lies not in a final goal,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      but in an eternal striving for perfection. -RSRH

See http://ohr.edu/6522 and http://ohr.edu/t
his_week/insights_into_halacha/6527

See http://cor.ca/view/720/shemittah_beyond_shemittah.html

When I was in yeshiva, we were told to refrain from buying any of the 
four minim from a child. If the product was stolen, a child can't take 
possession via shinu reshut or ma'aseh. Therefore the theft falls on the 
buyer and his minim are pasul.

Thinking about during my jog, I had a few questions:

1) Is this a real chashash or simply are we trying to cover all halachik 
corners? Meaning, if I do buy from a child do I really have anything to 
worry about? And if it isn't a real concern, then why am I not being 
oveir on "chosheid b'kesheirim"?
2) If it is a real chashash (the presence of stolen minim in the market) 
than why buy from an adult? Buying stolen goods is also a sin. At the 
very least, one can only buy from a place with a heksher.
3) Or can one? Can we assume that the kashrut agencies really check were 
their minim come from?
4) Who determines if there is a significant presence of stolen goods in 
the market every year?  I assume that the amount of stolen goods has to 
be above a certain minimum for there to be a real issue?

Ben

In the case where an ill person is eating on Yom Kippur, the Magen Avraham
618:10 brings varying views on whether he needs Lechem Mishne, whether he
includes Yaaleh V'yavo in bentching, and whether he must make Kiddush. Kaf
Hachaim 618:60 repeats much of that, with some changes and additions, and
in 618:61 he points out that the same would apply to children and women who
have recently given birth. Similar things appear in the other nosei keilim
on that se'if.

I got the impression that the pros and cons on these questions were based
mostly on practical and halachic concerns, such as whether or not these
halachos were ever enacted for Yom Kippur. I'd like to know if the
*historical* side is discussed anywhere.

I'm focusing now specifically on Lechem Mishne, and I'm now ignoring
Kiddush and Birkas Hamazon. Here are my questions of historical fact:
During the years in the midbar, did the mon fall on Yom Kippur? Did a
double portion of mon fall on Erev Yom Kippur? If not, then what did the
children eat?

There are several possible answers I can think of:

Perhaps mon fell on Yom Kippur, but only at the homes where where children
or yoldos live.

Perhaps mon did not fall on Yom Kippur, but those homes got a double
portion on Erev Yom Kippur.

Perhaps neither of the above happened, and the children and yoldos had to
make do with whatever other food might have been available. (This
possibility seems odd to me, as it throws a curve ball into the whole "40
years of miracles" idea: Exactly once each year, the children had no choice
but to eat non-miraculous food, and the day for this chinuch was Yom
Kippur.)

I suppose I should also include another possibility, which is that everyone
received their normal supply of mon on Yom Kippur just like on every other
day, but that seems like quite a waste. Perhaps they ate it on Motzaei Yom
Kippur. In which case I'd wonder if only a half-portion might have fallen
that morning. I also question whether Hashem would have placed such a
michshol at the doorways, leaving their mon in the reshus harabim.

Does anyone know of any Midrashim or other sources that might talk about
this?

Akiva Miller

(PS: I only asked about children and yoldos in the midbar, and I did not
ask about other cholim. That's because I think that in the miraculous
Midbar, no one was ever sick, and no one died except on the night of Tisha
B'Av. If anyone wants to discuss this, please begin a new thread.)
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Can anyone recommend good books about Sukkot? I'm looking to better
understand the meaning behind the holiday and its mitzvot, and hopefully
understand how they all fit together. I'm looking for something more in
depth than Sefer HaToda'ah. Does anyone know of something analgous to how
the Maharal's Gevurot Hashem explains Pesach, or have other recommendations
about the holiday?
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On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 11:33:41PM -0400, Ken Bloom via Avodah wrote:
: Can anyone recommend good books about Sukkot? I'm looking to better
: understand the meaning behind the holiday and its mitzvot, and hopefully
: understand how they all fit together. I'm looking for something more in
: depth than Sefer HaToda'ah. Does anyone know of something analgous to how
: the Maharal's Gevurot Hashem explains Pesach, or have other recommendations
: about the holiday?

RYHutner's Pachad Yitzchaq.

(Although the volumes are arranged around Shabbos & YT, and thus would
seem particular to those topics, I would consider it one of the canonical
Jewish philoosphy works of the 20th cent. Not to be skipped by anyone
serious about learning hashkafah.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha


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