Avodah Mailing List

Volume 33: Number 97

Fri, 10 Jul 2015

• 1. Re: kesher ()
• 2. Re: ..v'imru amen (Kenneth Miller)
• 3. Re: ..v'imru amen (Simon Montagu)
• 4. Re: ..v'imru amen (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: kesher (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: ..v'imru amen (Micha Berger)
• 7. Kaddish Yasom (Michael Poppers)
• 8. Re: ..v'imru amen (Simon Montagu)

 
From: Eli Turkel via Avodah  <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>

The word kesher in Hebrew has several  meetings. Is there any deeper
connection between them besides the more  obvious which is a little
farfetched

1) knot
2) connection
3)  conspiracy

-- 
Eli Turkel

 
 
>>>>
 
The deeper connection is -- connection!  All the words formed from  this 
shoresh are words that have "connecting" as their basic meaning.
 
In Edward Horowitz's fascinating and entertaining book, "How the Hebrew  
Language Grew," he has a chapter on how sounds made in the same part of the  
mouth sometimes interchange to form words with similar or closely related  
meanings.  One example he gives is the word kesher, and the related word  
gesher -- a bridge, which connects two places, two sides of a river, two sides  
of a road and so on.
 
Keshes, a rainbow, is something like a bridge connecting two parts of the  
sky.
 
Another example of these interconnected words (this one I've also seen  in 
the Hirsch commentary on Chumash) is the word "tsachak" to laugh, to which a 
 number of other words are related in a phonetic way:
 
Change the ches to an ayin and you get "tsa'ak."  Both tsachak and  tsa'ak 
involve emitting loud sounds -- sounds of mirth or of alarm or  distress.  
(Ches and ayin are both formed in the back of the throat.)
 
Change the tsadi to a sin and instead of "tsachak" to laugh you get  
"sachak" to be happy, to rejoice.  (Tsadi and sin are both  sibilants.)
 
Going back to the word tsa'ak, if you now change the tsadi to a zayin you  
again get a closely related word, "za'ak."
 
And if you take the word "tsa'ir" (young) and change the tsadi to a zayin  
you get "za'ir" small.
 
Change the sin of saraf to a tsadi and instead of burning (saraf) you  get 
refining (tsaraf) gold or silver -- which is done through heat.  
 
Change the zayin of "zahav" to a tsadi and instead of gold you get  
"tzahov," the color yellow.
 
Horowitz points out that these kinds of phonetic relationships can  also be 
found in English, Latin and other languages, but nevertheless I find it  
especially fascinating to trace these connections in Lashon Hakodesh.
 

--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
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R' Mordechai Cohen asked:

> What I don't understand is at the end of our silent s'esrai.
> Why do we say oseh sholom b'mromav..v'imru amen? 
> Who are we saying v'imru amen to?
>
> And I don't think it's there bc the silent SE sbe exactly the
> same as the sh'ztibur version (since the silent SE is a rehearsal).

The same question applies to the V'imru Amen which is near the end of Birkas Hamazon.

Akiva Miller


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On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 6:18 AM, M Cohen via Avodah wrote:
> In various places in dovening, kaddish etc we find the loshon - ..v'imru
> amen.
..
> What I don't understand is at the end of our silent s'esrai.
> Why do we say oseh sholom b'mromav..v'imru amen?
> Who are we saying v'imru amen to?

I'm not sure where I read this, it might be in the old Birnbaum siddur,
but anyway there's an explanation that there was a mutual influence
between the end of SE and the end of Kaddish. SE took on the whole
paragraph "Oseh Shalom ... ve'imru amen" from the end of Kaddish,
and Kaddish took on the three steps backwards from the end of SE (which
makes sense for the STz's Kaddish Titkabbal at the end of the repetition,
but not so much in all other kaddishim)

On 07/08/2015 05:42 AM, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
> R' Mordechai Cohen asked:
>
>> What I don't understand is at the end of our silent s'esrai.
>> Why do we say oseh sholom b'mromav..v'imru amen?
>> Who are we saying v'imru amen to?
>>
>> And I don't think it's there bc the silent SE sbe exactly the
>> same as the sh'ztibur version (since the silent SE is a rehearsal).
>
> The same question applies to the V'imru Amen which is near the end of Birkas Hamazon.

Not really, because it's supposed to be said aloud by one person, with the
others only answering amen.   It's only relatively recently that we've started
each benching for ourselves, even when there's a zimun.


-- 
Zev Sero               I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you
z...@sero.name          intend to commit felony...if a robber meets me in
                        the street and commands me to surrender my purse,
                        I have a right to kill him without asking questions
                                               -- John Adams

On Tue, Jul 07, 2015 at 08:01:24PM -0400, via Avodah wrote:
: In Edward Horowitz's fascinating and entertaining book, "How the Hebrew  
: Language Grew," he has a chapter on how sounds made in the same part of the  
: mouth sometimes interchange to form words with similar or closely related  
: meanings...

Also in RSRH's fascinating and entertaining commentary on the Pentateuch
and a couple of places in CW and elsewhere.

: Another example of these interconnected words (this one I've also seen  in 
: the Hirsch commentary on Chumash)...

See https://books.google.com/books?id=eVAAfn6Itb4C
(The real one; the google preview skips all of your examples.)

    Etymological Dictionary of Biblcal Hebrew:
    Based on the Commentaries of Samson Raphael Hirsch
    by Matityahu Clark

This is a central part of RSRH's exegesis.

I once went through much of Bereishis and Shemos documenting which letters
RSRH considers related enough to qualify as likely to be part of the
same phonetic meta-root. I ended up with the following chart (readable
only in fixed-width-font, eg Courier):

  geroniot    velar            dental dento-lingual  labial
    h,ch        q       |       s,sh    tes     |
    alef        k       |       tz      tav     |       b
    ayin        g       |       z       d       |       p
                                        n ------------- m
    r --------------------------------- l
                y ------------------------------------- v

Letters in the same column are phonetically related (eg hei and aleg)

Vertical lines separate into pairs (eg zayin and dalet, but not
dalet and pei nor tzadi and dalet [paired coumns, different rows]).
The pairs are lingual/velar (use tongue) vs not.

Horizontal lines connect the nasals (mem and nun), the approximants
(lamd and reish) and the semivowels (yud and vav).

The unvoiced letters are all in the top two rows.

Notice how hei-ches and shin/sin-samech fall into parallel positions,
and bege"d kefe"t into the same two rows.


I stopped my analysis when I had gone dozens of peraqim without
needing to change the chart any. Lost interest.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One doesn't learn mussar to be a tzaddik,
mi...@aishdas.org        but to become a tzaddik.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Wed, Jul 08, 2015 at 02:09:57AM -0700, Simon Montagu via Avodah wrote:
: I'm not sure where I read this, it might be in the old Birnbaum siddur,
: but anyway there's an explanation that there was a mutual influence
: between the end of SE and the end of Kaddish...

You might have seen it on-list in Apr or Dec 2006, offered by RPMinden.

RSBA offered a different explanation:
> Siddur Otzar Hatefilos, Likutei Maharich, RS Schwab, Boruch She'omar all
> say that we are whispering to the Malochim - that accompany a person all
> the time. [Maybe 'oseh sholom BIMEROMOV' indicates this?] The earliest
> source seems to be Mateh Moshe - which some cite.

> The OH also brings a nusach - IIRC - Machzor [or Siddur] Roma - that
> indeed does not include the 'Ve'imru Omein' at the end of SE.

RPM believes it was a post-facto explanation, giving meaning to a
pratice that really originated in error.

See the subject line at
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=T#
TO%20WHOM%20ARE%20WE%20WHISPERING%20
and the 3 starting with
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=V#VIMRU%20AMEN
in the archive index.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes
mi...@aishdas.org        "I am thought about, therefore I am -
http://www.aishdas.org   my existence depends upon the thought of a
Fax: (270) 514-1507      Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch

In Avodah V33n96, RAM referred repeatedly to "Kaddish Yasom" -- I think at
least some of his questions might be answered once we understand that
(a) what he called "Kaddish Yasom" is actually the Qaddish (Shaleim, but
without the "tisqaba[i]l" phrase) said by the SHaTZ at the end of davening,
at some point in our history given over to children (eventually/or to
*y'somim*) who could not be SHaTZ (see
http://www.beureihatefila.com/files/Introduction_to_Mourners_Kaddish.
pdf);
and that
(b) Qaddish is said after the learning/reading of chapters of T'hilim or
other K'suvim.

As for Kiddush L'vana (KL), indeed Minhag Ashk'naz did not include "Aleinu"
-- as was noted, the learning/reading of chapters of T'hilim at the end of
KL (similar to doing so after Shacharis and after [Mincha/]Ma'ariv, and
similar to when a *seifer* from K'suvim was read) was followed by Qaddish
(in the Roedelheim, those chapters are 121, 150, and 67, not just 67) --
and KL not being a *t'filas tzibbur* does not impact upon the saying of
Qaddish (although obviously, a *minyan* is required for any *davar
shebiq'dusha*).  HTH :).

All the best from
*Michael Poppers* * Elizabeth, NJ, USA
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On Wed, Jul 8, 2015 at 8:12 AM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 08, 2015 at 02:09:57AM -0700, Simon Montagu via Avodah wrote:
> : I'm not sure where I read this, it might be in the old Birnbaum siddur,
> : but anyway there's an explanation that there was a mutual influence
> : between the end of SE and the end of Kaddish...
>
> You might have seen it on-list in Apr or Dec 2006, offered by RPMinden.
>

My memory was correct as to the attribution, though I garbled the content a
bit. It's on page 48 of the Birnbaum siddur, in the notes to the Kaddish
deRabbanan after Korbanot:

"/Oseh Shalom/, which repeats in Hebrew the thought expressed in the
preceding Aramaic paragraph, seems to have been added from the meditation
recited at the end of the /Shemoneh Esreh/. The same sentence is also added
at the end of the grace recited after meals. The three steps backwards,
which formed the respectful manner of retiring from a superior, were
likewise transferred from the concluding sentence of the /Shemoneh Esreh/.
On the other hand, the phrase "and say Amen", added at the end of the
silent meditation after the /Shemoneh Esreh/, must have been borrowed from
the Kaddish which is always recited in the hearing of no fewer than ten
men."
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