Volume 33: Number 93
Tue, 30 Jun 2015
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2015 14:38:49 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Kaddish with mixed seating
On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 11:33:54AM -0400, Kaganoff via Avodah wrote:
: We require separate seating for a *Devar she-Bikdusha.*
This is news to me. Do those who say that zimmun with a minyan is
a davar shebiqdushah (BY OC 199 "umah shekasav", MB s"q 15) require
separate seating at my shabbos table?
The AhS (200:6) refers to zimun with 10 as "shekhinta sharia", but
I didn't see him mention minyan or davar shebiqdushah.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
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Message: 2
From: via Avodah
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2015 14:52:23 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Kaddish with mixed seating
From: Kaganoff via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
We assume that *Kaddish* is a *Devar she-Bikdusha* and requires a *minyan*
to be recited.
We require separate seating for a *Devar she-Bikdusha.*
In many circles it is not uncommon to have a *siyyum* with a *kaddish *at
a Bar Mitzvah or a Dinner even when there is mixed seating.
Does anyone explicitly discuss this practice and permit it?
Yonatan Kaganoff
>>>>
You see something similar when people make an ad hoc minyan at a wedding
(or an airport lounge). They don't put up a mechitza. Is this situation
explicitly discussed in the halachic literature? It must be. Maybe what
applies to one also applies to the other.
--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============
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Message: 3
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2015 15:32:08 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Kaddish with mixed seating
On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 2:52pm EDT, RnTK wrote:
: From: Kaganoff via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
:> We assume that Kaddish is a Devar she-Bikdusha and requires a minyan
:> to be recited.
:> We require separate seating for a Devar she-Bikdusha.
: You see something similar when people make an ad hoc minyan at a wedding
: (or an airport lounge). They don't put up a mechitza...
Slight topic change. You can have separate seating (or locations in general)
without a mechitzah.
I believe that minyanim were held at the kotel even when the Ottomans didn't
let us put up a mechitzah by separating the genders even without one. I
see R YH Henkin (Responsa on Contemporary Jewish Women's Issues, pg 124
<https://books.google.com/books?id=1QAZVzTJz2MC&;lpg=PA124&pg=PA124>)
rejects the hava amina that mechitzah is only for an established shul. He
requires a mechitzah, not just separate seating at a temporary location
for davening. While a minyan is there, the laws of mara miqdash apply. I
do not whether he would advised the yishuv hayashan not to daven at
the kotel.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
Cc: RYHH
--
Micha Berger The trick is learning to be passionate in one's
mi...@aishdas.org ideals, but compassionate to one's peers.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507
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Message: 4
From: Rich, Joel
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2015 19:21:57 +0000
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Kaddish with mixed seating
Yonatan Kaganoff
>>>>
You see something similar when people make an ad hoc minyan at a wedding
(or an airport lounge). They don't put up a mechitza. Is this situation
explicitly discussed in the halachic literature? It must be. Maybe what
applies to one also applies to the other.
--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com<mailto:t6...@aol.com>
..
=============
http://hebrewbooks.
org/pdfpager.aspx?req=922&;st=&pgnum=66 where R' Moshe deals
with the Mechitza issue but still requires that there not be intermingling.
That's the part I'm unsure of.
KT
Joel Rich
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Message: 5
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2015 19:34:28 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Safeik and Multivalent Logic
On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 05:00:40PM -0400, Micha Berger wrote:
: Back on Fri, 14 May 2004 10:45am EST (yes, 11 years ago) I wrote
: <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol13/v13n023.shtml#31> on the thread
: "Valid halachic change" I wrote:
:> I was at a yarchei ... kallah during Elul in Boston where RYBS...
:> An esrog that was used for the mitzvah is qadosh and assur behana'ah
:> that entire day. And since it's qadosh bein hashemashos, it's gadosh
:> part of the next day and therefore assur behan'ah the entire next day.
...
:> Rov is a non-boolean state, something between yes and no. Therefore,
:> it does not apply after we've taken the question from the realm of
:> machshavah to that of ma'aseh.
: I'm repeating all this because, once again, AhS Yomi showed me that
: something I thought I understood was more complicated than I realized.
: AhS OC 638:5 <http://j.mp/1dGKX9s> distinguishes between muqtza machmas
: mitzvah and other forms of muqtza when it comes to migo de'isqatzei bein
: hashemashos, isqatza'ei lekhulei yoma.
: And so, sukkah and its decorations (the topic of OC 688) are muqtzah the
: following day. But beitzah shenoledah beYT rishon is not muqtzah on the
: next day.
More info at AhS OC 667:1, which distinguishes between sukkah and 4
minim on Shemini Atzeres. Because sukkah would actually be used bein
hashmeshos between the 7th day Sukkos and SA (speaking of EY now),
a sukkah and its decorations are muqtzah on SA. The esrog, because the
mitzvah would habe been done before BhS either way, is not.
It would seem the point in 638:5 appears not to be that mutzah machamas
mitzvah is special, but because the mitzvah would still apply BhS.
: Thoughts, anyone?
Still looking for other perspectives!
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Despair is the worst of ailments. No worries
mi...@aishdas.org are justified except: "Why am I so worried?"
http://www.aishdas.org - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507
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Message: 6
From: Kenneth Miller
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2015 09:54:58 GMT
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Jewish Action 2000 review of RYBS book
R' Micha Berger wrote:
> Even Moshe Rabbeinu -- he had 70 front-row talmidim and ever since
> we have had 70 panim laTorah.
>
> Any gadol brilliant and subtle enough to be worth following will
> so outstrip his talmidim that each only grasps onto one facet and
> interpretation of a more complex original.
>
> This is far from unique to RYBS.
Here's my guess about what made RYBS unique in this regard: On the one
hand, he did have his opinions about many things. But that was NOT what he
tried to pass on to his talmidim. In fact, he is famous for NOT answering
many of the questions posed to him. What RYBS wanted was for his talmidim
to be able to decide for themselves. He never wanted to teach his talmidim
WHAT to think, but HOW to think.
Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
Buffett???s Warning for YOU
4 in 5 Americans aren???t taking his shocking advice. Click here now.
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Message: 7
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2015 11:10:02 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Jewish Action 2000 review of RYBS book
On Thu, Jun 25, 2015 at 09:54:58AM +0000, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
:> This is far from unique to RYBS.
: Here's my guess about what made RYBS unique in this regard: On the
: one hand, he did have his opinions about many things. But that was NOT
: what he tried to pass on to his talmidim. In fact, he is famous for NOT
: answering many of the questions posed to him. What RYBS wanted was for
: his talmidim to be able to decide for themselves. He never wanted to
: teach his talmidim WHAT to think, but HOW to think.
I realize that this is about to get meta, because I'm about to disagree
with RAM about RYBS's position and why people disagree about what it
was.
I thin this is overplayed. Yes, he pushed fledgling rabbis to assert
themselves as LOR and not defer every halachic question. But he didn't
do this with every talmid, nor with every question. I think people are
taking a pedagogic technique used for talmidim to scared to pasqen and
turning it into a principle.
Im kein ein ladavar sof, and there is no way to say he took positions
for anyone but himself and his mispalelim in Boston and Moriah. No
Qol Dodi Dofeiq promoting Zionism, no attack on RERackman's beis din,
etc...
And besides, we aren't talking about whether his talmidim vary, but
why the talmidim's understandings of the rebbe's position varied.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Never must we think that the Jewish element
mi...@aishdas.org in us could exist without the human element
http://www.aishdas.org or vice versa.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch
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Message: 8
From: Rich, Joel
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2015 15:56:25 +0000
Subject: [Avodah] Hakarat Hatov
Does Hakarat Hatov engender a measurable "liability" (e.g. require a
marginally greater action) between the recipient and the provider of the
"Tov", or is saying "Thank you, I appreciate it" the only requirement?
KT
Joel Rich
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Message: 9
From: Eli Turkel
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2015 11:19:39 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] Jewish Action 2000 review of RYBS book
<<Any gadol brilliant and subtle enough to be worth following will
so outstrip his talmidim that each only grasps onto one facet and
interpretation of a more complex original.
This is far from unique to RYBS.>>
In addition like many others RYBS gave different answers to different
people depending on the person and circumstances.
As a simple example he encouraged his talmidim to move to EY but told some
to stay in the US.
Also RYBS was big believer in everyone making their own decisions and not
simply doing what they were told. Hence, he avoided certain statements so
that his talmidim would make up their own minds.
It is well known that all the children of RYBS got a PhD. Even his nephew R
Meiselman the most charedi in the family received this degree from MIT.
Nevertheless he never publically stressed this idea probably because he
felt it was a very individual decision
--
Eli Turkel
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Message: 10
From: Chesky Salomon
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2015 22:37:36 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Alternate texts for the Prayer for the Government
Gut voch to all,
What alternative texts exist for the tefillah l'shlom malchus? I have
heard that other versions exist, perhaps more suited for a Republic
than is "Hanosen teshua la-melachim", but the only version I could
find comes from a Conservative source -- putting me in the same
situation as R' Eliezer ben Hyrcanus upon hearing a good "vort" in the
name of Ben Pandera.
Can anyone point me to appropriate sources?
--Chesky Salomon
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Message: 11
From: Chesky Salomon
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2015 23:29:36 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Alternate texts for the Prayer for the
An hour or so ago, I wrote:
> What alternative texts exist for the tefillah l'shlom malchus?
I remember this topic coming up in the past, though I have not been
successful in searching the archives for it. I did find an article by
Dr Jonathan Sarna, "A Forgotten 19th-Century Prayer for the United
States Government: Its Meaning, Significance, and Surprising Author"
[1] which pointed to the "Orthodox prayerbook for American Jews
entitled Tefilot Yisra'el. Prayers of Israel. with an English
Translation."
The variant text Sarna discusses, "Ribbon kol ha-olamim", can be seen
at <https://books.google.com/books?id=a9e0Ei5HHPsC&;pg=PA226> -- but he
makes the case that the prayer's author was Rabbi Max Lilienthal,
leaving me in the same position as before.
(As a side note: I recall one of the J-blogs mentioning a Tefillah for
the State written for 1930s Germany under the Nazi government, but I
cannot find the post again. Any help?)
--Chesky Salomon
[1]: http://www.brandeis.edu/hornstein/sarna/americanjewishcultureandscho
larship/Archive3/AForgottenNineteenthCenturyPrayerfortheUnitedStatesGovenme
nt.pdf
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Message: 12
From: Mordechai Harris
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 07:29:07 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Alternate texts for the Prayer for the
Here's the one I shard last time from the De Sola Pool Siddur.
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/deSolaPoolPrayerForGovernment.pdf
>
-Mordechai
- Please excuse typos as this was sent from my cell phone.
On Jun 28, 2015 2:59 PM, "Chesky Salomon via Avodah" wrote:
> An hour or so ago, I wrote:
>> What alternative texts exist for the tefillah l'shlom malchus?
> I remember this topic coming up in the past, though I have not been
> successful in searching the archives for it...
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Message: 13
From: Simon Montagu
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 01:15:23 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Alternate texts for the Prayer for the
On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 3:29 PM, Mordechai Harris via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
> Here's the one I shard last time from the De Sola Pool Siddur.
> <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/deSolaPoolPrayerForGovernme
> nt.pdf>
>
Can you also share the publication details and/or title page of this
siddur? What I know as the De Sola Pool Siddur is not the same as in this
link. I have the second edition of 1977, and the title page says:
BOOK OF PRAYER
ACCORDING TO THE CUSTOM OF THE SPANISH AND PORTUGUESE JEWS
Edited and translated by
DAVID DE SOLA POOL
Minister of the Congregation Shearith Israel
in the City of New York
PUBLISHED BY THE
UNION OF SEPHARDIC CONGREGATIONS
NEW YORK
The prayer for the government begins with the usual "Hanoten teshu`a
lamelachim"
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