Avodah Mailing List

Volume 33: Number 65

Wed, 22 Apr 2015

• 1. Re: Safeik as Metzi'us (Micha Berger)
• 2. Kilyaim for Sale !? (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)
• 3. Re: hidur (Zev Sero)
• 4. Re: hidur (Micha Berger)
• 5. Matza between Pesach and Shavuos (Sholom Simon)
• 6. The Legacy of RSRH, Zt'L (Prof. Levine)
• 7. Re: Retzuos that are Black on Both Sides (Chesky Salomon)
• 8. Re: hidur (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: hidur (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: hidur (Kenneth Miller)
• 11. Self-control fatigue (Kenneth Miller)
• 12. Re: Self-control fatigue (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: Eilu v'eilu (Simon Montagu)
• 14. Re: Eilu v'eilu (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: Eilu v'eilu (Zev Sero)
• 16. elu v-elu (Eli Turkel)

The story so far:

Briskers don't wear tzitzis outdoors on Shabbos in case the gemara does conclude
that hatekheiles me'eaqes es halavan. (Dspite the tam mishnah, there is
reason to wonder.) And if so, the tassels on your tallis or tallis qatan are
not tzitzis, and wouldn't be tafeil to the beged. On Shabbos -- hotza'ah.
I asked why, since I personally am wearing those tassels because of
the safeiq, wouldn't that mean that in terms of my intent, they are
hotza'ah?

In general, when do we pasqen one din and then use that pesaq as the
metzi'us for the next case? And when do we look at the internals of
that din (in this case, the safeiq) and carry them through to the next din?

Other examples collected so far:

AhS OC 409:6 -- An eiruv techumin made with a safeiq tereifah is not
an eiruv, because you can't eat a safeiq tereifah. We look to the pesaq,
the meat is assur mishum safeiq, not the safeiq itself. (Where a parallel
case in the se'if is ruled safeiq derabbanan lequlah.)

AhS OC 416:8 -- A person wants to make 2 different eiruvei techumin,
one for each day of YT in chu"l. You can't create an eiruv on day 2 that
you cannot reach on day 1. We don't say mima nafshach -- if day 1 is YT,
you don't need the eiruv, and if day 2 is, you were allowed to reach
the food on day 1. Again, we look at the masqanah.

Recently I noticed two more in the AhS:

AhC OC 509:12 -- The Rama (se'if 5) allows libun on YT of a skewer that
that they broiled non-salted meat on to allow using the skewer again that
day. The AhS explains this is not a real tiqun keli, because mei'iqar
hadin it doesn't need libun (cf YD 76), an therefore even if you could
have done the libun on erev YT, you can still do it now.

We DO NOT say that lemaaseh we are not nohagim to use the skewer without
libun, so therefore the skewer went from usable to non-usable. This time
we do look into the cause of the non-use.

I am wondering if it's because beshe'as hadechaq, they would go to a rav
and get a pesaq that they could use the skewer as is, so it's not fully
unusable.

AhS 581:18 -- If fruit are stored in a room that is built from uncemented
bricks and the room breaks, the fruit are usable. We do not say they
a muqtza, because the issur of disassembling the room was only derabbanan,
so he didn't have full hesach hadaas.

Notice that here he is saying that a person is aware of issur derabbanan
being on a lesser level. The ruling is on the metzi'us, but with the
understanding the the metzi'us reflects the wishy-washiness of the issur.

RAM: Does any of this change your proposed sevaros?


Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 16th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Gevurah sheb'Tifferes: What type of discipline
Fax: (270) 514-1507                             does harmony promote?

What would be the kilayim status of this combo?

http://www.territorialseed.com/product/grafted-tomta
to-ketchup-n-fries/new_for_spring_2015

On 04/20/2015 05:52 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> My own dilemma. Say I earmark $X (Y NIS, in your case) to spend on
> my esrog. And say the price of a definitely kosher (or at least, just
> as sure to be kosher) but not very hadar esrog is half that or less.
> Should I buy myself a mehudar, or should I buy two esrogim and give the
> other to someone hitting on hard times? Shouldn't the asei (tzedaqah,
> dei machsero) trump a "mere" hidur mitzvah (esrog)? And yet, we know
> many great rabbanim who didn't follow this calculus. What am I missing?

Perhaps that they would then let the other person use their mehudardige
esrog, so both benefit.

-- 
Zev Sero               I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you
z...@sero.name          intend to commit felony...if a robber meets me in
                        the street and commands me to surrender my purse,
                        I have a right to kill him without asking questions
                                               -- John Adams

On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 06:57:15PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
:>                                     ... Shouldn't the asei (tzedaqah,
:> dei machsero) trump a "mere" hidur mitzvah (esrog)? And yet, we know
:> many great rabbanim who didn't follow this calculus. What am I missing?

: Perhaps that they would then let the other person use their mehudardige
: esrog, so both benefit.

So, both get the mitzvah of esrog with a hadar esrog. But I asked about
fulling tzedaqah. How does a matanah al menas lehachzir qualify? And
for someone used to having their own esrog, how is it "dei machsero"?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

 

Somebody (either here or on Areivim) was asking about the minhag to
eat matza between Pesach and Shavuos. 

I happened to pick up a sefer
called "Bein Pesach u'Shavuos" (by R Zvi Cohn) and saw a few mentions
about this. First, he cites the Gr"a that he never ate matza when it was
not Pesach. I think the reasoning is that he didn't want to get hana'ah
from it, but, rather, eat it only because it was a mitzvah. 

But then,
later in the sefer, I saw reference to (a) a minhag (Belz and Chernobyl)
to eat matza to eat matza on every shalosh seudos between Pesach and
Shavuos, and wetting it with fish juice/gravy; and (b) v'yesh a minhag
to eat matza *every* time one washes for bread, in order to combine
"michlei d'm'heimnusa u'michlei d'asvasa" food/meal of emuna and
food/meal of refuah (apologies for messing up the vowels). The footnote
cites the sefer "Darchei Chayim v'Sholom" siman 633. And also to be
m'dakdek to make one kugel for shabbos with matza and to pass it around,
particularly on shalosh seudos after the z'miros. 

I don't translate so
well, so if you want to see "inside" R Cohn's sefer, I put it here:
http://s3.postimg.org/wukbartcj/matza.jpg [1] and if you look and find
mistakes, please let the list (or at least me!) know! 

FWIW & Kol tuv,


-- Sholom 

Links:
------
[1]
http://s3.postimg.org/wukbartcj/matza.jpg
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20150420/e5c46afb/attachment-0001.htm>

At 05:52 PM 4/20/2015, RN Toby Katz wrote:
>
>I am grateful to RYL (Prof. Levine) for making this pamphlet available  to
>the public as a pdf.  However I note that he is often highly critical of
>the charedi world, and I believe that R' Hirsch would emphatically not have
>agreed with him.  He would have honored and cherished the talmidei  chachamim
>who devote their lives to limud haTorah, and would have educated his
>balabatim to take pride in the zechus of financially supporting the 
>"black hat"
>yeshivos.

This is pure speculation on your part.  I believe that RSRH would 
have agreed with my views on this matter.  Of course,  this is pure 
speculation on my part.

He certainly would not have agreed with the idea of not working to 
support one's family.  See my article

"<http://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/front-p
age/the-obligation-to-support-a-family/2015/02/18/0/?print>The 
Obligation to Support a Family"  The Jewish Press, February 18, 2015, 
front page.

and the extensive quotes I have there from the writings of Rav Dr. 
Joseph Breuer,  ZT"L,  who was, of course,  a grandson of RSRH and 
the foremost expositor of TIDE during his life time.

>
>I would also note that R' Hirsch would certainly not have shared RYL's dour
>  view of present-day Eretz Yisrael.  True, all the flaws and failings of
>Zionism are abundantly on display in the modern Medinah.  But at the same
>time, it takes an almost willful blindness not to see the 
>incredible  miracles
>that have been taking place there over the past sixty years or so. Not  the
>least of these miracles is a flourishing of Torah scholarship, be'eichus
>uvekamus, the likes of which has not been seen since the churban Bayis
>Sheni.  We owe at least a small measure of gratitude to the 
>Zionist  government
>that helps provide the infrastructure for the Torah community to  flourish,
>and a huge measure of gratitude to the Ribono Shel Olam for allowing  us to
>live in a time in which the beginning of kibbutz galuyos is taking place
>before our eyes.  The sight of thousands of men, young and old, from all
>corners of the world, streaming into the Mirrer Yeshiva each day, gives us  a
>little foretaste of what it will be like to visit the Third Bais  Hamikdash.

Again,  I have to disagree.  I suggest you read Rav Breuer's writings 
about EY in the book A Unique Perspective under the heading Eretz Yisroel.

The following are some excerpts from his essay The State of Israel.

The proclamation of a Jewish state would bring great joy to all
the members of our people, if conditions were such that we could
feel justified to call it a Kiddush Hashem. It pains us to say, and we
have no illusions, that for the time being this is not the case. For
every Torah-true Jew the word Kiddush Hashem is his utmost concern,
while Chillul Hashem leaves him trembling. Thus the establishment
of a Jewish state will fill him with misgivings and alarm.

Anyone who is imbued with the eternal truth and validity of
God's Torah will have to be aware that a state on God's holy soil
will only be able to endure if the conditions that God has set down
for a Jewish state on His holy soil are met. These conditions apply
to the Jewish entity and to the life of every individual who declares
himself a member of God's People.

Again,  please read Rav Breuer's essays on Eretz Yisroel in this book.

Also,  please read Rav Shimon Schwab's essay Zion or Zionism that I 
have placed at 
http://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/zion_or_zionism.pdf  Rav 
Schwab was most certainly a proponent of TIDE and the approach of RSRH.

YL


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20150420/4d650c20/attachment-0001.htm>

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 11:34 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
> There was a bachur next to me this morning whose retzu'os were painted
> black on both sides. And I believe I know why this is done, in case
> a retzu'ah gets flipped. Or perhaps to be chosheish for the Rambam's
> description of such retzu'os being "noi".

I've only ever heard of the leather being soaked in dye; and the
reason given was not for flipped retzu'os but for scratches: if the
entire thickness of the strap has been dyed, a scratch will not expose
undyed leather. (This does not address your actual question, though)

?Chesky Salomon

On 04/20/2015 08:21 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> So, both get the mitzvah of esrog with a hadar esrog. But I asked about
> fulling tzedaqah. How does a matanah al menas lehachzir qualify? And
> for someone used to having their own esrog, how is it "dei machsero"?

At a time when an esrog was a luxury that most people could not afford
and were not used to, how often would such a case come up?

-- 
Zev Sero               I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you
z...@sero.name          intend to commit felony...if a robber meets me in
                        the street and commands me to surrender my purse,
                        I have a right to kill him without asking questions
                                               -- John Adams

On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 08:24:32PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: At a time when an esrog was a luxury that most people could not afford
: and were not used to, how often would such a case come up?

... and today?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

R'Zev Sero asked:

> At a time when an esrog was a luxury that most people could
> not afford and were not used to, how often would such a case
> come up?

But it could certainly come up nowadays.

About 25 years ago, my budget was so tight that I had decided to share my
lulav and esrog with my two sons, despite my having gotten them their own
set in previous years. I don't remember whether one or both was still below
bar mitzvah that year, but it doesn't really matter, because the point is
that they were used to having their own, and that year we shared the one
set. Suffice it to say that it was not fun. Baruch Hashem we've each had
own own every year since then.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Want to place your ad here?
Advertise on United Online
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/5535a0f9e88320f87fb2st04vuc

On Areivim, SY Scher wrote:

> A now large body of research shows that we can have "self-control
> fatigue". Professor Roy Baumeister and his colleagues have
> demonstrated experimentally that when people have previously had
> to exert self-control, their ability to do so goes down. They
> have also showed physiological correlates -- will-power/self-
> control takes energy, and after exerting a lot of control, our
> blood glucose level is lower. Replenishment of glucose (for
> example, by drinking lemonade sweetened with sugar, but not
> lemonade with artificial sweeteners) raises self-control ability
> back up. 

> We all know that following the halacha often requires a good deal
> of willpower, and I would imagine that for charedi adolescent boys,
> that would be even more strongly so. So, the ability to control
> the yetzer in outside situations may well be reduced. The muscle
> is just too worn out! 

Is there any way fit this in with the idea that many mitzvos - kashrus
in particular and chukim in general - seem designed to train us to *have*
self-control?

Akiva Miller

On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 01:23:34AM +0000, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
: Is there any way fit this in with the idea that many mitzvos - kashrus
: in particular and chukim in general - seem designed to train us to *have*
: self-control?

If (and that's a big if) we define the yeitzer hara as the effects on our
souls of living within a mammalian body, then the ability to plan ahead
and work toward delayed gratification, rather than just instinctively
going for what's before us, is going to be a fundamental skill in rising
above it.

In R Yitchaq Sher's introduction to the Slabodka edition of Cheshbon
haNefesh (Feldheim bilingual ed.
<https://books.google.com/books?id=dx0OsRAffDQC&;lpg=PP31&pg=PA31>),
the mashgiach speaks of the nefesh habehamis's "lack[ing the will to
exercise choice" and therefore "the tzivui or azharah of an asei or a
lo-sa'asei are not shayach to it at all" (par 2).

He then gives guidelines about how to train it by taking examples
from animal training (par 304).

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 17th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Tifferes: What is the ultimate
Fax: (270) 514-1507                              state of harmony?

On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 8:36 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:

> The Maharal is saying that what RMF calls emes shamamis (I think that
> conjugation is yours, no?) is actually too rich to fit in this universe,
> and certainly in a human mind. Therefore, two shitos can be correct
> descriptions of the Truth, because each are incomplete.
>

Where does the Maharal say this? (Not a challenge, I just want to learn it
inside)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20150421/e7831f8e/attachment-0001.htm>

On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 01:17:49PM +0300, Simon Montagu wrote:
: Where does the Maharal say this? (Not a challenge, I just want to learn it
: inside)

Be'er haGolah, be'er 1, pg 20 in the common edition, available on pg 94
the whole book) in the Harman edition, on hebrewbooks.org
<http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=42832&;pgnum=125>
(Onward, I would print the 1[:6] off the link at the top for the whole
sefer. R YD Hartman has a clearer edition, with copious footnotes.)

I've been citing that Maharal for over a decade, so I had to search for
the actual mar'eh maqom. On nice find was the discussion in Mishpat
Ivri <https://books.google.com/books?id=_b8DQOQ7IOQC&;pg=PA146>. I want
to go through the whole chapter on machloqos (that hit is mid-chapter)
before commenting, but I don't know when I'll get to it.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 17th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Tifferes: What is the ultimate
Fax: (270) 514-1507                              state of harmony?

On 04/21/2015 09:24 AM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 01:17:49PM +0300, Simon Montagu wrote:
> : Where does the Maharal say this? (Not a challenge, I just want to learn it
> : inside)
>
> Be'er haGolah, be'er 1, pg 20

The introduction to the Hartman edition shows that the title is actually
Be'er haGulah, with a melupum rather than a cholam.

-- 
Zev Sero               I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you
z...@sero.name          intend to commit felony...if a robber meets me in
                        the street and commands me to surrender my purse,
                        I have a right to kill him without asking questions
                                               -- John Adams

Sagi in his book on the topic brings 3 basic approaches (all with many
supporters) to the sugya

1) Monism - only one truth
as subfields we can be tolerant of other attempts or not

2) pluralism - there are many truths and one can't decide

3)  harmonism - different views are just separate parts of the same truth

R Michael Avraham points out that pluraism is self-contradictory. According
to that viewpoint one legitimate viewpoint is monism !

He further points out that sometimes pluralism can be a chumra

Question: Can you offer someone food that you think is kosher but he
doesn't accept the kashrut
Answer:
Monism - no problem as you are right and he is wrong
Pluralism - assur since his opinion is acceptable

Of course these are only typologies. In the real world anyone who believes
in pluralism has some radius of acceptance. Few would accept Naziism or
Isis as a legitimate viewpoint

-- 
Eli Turkel
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-ai
shdas.org/attachments/20150422/e48cf8aa/attachment.htm>

------------------------------



_______________________________________________
Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


------------------------------


**************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."


A list of common acronyms is available at
        http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/acronyms.cgi
(They are also visible in the web archive copy of each digest.)