Avodah Mailing List

Volume 33: Number 61

Thu, 16 Apr 2015

• 1. Nikra Choteih? or ?Nikra Rasha? (Rich, Joel)
• 2. Re: chametz post pesach (D)
• 3. Re: chametz post pesach (Kenneth Miller)
• 4. Re: chametz post pesach (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Rabbi Noach Isaac Oelbaum's Position on the Kosher Switch (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Rabbi Noach Isaac Oelbaum's Position on the Kosher Switch (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Rabbi Noach Isaac Oelbaum's Position on the Kosher Switch (Saul Mashbaum)
• 8. Re: Rabbi Noach Isaac Oelbaum's Position on the Kosher Switch (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: Rabbi Noach Isaac Oelbaum's Position on the Kosher Switch (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: {Avodah] tefillat haderech (Saul Mashbaum)
• 11. Re: Rabbi Noach Isaac Oelbaum's Position on the Kosher Switch (Zev Sero)
• 12. Re: Rabbi Noach Isaac Oelbaum's Position on the Kosher Switch (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: Rabbi Noach Isaac Oelbaum's Position on the Kosher Switch (Zev Sero)
• 14. Re: Rabbi Noach Isaac Oelbaum's Position on the Kosher Switch (Samuel Svarc)

The gemara uses the expression ?Nikra Choteih? or ?Nikra Rasha? from time
to time. Has anyone seen anything written on the relative ranking of such
categories? (e.g. since it doesn?t say ?assur?? does it mean it?s not a
complete prohibition but something less?)

KT
Joel RIch

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I've never heard of the minhag but there is a chasidishe minhag to eat 
matsoh every time one washes for hamotsi during the Omer [see Chayim 
VeShoolom - Minhogim of Munkatche Rebbe] - which might be connected.
(The source is the Ari who perceives the spiritual influx of Pesach to be 
repeated over the Omer; the state that warrants the eating of matsoh during 
Pesach carries over till Shovuos. Full 'maturity' that warrants the
eating of chomets is only reached on Shovuos.)
Dovid Rubin 

R' Dovid Rubin wrote:

> (The source is the Ari who perceives the spiritual influx of Pesach
> to be repeated over the Omer; the state that warrants the eating of
> matsoh during Pesach carries over till Shovuos.

This reminds me of the comment (which I've heard several times here on
Avodah, but I don't think anywhere else) that in Moshiach's time, all of
Sefira will be a sort of Chol Hamoed to Pesach.

>                                                 Full 'maturity' that
> warrants the eating of chomets is only reached on Shovuos.)

Shavuos -- a.k.a. -- "Atzeres" -- is of course an entirely distinct
holiday, unrelated to Pesach or to its seven-week long chol hamoed. Chometz
would not be a problem on Shavuos any more than Sukkah is mandated on the
other Atzeres.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
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On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 05:13:44PM +0000, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
: R' Dovid Rubin wrote:
:>                                                 Full 'maturity' that
:> warrants the eating of chomets is only reached on Shovuos.)

: Shavuos -- a.k.a. -- "Atzeres" -- is of course an entirely
: distinct holiday, unrelated to Pesach or to its seven-week long chol
: hamoed. Chometz would not be a problem on Shavuos any more than Sukkah
: is mandated on the other Atzeres.

Entirely distinct, yes. Unrelated.... The chag of cheirus finds its
fruition with "charos - cheirus al haluchos."

The connection between the issur chameitz of Pesach, the barley of the
qorban omer, and the two loaves of chameitz wheat of the Shetei haLechem
is at least as old as the Chinukh.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

Yesterday, at 7:13 pm EDT, I wrote:
> And my question becomes: In that rather typical setting, how the
> switch not gerama of one of those two melakhos? (Or possibly both, if
> a glowing filament is hav'arah, and the resulting boiling of mercury 
> in
> the fluorescent bulb, bishul.)

And then "ssvarc" (RMSS) wrote on Torah Musings at 8:28 am 
<http://k.mp/1Ojtuzf>
or 
<http://torahmusings.com/2015/04/will-the-kosher-switch-
bring-mashiach-2/#comment-108271>
> In all likelihood, the Zomet one doesn?t have the light on a 
> randomized
> timer (with indicators), nor the randomized chance for the light 
> pulse
> to operate the switch.

Now for an updated version of my response (not yet approved) there:

Zomet's Grama Switch does have a randomizer on the LED whose light you
may or may not block. As do Shabbos mode ovens.  The Kosher Switch has
a the same randomizer on the detector opposite the LED, but I don?t
see how that makes anything more random.

But now that you had me looking at their ?How it Works? page, the
key difference has the description of a sefeiq sefeiqa. It?s far from
clear what is meant. Here?s the quote from
<http://www.kosherswitch.com/live/tech/how>:

> This creates two safeiks (Halachic uncertainty): the first, whether
> or not the light pulse of the Light Pulse Pair will fail; the second,
> whether the switch will fail in triggering the circuit based on the
> results of the Light Pulse Pair.

?The switch will fail in triggering the circuit?? What are they
doing to introduce this second safeiq? The best I can tell, it's
a simple bit of software -- a randomizer that says "don't respond
anyway". But that's just guessing, I'm not good enough at reading their
patent to be sure.

Also, in what sense is either a safeiq? Both will eventually happen,
the question is when. I am not sure how ?sefeiq sefeiqa? applies to
gerama, or to be more precise -- avoiding gerama. But at least I?m a
step further in my understanding.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger Here is the test to find whether your mission
mi...@aishdas.org on Earth is finished:
http://www.aishdas.org if you're alive, it isn't.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Richard Bach

PS: On the relevance of random delay to gerama...

AhS OC 514:11 (still catching up to the yomi schedule after Pesach) 
quotes
the Rama (se'if 3) who in turn cites the Maharil that it's permissable
to put a candle in a windy place on Yom Tov that it should be blown 
out,
as long as the wind isn't blowing at the time you're taking it outside.
The AhS explains, "For doing so before the wind comes -- that is
*geram* kibui".

A case of gerama with a random time delay. But this is Yom Tov, where
the laws against extinguishing are looser. The AhS refers you to OC
277:7, where we see that on Shabbos it's assur -- but because of a
special gezeira to prevent people from doing the same when the wind 
*is*
blowing. Not because of gerama.

I also don't think the randomness of the length of the delay is
necessarily relevant. Just pointing out halachic precedent.

But it's certainly not "iffy" that we could invoke sefeiq sefeiqa. It's 
a
random length delay, not a doubt whether or not the switch will 
eventually
cause the outcome. The odds the wind will never come, or the 
randomizer(s)
will never produce a combination that causes the switch to be honored,
is ignorably small. (No one is selling a switch that may or may not 
shut
the light.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 12th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 5 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Hod sheb'Gevurah: What aspect of judgment
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  forces the "judge" into 
submission?

RJRich
>>>Sounds to me like r' asher weiss's makeh bpatish definition.

RMBerger
>>>>
You lost me. I wasn't discussing which melakhah -- if any -- one violates
by using electricity in an of itself, but how using this switch relates
to that melakhah.
>>>


IIAMN, the idea RJR is expressing is that the poseik has ad initio
determined that the action in question is forbidden, and now is
searching around for the category into which to place this prohibition. I
have heard RAWeiss explicitly use this concept in classifying the use of
electricity as makeh b'patish, based on a Yerushalmi - it's not an idea
just made up by contemporary poskim.  It does seem that some poskim are
looking at the switch and saying "it *must *be assur somehow"; in any event
that seems to me to be what RJR is suggesting is going on.

Saul Mashbaum
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On 04/16/2015 02:22 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> "The switch will fail in triggering the circuit"? What are they
> doing to introduce this second safeiq? The best I can tell, it's
> a simple bit of software -- a randomizer that says "don't respond
> anyway". But that's just guessing, I'm not good enough at reading their
> patent to be sure.

Yes, that's how I understood it.  If and when the pulse is received,
instead of automatically triggering the light to turn on, there's a
gatekeeper that flips a coin, heads it obeys the request to turn on
the light, tails it refuses.


> Also, in what sense is either a safeiq? Both will eventually happen,
> the question is when.

In principle it might not ever happen.

The basis of all this seems to be siman 277.  There the concern is that
even if the wind isn't blowing right now, it might start to blow
*immediately* as you begin to open the door.   This implies that if we
can be sure that it won't start blowing until some time after the door
has been opened it will be OK.  But that whole discussion assumes that
extinguishing the flame is not the purpose for which the door is being
opened, it's just a possible side-effect.  Is the halacha different if
that was the intention?


On 04/16/2015 02:46 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
>
> AhS OC 514:11 (still catching up to the yomi schedule after Pesach) quotes
> the Rama (se'if 3) who in turn cites the Maharil that it's permissable
> to put a candle in a windy place on Yom Tov that it should be blown out,
> as long as the wind isn't blowing at the time you're taking it outside.
> The AhS explains, "For doing so before the wind comes -- that is
> *geram* kibui".

But there you're actively taking it to the place where the wind will blow.
Here you're merely opening the door, so that if/when the wind blows the door
won't protect the flame.


> But it's certainly not "iffy" that we could invoke sefeiq sefeiqa. It's a
> random length delay, not a doubt whether or not the switch will eventually
> cause the outcome. The odds the wind will never come, or the randomizer(s)
> will never produce a combination that causes the switch to be honored,
> is ignorably small. (No one is selling a switch that may or may not shut
> the light.)

Why not?  For the shabbos-keeping household, a switch that sometimes fails
is better than no switch at all.

-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 02:45:53PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
: >Also, in what sense is either a safeiq? Both will eventually happen,
: >the question is when.
: 
: In principle it might not ever happen.
...
: >But it's certainly not "iffy" that we could invoke sefeiq sefeiqa. It's a
: >random length delay, not a doubt whether or not the switch will eventually
: >cause the outcome. The odds the wind will never come, or the randomizer(s)
: >will never produce a combination that causes the switch to be honored,
: >is ignorably small. (No one is selling a switch that may or may not shut
: >the light.)
: 
: Why not?  For the shabbos-keeping household, a switch that sometimes fails
: is better than no switch at all.

You want to ask them why not, feel free to do so. I'm not guessing
why they're not setting the randomizers to make each even that
unlikely. Still, they are repeatedly rolling the dice, the odds
of repeatedly getting "no" falls off geometrically with the length
of time in question.

Ignoring milsa delo shekhicha, the light will indeed go on. They say
the average is "several times" at
<http://www.kosherswitch.com/live/tech/use>.

: The basis of all this seems to be siman 277.  There the concern is that
: even if the wind isn't blowing right now, it might start to blow
: *immediately* as you begin to open the door.   This implies that if we
: can be sure that it won't start blowing until some time after the door
: has been opened it will be OK.  But that whole discussion assumes that
: extinguishing the flame is not the purpose for which the door is being
: opened, it's just a possible side-effect.  Is the halacha different if
: that was the intention?

: >AhS OC 514:11 (still catching up to the yomi schedule after Pesach) quotes
: >the Rama (se'if 3) who in turn cites the Maharil that it's permissable
: >to put a candle in a windy place on Yom Tov that it should be blown out,
: >as long as the wind isn't blowing at the time you're taking it outside.
: >The AhS explains, "For doing so before the wind comes -- that is
: >*geram* kibui".
: 
: But there you're actively taking it to the place where the wind will blow.
: Here you're merely opening the door, so that if/when the wind blows the door
: won't protect the flame.

The AhS invites the comparison, not me. Clearly you're making a disinction
that he holds is without a difference.

BTW, I found a reference to the case in the SA at
<http://www.kosherswitch.com/liv/tech/the-analogy>. To quote:

    An alternative Talmudic analogy:

     * There is a candle burning next to a closed window, and a strong
       wind blowing outside.  Certainly, opening the window on Shabbat is
       forbidden, since the candle will be extinguished immediately.

     * There is a device that can determine if there's no wind currently
       blowing, and it can predict with 100% accuracy that no wind will be
       blowing for at least the next ~5 seconds.  It lights up with a
       green light when it has determined this to be true.

     * On Shabbat, a person opens/closes the window while the device's
       indicator is green, knowing that a wind will ultimately blow and
       succeed in extinguishing the candle.

     * More accurately:  A person opens/closes the window before the wind
       is created, before the candle is placed by the window, at a time
       when the device's indicator is green, knowing that sometimes gusts
       of wind hit the candle [its future location] and sometimes they
       miss, and even when they do strike the candle, sometimes they're
       able to extinguish it, but other times they do not... Welcome to
       KosherSwitch (R).

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 12th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 5 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Hod sheb'Gevurah: What aspect of judgment
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  forces the "judge" into submission?

> From: Marty Bluke via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
> Given the above R' Shachter (in Nefesh Harav) says that R' Soloveitchik
> did
> not say tefilas haderech when he commuted from Boston to NY to give his
> shiurim. He felt that because it is a tefila b'eis tzara and nowadays
> there
> is no perceived danger and it is routine that there was no reason to say
> it.

RAsher Weiss, in a shiur on tefillat haderech, similarly expressed grave
reservations about the recitation of tefillat haderech on
routine trips which do not involve any particular acute danger, and
indicated that his personal practice is not to say tefillat haderech (at
least with a bracha) on said routine trips. OTOH, he was apparently very
reluctant to issue a definitive psak that others should do the same, in the
face of common established practice.

Saul Mashbaum
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On 04/16/2015 03:12 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
>
> BTW, I found a reference to the case in the SA at
> <http://www.kosherswitch.com/liv/tech/the-analogy>. To quote:
>
>      An alternative Talmudic analogy:
>
>       * There is a candle burning next to a closed window, and a strong
>         wind blowing outside.  Certainly, opening the window on Shabbat is
>         forbidden, since the candle will be extinguished immediately.
>
>       * There is a device that can determine if there's no wind currently
>         blowing, and it can predict with 100% accuracy that no wind will be
>         blowing for at least the next ~5 seconds.  It lights up with a
>         green light when it has determined this to be true.
>
>       * On Shabbat, a person opens/closes the window while the device's
>         indicator is green, knowing that a wind will ultimately blow and
>         succeed in extinguishing the candle.
>
>       * More accurately:  A person opens/closes the window before the wind
>         is created, before the candle is placed by the window, at a time
>         when the device's indicator is green, knowing that sometimes gusts
>         of wind hit the candle [its future location] and sometimes they
>         miss, and even when they do strike the candle, sometimes they're
>         able to extinguish it, but other times they do not... Welcome to
>         KosherSwitch (R).

Yes, and it seems from the SA that this would be permitted.   The big
difference, though, is that in the SA's case there is no intention to
extinguish the flame, and here there is.

-- 
Zev Sero               I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you
z...@sero.name          intend to commit felony...if a robber meets me in
                        the street and commands me to surrender my purse,
                        I have a right to kill him without asking questions
                                               -- John Adams

On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 03:43:24PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
:> BTW, I found a reference to the case in the SA at
:> <http://www.kosherswitch.com/liv/tech/the-analogy>. To quote:
...
:>       * More accurately:  A person opens/closes the window before the wind
:>         is created, before the candle is placed by the window, at a time
:>         when the device's indicator is green, knowing that sometimes gusts
:>         of wind hit the candle [its future location] and sometimes they
:>         miss, and even when they do strike the candle, sometimes they're
:>         able to extinguish it, but other times they do not... Welcome to
:>         KosherSwitch (R).

: Yes, and it seems from the SA that this would be permitted.   The big
: difference, though, is that in the SA's case there is no intention to
: extinguish the flame, and here there is.

Getting back to the post that started this tangent, the question was
whether this last bullet item actualy is relevant.

What's relevant is the probability of the wind eventually blowing the
candle out or the switch turning the light off. If it's a rov or maybe
a rube deruba, then it's gerama. At least, that's what was consensus
decades ago when Machon Zomet first produced their switch technology
and wheelchair.

Whether you can break down the likelihood of the melakhah occuring into
a union of the probability of a number of sub-steps or not doesn't seem
to me to impact the question. Because this isn't a safeiq situation,
it's whether your action can be blamed for the melakhah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 12th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 5 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Hod sheb'Gevurah: What aspect of judgment
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  forces the "judge" into submission?

On 04/16/2015 03:53 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 03:43:24PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> :> BTW, I found a reference to the case in the SA at
> :> <http://www.kosherswitch.com/liv/tech/the-analogy>. To quote:
> ...
> :>       * More accurately:  A person opens/closes the window before the wind
> :>         is created, before the candle is placed by the window, at a time
> :>         when the device's indicator is green, knowing that sometimes gusts
> :>         of wind hit the candle [its future location] and sometimes they
> :>         miss, and even when they do strike the candle, sometimes they're
> :>         able to extinguish it, but other times they do not... Welcome to
> :>         KosherSwitch (R).
>
> : Yes, and it seems from the SA that this would be permitted.   The big
> : difference, though, is that in the SA's case there is no intention to
> : extinguish the flame, and here there is.
>
> Getting back to the post that started this tangent, the question was
> whether this last bullet item actualy is relevant.


According to the SA even the penultimate bullet item is permitted:
>>      * On Shabbat, a person opens/closes the window while the device's
>>         indicator is green, knowing that a wind will ultimately blow and
>>         succeed in extinguishing the candle
Surely the last bullet item makes the heter much stronger.  But again,  the case
discussed is where this is not one's  intention.

Note also, in the mashal, that not only is there no wind right now, there is
no candle right now either.



> What's relevant is the probability of the wind eventually blowing the
> candle out or the switch turning the light off. If it's a rov or maybe
> a rube deruba, then it's gerama.

That doesn't seem to be what the SA says.  But again, with the caveat that
intention might make a difference.


> Whether you can break down the likelihood of the melakhah occuring into
> a union of the probability of a number of sub-steps or not doesn't seem
> to me to impact the question. Because this isn't a safeiq situation,
> it's whether your action can be blamed for the melakhah.

It's putting further causal distance between "cause" and "effect".
What if you had a series of these routines, each of which may or may not
call the next one, until the last one which may or may not do something?


-- 
Zev Sero               I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you
z...@sero.name          intend to commit felony...if a robber meets me in
                        the street and commands me to surrender my purse,
                        I have a right to kill him without asking questions
                                               -- John Adams

On Apr 15, 2015 6:01 AM, "Micha Berger via Avodah" <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 05:07:57AM -0400, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> : Rabbi Oelbaum has asked that his son's comment on YeshivaWorld
> : regarding Rav Oelbaum's position on kosher switch be publicized.
> ...
> :> Moshe Oelbaum
> :> Son of Rabbi N I Oelbaum

> Authentication?

Um, the fact that R' Oelbaum says the same thing on the KosherSwitch video
(<https://youtu.be/Aneast2yakU>)?

What I find very disturbing is that this information is in the public
arena. Why are people commenting or conjecturing without looking at the
companies materials?

On Apr 16, 2015 2:46 PM, "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> PS: On the relevance of random delay to gerama...

> AhS OC 514:11 (still catching up to the yomi schedule after Pesach) quotes
> the Rama (se'if 3) who in turn cites the Maharil that it's permissable
> to put a candle in a windy place on Yom Tov that it should be blown out,
> as long as the wind isn't blowing at the time you're taking it outside.
> The AhS explains, "For doing so before the wind comes -- that is
> *geram* kibui".

> A case of gerama with a random time delay. But this is Yom Tov, where
> the laws against extinguishing are looser. The AhS refers you to OC
> 277:7, where we see that on Shabbos it's assur -- but because of a
> special gezeira to prevent people from doing the same when the wind *is*
> blowing. Not because of gerama.

Take a look at R' Schapiro's teshuva (available on the KosherSwitch
website) as well as listen to the shuir they link to (26 min.).

KT,
MSS


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