Volume 33: Number 55
Mon, 06 Apr 2015
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Micha Berger
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 14:41:43 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] rabbits
On Fri, Apr 03, 2015 at 02:06:33PM +0300, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
:> There is a fundamental reason why pictures of people were avoided.
:
: Yet many of the medieval haggadot had pictures of people..
The reason is still there.
We don't all agree on halakhah and minhag, why would two people
necessarily agree during the medieval period?
:-)|,|ii!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger The true measure of a man
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Message: 2
From: Eli Turkel
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 09:57:26 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] kitniyot
see
http://ohr.edu/5390
and
http://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/5184
by Rabbi Spits
He discusses Quinoa
In the second article he discusses potatos both for kitniyot and bishul akum
As for modern products that didnt exist in the days of the gezera he notes
Shu"t Igros Moshe (O.C. vol. 3, 63). Others who accept peanuts for
Pesach include the Seridei Aish (Shu"t vol. 2, 37, 2; new print
vol. 1, 50 -- through a combination of factors), the Yeshuas Moshe
(Shu"t vol. 1, 35; he opines that the Kitniyos prohibition never
applied to legumes that are eaten raw, but concludes similar to Rav
Moshe, that if one has an existing minhag not to eat peanuts on Pesach
he still should not do so), and the Rivevos Efraim (Shu"t vol. 7,
257; only if it came still in its shell). [This logic is based on the
Shulchan HaRav's understanding (O.C. 453, 5) that the prohibition
of Kitniyos only applies when it gets wet). Other poskim who ruled
that way (as how can Kitniyos be more stringent than grain -- which
only can become chometz when wet) include the Chayei Adam (vol. 2,
128, 1) and Maharsham (Shu"t vol. 1, 183 and Daas Torah O.C. 453),
who cites that Rav Shlomo Kluger (Nidrei Zerizin, 8) held this
way as well. Those who were stringent include the Shoel U'Meishiv
(Mahadura Kama vol. 1, 175), the Avnei Nezer (O.C. 373 and 533),
the Maamar Mordechai (Shu"t 32), and the Sdei Chemed (Maareches
Chometz U'Matza 6, 1). This was also one of the points of contention
between Rav Kook and the Badatz Chasidim of Yerushalayim regarding
the permissibility of sesame oil for Pesach -- see footnote 13]. See
also Shu"t Atzei HaLevanon (vol. 1, 18) who also permits peanuts
for Pesach; yet based on his description it seems he is referring
to a pistachio (as per the Yeshuas Moshe ibid.).
[Email #2. Subject: kitniyot - summary]
After our discussion of kitniyot and the psak of RMF several personal
observations
1) We all agree that psak of RMF is controversial. IMHO it is "half"
accepted probably more in the US than in Israel
2) There is a separate machkoket about derivatives of kitniyot and
especially oils of kitniyot.
While there are relatively few ashkenazim who eat corn on the cob or
peanuts there are many who combine the 2 positions and use oild and
derivatives from "new: kitniyot.
Thus there are many rabbis that allow Canola oil (and certainly cottenseed
oil) using RMF and the debate over oils. Similarly it has been common in my
community to use lecithin (liftit) in candies etc. My rabbi allows this
together with most rabbis in my town based on major dati leumi rabbis.
R Elyashiv came out strongly against all of this and so in the charedi
community especially in Israel no kitniyot oils or lecithin is allowed and
only walnut or olive oil is used.
Bottom line in spite of the objections on this list that RMF is "wrong" in
many communities his teshuva is accepted when combined with the debate of
kitniyot derivatives.
chag kasher vesameach.
--
Eli Turkel
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Message: 3
From: Eli Turkel
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 14:15:20 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] kezayit
> 1- Is "kezayis" a constant volume, or is it pinned to the average olive,
> or perhaps the average among some subset of breeds of olive as breeding,
> care and climate change?
archaeology shows that the olive has not changed dramatically over the
millenia
> 2- If kezayis is a constant volume, do all the accepted overestimates
> performed and accumulated one atop the other unwind when we have more
> information about chazal's zeisim?
Not all communities accepted these various shitot. I can understand some
overestimates for being conservative but factors of 5-10 larger seem
overdone.
This is especially true if one stuffs the matza into ones mouth and
swallows together which becomes "achila gasa".
In general the problem with the huge shiurim is that it is very difficult
for many people.
><Such as asking (as I did in passing in #1) which subset of olives to
> average.
Which is the reason to be on the conservative side and use the largest size
olives which is still on the order of 17cc and not 50cc.
[Email #2]
> Or do we say that the bottom of the
> range of measurments that dominate common pratice in one's qehillah is
> binding as pesaq, and one can't just ignore the now huge safety margin?
Reminds of a story I read on the recent 20th yahrzeit of RSZA.
RSZA came up with 2 chumrot for the seder both related to the length
of maggid being a problem for kiddush bemkom seudah and the bracha over
the wine.
His mechutan R Elyashiv accepted the chumrot and rushed his maggid while
RSZA didnt accept his own chumrot in practice on the grounds that this
was not the minhag of Israel over the generations.
--
Eli Turkel
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Message: 4
From: Eli Turkel
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 13:57:43 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] Of Gebrokts and Kitniyos
> But let's not get buried under the reports of RMF and R' Tuvia Goldstein,
> and forget that we have conflict in reports about whether RSZA would
> allow someone to start eating gebrochts after hataras nedarim.
> So, while rumor might say he did, we have a first-hand report from R
> Yisrael Herczeg that tells us to ignore the grapevine >>
In Halichos Shlomo (p90) it states explicitly that one can change his
custom and eat gebrochs after hatart nedarim. However, this should be done
only if there is a good reason (tzorach chashuv) for the change. Thus, for
a chatan he would allow the hatarat nedarim if keeping bebrochs would cause
family difficulties.
RSZA paskened that the wife follows the customs of the husband both for
kula and chumra(without hatart nedarim). He explicitly states that this is
different than one who moves to another location where he does need hatarat
nedarim since a woman knows that she will eventually marry and might change
her minhag. The husband has the right to relinguish his rights. This is
prevalant with regard to the nuscah of davening.
A Baal Teshuva should prferably keep the customs of his "original"
community where the family belonged. However, if he is now connected to
some rabbi or community he can choose to keep their customs instead.
He also paskens (for EY) that one can cook kitniyot on the 7th day of
Pesach for use on the shabbat right afterwards (ef this year). This is
because some sefardi could come over for a visit and so the kitniyot are
not mukza . The same applies to gebrochs even though it is the 7th day of
Pesach.
RSZA himself ate gebrochs though he would not eat anything that fell on the
floor.
He did not use potato starch or anything that rsembled a chametz cake
On a different topic he allowed drinking regular water eg from the kinneret
since one can't taste at all the taste of any possible chametz,
[Email #2]
>> So, while rumor might say he did, we have a first-hand report from R
>> Yisrael Herczeg that tells us to ignore the grapevine.
> Perhaps he changed his mind! It has happened before.
In this case he didnt change his mind. He said that it depended on the
circumstances. In theory one could do hatarat nedarim and eat Gebrochs but
he advocated not using this heter unless there was a good reason to change
the custom. Obviously for Yisrael Herczeg he didn't feel there was
sufficient justification.
--
Eli Turkel
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Message: 5
From: Kenneth Miller
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 22:16:11 GMT
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Historic Practice Passover Offering
R' Yitzchok Levine posted:
> See the video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kgbRusmqjs
> ...
> As reported earlier, in preparation for the upcoming festival of
> Passover, this past Wednesday (5 Nisan - 25 March) the 'Priestly
> Training Academy' established by the Temple Institute held a
> Passover offering practice drill. This is a film that documents
> this event. This was the most accurate and authentic reenactment
> of this service to have taken place in nearly 2,000 years.
Two things in particular surprised me in this video:
1) The lambs were so small! Children carried them in!
2) At the very end, it shows and mentions that the korban pesach "is
roasted whole and in a special oven." Special oven? What was special about
it, and why an oven at all? I would think that the oven would (at least
partially) bake it, whereas it was supposed to be roasted by the fire, and
only by fire. I recall halachos of it being held by a pomegranate branch to
avoid heat conduction by metal, and rotated like a rotisserie to avoid it
being cooked even by its own juices. What's this oven about?
Akiva Miller
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Message: 6
From: Zev Sero
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2015 15:22:05 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Of Gebrokts and Kitniyos
On 04/03/2015 06:57 AM, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
> He also paskens (for EY) that one can cook kitniyot on the 7th day of
> Pesach for use on the shabbat right afterwards (ef this year).
Yes, I'm surprised that anyone disagrees. It seems so obviously correct.
I know that many people don't do so, and believe it to be forbidden, but
I have never yet heard an argument for why it should be so.
> This is because some sefardi could come over for a visit and so the kitniyot
> are not mukza .
The main issue would surely not be muktzeh, but cooking on yomtov.
But the answer is the same: the hypothetical horde of hungry guests
who might descend on one ten minutes before sunset on Friday, and
for whom one is, in principle, cooking, might very well be sefardim.
> The same applies to gebrochs even though it is the 7th day of
> Pesach.
Gebrochts, of course, applies in Chu"l as well (since almost everyone
who doesn't eat it on the first 7 days does eat it on the last day).
And lich'ora the above heter is not applicable. Kitniyos are gebrochts
are not similar. Ashkenazim don't avoid kitniyos because of a concern
that it might be chametz; they readily agree that there is no such concern,
and that for Sefardim it is heter gamur. Thus there is no reason at all
why an ashkenazi should not cook kitniyos for a sefardi, any more than
there is a reason why a zar who is tahor should not cook terumah for a kohen.
But those who avoid gebrochts do so because of an (admittedly remote) concern
that it might be chametz. If so, then they should be equally concerned not
to give it to someone else, even one who isn't worried about it, and thus
shouldn't be able to claim on Friday that they are cooking for hypothetical
guests who eat it.
Lepoel this question comes up every time there is such a kevius, and there
doesn't seem to be one psak about it. Perhaps it comes down to the different
reasons people give for why it's OK on the last day. If one holds that the
reason is "shelo lehotzi la'az" on those who eat gebrochts all Pesach, then
it makes sense that on the first 7 days one should also not be "motzi la'az",
and thus should be willing to cook gebrochts for those who eat it. Thus on
Friday the 7th one can claim to be cooking for such guests. But if one holds
that the reason for not eating gebrochts for 7 days and then eating it on the
8th is as a symbolic gesture towards the kabbalistic idea that on the 8th day
one ought to eat chametz, so for 7 days we treat gebrochts *as if* it were
chametz, and then eat it on the 8th day, then it would seem to follow that
on the 7th day one may not cook it.
--
Zev Sero I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you
z...@sero.name intend to commit felony...if a robber meets me in
the street and commands me to surrender my purse,
I have a right to kill him without asking questions
-- John Adams
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Message: 7
From: Kenneth Miller
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 21:17:19 GMT
Subject: Re: [Avodah] kezayit
R' David Wacholder posted:
> Every average person's swallow is a Kezayit, the amount which
> fulfils the Mitzvah and is the measure for the Bracha on Achilas
> Matza. As a Hidur and to erase all doubt, a second normal swallow
> would be good. That is for Motzi-Matzah, where the first olive-
> size swallowed fulfils a Torah obligation.
> ...
> This needs no authority to base it on. ...
WHY would it need no authority to base it on? If this were the halacha,
wouldn't someone have mentioned it? Why did so many authorities struggle
with the math and the biology and the physics if such a simple solution
were at hand?
> Air pockets and weight issue
>
> The swallow size may be according the the air pockets normally
> contained in Matzo, not ground, and according to volume not weight.
If a kezayis is a swallowfull, aren't the air pockets gone? Haven't they been lost in the chewing?
I concede that by the time the chewed matza gets to the throat, much of the
missing air has been replaced by saliva. Or perhaps the saliva even *more*
than accounts for the missing air. I am not knowledgeable enough about this
to venture a guess on the comparison of the volume of the matza before
chewing vis a vis at swallowing.
In any case, I've always been bothered by the problem of counting the air
bubbles. Mishneh Berurah 208:48 says that when eating cookies,
l'chatchilah, one must insure that he ate a kezayis of flour, WITHOUT
counting the sugar, in order to say Al Hamichya. MB concedes that the
minhag is to count all the ingrdients, but the Igros Moshe 1:71 says not to
rely on that minhag. So here's my question: If they would prefer us NOT to
count the other ingredients, which have substance, isn't it a simple kal
vachomer not to count AIR, she'ayn bo mamash?
Akiva Miller
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Message: 8
From: Prof. Levine
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2015 16:08:07 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Special Pesach Edition -- Instantaneous Redemption
[]
Instantaneous Redemption
HaShem took us out of Mitzrayim at the last minute before we slipped
to the fiftieth level of impurity. Had we fallen to that level, we
would have been irredeemable. In one moment, we went from darkness to
light, from death to life, from slavery to freedom, from anguish to
joy, and from impurity to holiness.
Lesson: Just as that moment brought instantaneous redemption, so too,
every moment of life has the potential to take us from darkness to
light, from death to life, from slavery to freedom, from anguish to
joy, and from impurity to holiness.
App: May we all be encouraged by the miracles of Pesach, that HaShem
again will instantaneously redeem us, and take us from darkness to
light, from death to life, from slavery to freedom, from anguish to
joy, and from impurity to holiness!
(Based on Ohr Yahol, Rav Yehoshuah Leib Chousman)
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Message: 9
From: Micha Berger
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2015 21:59:03 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Geirut
(Ccing most of the participants in our 2008 and 2010 conversations.)
You might be interested in
On Conversion to Judaism, by Rabbi Dr. Chaim E. Schertz
THE YU LAMDAN: The Wilf Campus Torah Journal
http://yulamdan.com/2015/03/29/on-conversion-to-judaism-by-
rabbi-dr-chaim-e-schertz
or http://j.mp/1CIV5GN
It starts slow, but R/Dr Schertz has a lot to say about Qabbalas Ol
Mitzvos (QOM, or KOM if you prefer) and its role in geirus. Aside
from other ideas that my be of interest, but it was QOM that has us
going.
:-)|,|ii!
-Micha
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Message: 10
From: Zev Sero
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2015 01:22:06 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Sim Sholom at a shiva house
Nusach Ashkenaz says Sim Sholom only after birchas cohanim (and in EY after
kriyas hatorah), and Sholom Rov at other times. Does this mean that at
a shiva house Sholom Rov is said even in shacharis (in EY on a non-Mon/Thu)?
--
Zev Sero I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you
z...@sero.name intend to commit felony...if a robber meets me in
the street and commands me to surrender my purse,
I have a right to kill him without asking questions
-- John Adams
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Message: 11
From: Zev Sero
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2015 01:28:24 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] "kesod siach sarfei kodesh"
Nusach Sefard, in the introduction to the normal kedusha, says "kenoam
siach sod sarfei kodesh" -- like the pleasantness of the speech of the
holy serafim's conclave. Nusach Ashkenaz, in the introduction to the
kedusha of musaf, has a similar phrase: "kesod siach sarfei kodesh".
But what does this mean? Every translation I have seen has rendered it
as if it said "kesiach sod sarfei kodesh", but that's not what it says!
Does anyone know, if "kesod siach" really means "kesiach sod", why they
are reversed? Or, if that's not what it really means, can anyone explain
what it does mean?
--
Zev Sero I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you
z...@sero.name intend to commit felony...if a robber meets me in
the street and commands me to surrender my purse,
I have a right to kill him without asking questions
-- John Adams
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Message: 12
From: Zev Sero
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2015 01:32:19 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Moroccan nigunim
Do we have any experts here on the history of the Moroccan nigunei hatefilah?
If so, can someone please explain when/how the Ashkenazi tune for Maoz Tzur
got into the Moroccan liturgy as a tune for Mah Ashiv Lashem?
--
Zev Sero I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you
z...@sero.name intend to commit felony...if a robber meets me in
the street and commands me to surrender my purse,
I have a right to kill him without asking questions
-- John Adams
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Message: 13
From: Eli Turkel
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 13:38:02 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] free will
We have discussed many times the opinion of Rav Dessler that a person
doesn't always have free will.
I recently saw a halachic discussion that may have some connection.
On ketubot 51 the gemara discusses a case of a married woman who was raped
but at the end was willing (techila be-ones ve-sofa be-ratzon). Shmuel's
father forbids her to her husband while Rava allows her.
One possibility of explaining Rava is that she is overwhelmed by her
"yetzer" and so is still considered "anus"
This is explicit in the words of R Zadok (tzidkat zaddik 43) that her
desire is so great that it is impossible to overcome it and so she is
considered anus gamur and so there is no punishment.
Targum Yonatan (Devarim 22:26) holds that she is not punished by death but
her husband must divorce her.
Maharshal (yevamot 6:3) paskens that she is permitted to her husband only
if she is "karka olam"
However the Noda Beyehuda disagrees (tenina EH 150) and says she is always
permitted to her husband because she is overwhelmed by her yetzer and so is
not considered that she did it with her free will.
--
Eli Turkel
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Message: 14
From: Kenneth Miller
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 12:13:44 GMT
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Sim Sholom at a shiva house
R' Zev Sero asked:
> Nusach Ashkenaz says Sim Sholom only after birchas cohanim (and in
> EY after kriyas hatorah), and Sholom Rov at other times. Does this
> mean that at a shiva house Sholom Rov is said even in shacharis
> (in EY on a non-Mon/Thu)?
No, but I don't know why.
I never thought of that question before, but here is a possibly-related
question that I've wondered for years: If Shir Hamaalos is said whenever we
skip Tachanun, should it always be said at the shiva house?
Akiva Miller
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Message: 15
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 14:25:21 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Sim Sholom at a shiva house
On Mon, Apr 06, 2015 at 01:22:06AM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: Nusach Ashkenaz says Sim Sholom only after birchas cohanim (and in EY after
: kriyas hatorah), and Sholom Rov at other times...
This rule isn't 100%. Otherwise Sim Shalom would never be said when
davening beyechidus.
I think it's more lke Ashk uses Sim Shalom in tefillos where Birkhas
Kohanim could be said, if we had opportunity.
:-)||ii!
-Micha
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Message: 16
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 14:28:07 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] "kesod siach sarfei kodesh"
On Mon, Apr 06, 2015 at 01:28:24AM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: Nusach Sefard, in the introduction to the normal kedusha, says "kenoam
: siach sod sarfei kodesh" -- like the pleasantness of the speech of the
: holy serafim's conclave...
Sod means conclave?
I thought it was referring to the ofanim and chayos haqodesh who learn
the secret of the siach of the sarfei qodesh, thereby are misna'asim
le'umas serafim...
:-)||ii!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 2nd day
mi...@aishdas.org in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Gevurah sheb'Chesed: What is constricted
Fax: (270) 514-1507 Chesed?
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