Avodah Mailing List

Volume 33: Number 51

Tue, 31 Mar 2015

• 1. Re: Of Gebrokts and Kitniyos (Yisrael Herczeg)
• 2. ashkenazi married to sefardi (Eli Turkel)
• 3. size of kezayit (Eli Turkel)
• 4. Halachically Speaking Conflicts With Kibud Av V?eim - (Prof. Levine)
• 5. Re: The Quinoa - Kitniyos Conundrum (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: size of kezayit (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: The Quinoa - Kitniyos Conundrum (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: size of kezayit (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: The Quinoa - Kitniyos Conundrum (Zev Sero)
• 10. Spouses with Conflicting Customs (Kenneth Miller)
• 11. Re: The Quinoa - Kitniyos Conundrum (Kenneth Miller)
• 12. Re: The Quinoa - Kitniyos Conundrum (Micha Berger)
• 13. kezayit (Eli Turkel)
• 14. Re: kezayit (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: Rav's Hagada - mt'chila (Saul Mashbaum)

>The Sefer Ashrei Haish quotes  Rav Elyashuv zt"l who says that one
>who has the Minhag of not eating Gebrokts may change his Minhag to
>eating Gebrokts.

>It is preferable to make Hatoros Nedarim but not necessary. One may
>rely on the Hataras Nedarim made on Erev Rosh Hashana.

I asked Rav Elyashiv z"l if I could be matir neder on gebrokts and he told
me I could not.

Yisrael Herczeg
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<<For Kitniyos one may not change , Hataras Nedarim won't help.

Even an Ashkenazia who marries a Sephardi (follows husbands Minhagim)
has to keep her original Chumra and should not eat Kitniyos.

The Chumra of Kitniyos is different than all other Chumros. Kitniyos
was a Kabala Gemura till the end of all generations. (Ashrei Ha'ish 3) >>

AFAIK this is a very minority opinion.
The more general opinion is

*Spouses with Conflicting Customs*

A question that arises frequently  these days, when marriages between
Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews are common, is what to do when one of the
spouses in a couple is from a family that refrains from eating kitniyot on
Pesach, while the other is from a family that permits kitniyot? Addressing
a similar matter, one of the great Rishonim, Rav Shimon ben Tzemach Doran
(Tashbetz 3:179), writes that they obviously cannot eat together  at the
same table while food permissible to one is forbidden to the other.
Therefore, the wife must adopt her husband?s customs, for ?a man?s wife is
like his own body? (Brachot 24a). Should  the husband die -if the wife has
a son from him, she must keep her husband?s custom; if not, she reverts to
the custom of her own family.

Rav Moshe Feinstein (Iggrot Moshe, Orach Chaim 1:158) adds that the wife?s
status is similar to that of a person who moves to a place where the
accepted custom is different from his own. If he intends to settle there,
he must nullify his previous customs and accept the customs of his new
location (based on Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh Deah 214:2). When a woman marries,
it is as if she is moving permanently into her husband?s house, and she
must therefore adopt his customs.

According to this, if an Ashkenazi woman marries a Sephardi man, she can
eat kitniyot during Pesach. She need not perform hatarat nedarim (releasing
her from her former custom) because she is acting in accordance with the
law that a woman adopts the customs of her husband. Nevertheless, some
Poskim recommend that she officially release herself from her past
abstention from kitniyot through  hatarat nedarim.


see

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/10142


In addition ROY states a similar psak in several places. AS RMF points out
the position of RSYE is difficult. Is he claiming that an ashkenazi that
permanently moves to a sefardi community and holds all their minhagim must
nevertheless refrain from eating kitniyot both himself and all descendants
forever?

I find it extremely difficult to believe that this ever occurred in practice

-- 
Eli Turkel
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It is normally brought that the size of kezayit is 27 gram (actually cc)
according to R Chaim Naeh and 33-50 g according to CI.  ROY recommends 30g.

In one place I saw that R Chaim Kanevsky said that at the seder of CI they
used a shiur of 17cc.
In a haggadah with the customs of the Steipler (I assumed based on CI) he
said that a piece of matzah the size of the palm of the hand with the
fingers is much more than a kezayit and for Korach the size of the palm of
the hand without the fingers.

All this is much less than the sizes normally associated with CI and even
RCN.
According to my hand the palm with fingers is about 6 inches x 4 inches
about half the size of the OU recommended shiur.

In any case we see a difference between what is written in books and what
the CI and Steipler (and assumedly R Chaim Kanevsky) did in practice

-- 
Eli Turkel
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 From http://tinyurl.com/nvhfu2x

The  mitzvah of kibud av v'eim frequently  conflicts with other 
mitzvos. For example, if  one wants to go to Eretz Yisroel and his 
parents  disagree, or if a parent disapproves of a child's choice
of a spouse, or tells him not to talk to someone for a specific 
reason. In addition, does one need to obey  a parent who demands that 
the child adopt a certain  chumra? These and other such issues will 
be dealt  with in this issue. It should be noted from the onset  that 
although  halachamay be somewhat lenient, one  has to use a lot 
of  seichel when dealing with the honor
of his parents.

Please see the above URL  for more.  YL

On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 06:33:00PM +0200, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
: > The IM (ibid, teshuvah 63), in his discussion which ends up permitting
: > peanuts, comes out on the side of qitniyos being a list of specific
: > items, that is not added to when other candidates arise.
: 
: Yes, but this seems to be his own chiddush; every earlier authority
: I've seen assumes the opposite. And his main proof is from mustard...

Actually, RMF's main proof is from peanuts. He permits primarily because
"everyone" ate peanuts back in his part of the Old Country. Mimeticism.
Which, thinking about it, ought to have comparatively more weight in
minhag than in halakhah. Just because of what minhag is.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 10:05:05PM +0200, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
: It is normally brought that the size of kezayit is 27 gram (actually cc)
: according to R Chaim Naeh and 33-50 g according to CI.  ROY recommends 30g.

ROY recommends 30g, in weight. Ashkenazim have gotten used to
approximating volume by measuring area and then assuming a very slim
matzah. Sepharadim use a weight based estimate. Since you can't know
the specific gravity (weight per volume) of a given batch of dough,
the Seph way of playing safe is to overestimate using water (1cc -> 1g).

: In one place I saw that R Chaim Kanevsky said that at the seder of CI they
: used a shiur of 17cc.

Did he save a piece and measure it? Or is this based on visual memory?

: In a haggadah with the customs of the Steipler (I assumed based on CI) he
: said that a piece of matzah the size of the palm of the hand with the
: fingers is much more than a kezayit and for Korach the size of the palm of
: the hand without the fingers.

But he (and possibly RCK's memories of his uncle's seder) may be
remembering thicker matzos. A matzah could be twice as thick as a typical
Shotzer or Lakewood handmade, and still be a cracker. We really can't
perceive the diffrences in the third dimension of a matzah too well, and
we could easliy be talking factor of two of more differences in volume.

A strike against mimeticism. IF (and I have no idea) matzos are still
getting thinner, remembering the area of matzah zeidi ate might not
give you an accurate volume.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Here is the test to find whether your mission
mi...@aishdas.org        on Earth is finished:
http://www.aishdas.org   if you're alive, it isn't.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Richard Bach

On 03/30/2015 06:37 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 06:33:00PM +0200, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
> : > The IM (ibid, teshuvah 63), in his discussion which ends up permitting
> : > peanuts, comes out on the side of qitniyos being a list of specific
> : > items, that is not added to when other candidates arise.
> :
> : Yes, but this seems to be his own chiddush; every earlier authority
> : I've seen assumes the opposite. And his main proof is from mustard...
>
> Actually, RMF's main proof is from peanuts.

It is not!  The teshuvah is *about* peanuts, so how could he use them as
a proof?   He uses mustard as proof that one can't apply any rules, because
under what rules would mustard be included?  It must therefore be that there
was a specific list of species that happened to include mustard, but could
not have included peanuts because they were unknown.   But the Taz explains
exactly how mustard got in -- because it obeys the rule.


> He permits primarily because
> "everyone" ate peanuts back in his part of the Old Country.

That's not the reason he gives.  He's justifying that custom, not citing
it as proof.


-- 
Zev Sero               I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you
z...@sero.name          intend to commit felony...if a robber meets me in
                        the street and commands me to surrender my purse,
                        I have a right to kill him without asking questions
                                               -- John Adams

On 03/30/2015 04:05 PM, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
> It is normally brought that the size of kezayit is 27 gram (actually cc) according to R Chaim Naeh and 33-50 g according to CI.  ROY recommends 30g.
>
> In one place I saw that R Chaim Kanevsky said that at the seder of CI they used a shiur of 17cc.

It depends for what.  There's a machlokes whether a kezayit is half a
kebeitza or a third.  Thus the halacha is that for de'oraisa we take
the stricter size and for de'rabanan we take the lenient one.  Therefore
for those who eat only one kezayit of matzah, it must be half a kebeitza,
for which the traditional measurement is about 27 cm^3; for maror, korech,
(and even for matza if one eats two kezeisim), one can use a third of a
kebeitza, which would come to about 18 cm^3.  And that includes some padding
for what remains between the teeth, so 17 cm^3 is also within the range.


-- 
Zev Sero               I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you
z...@sero.name          intend to commit felony...if a robber meets me in
                        the street and commands me to surrender my purse,
                        I have a right to kill him without asking questions
                                               -- John Adams

On 03/29/2015 12:33 PM, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
>> The IM (ibid, teshuvah 63), in his discussion which ends up permitting
>> peanuts, comes out on the side of qitniyos being a list of specific
>> items, that is not added to when other candidates arise.
>
> Yes, but this seems to be his own chiddush; every earlier authority
> I've seen assumes the opposite. And his main proof is from mustard,
> which actually seems to be the strongest proof against him, once one
> sees the Taz; since he doesn't even mention this, let alone offer any
> explanation for why it doesn't refute his position, I can only assume
> that it slipped his mind when he wrote the teshuva. >>
>
> I protest strongly against the assumption that RMF forgot a Taz that Zev knows.

So propose another explanation.  Try to reconcile the teshuva with the Taz.
If you can't then you must accept that the most likely explanation is that
RMF simply forgot it.


> Among other things the OU relies on this teshuva. I assume that means
> that their poskim also don't know about this Taz.

I am not responsible for what the OU poskim know or don't know, or what they
care about or don't.

   

> I also rfere to the Yavetz (Shelat Yavetz 2-147) who protests against
> those who wish to include potatos as kitniyot on the ground that we
> don't add to the gezera of kitniyot beyond what was originally included,

No, he doesn't.   Quite to the contrary, he acknowledges that many things
are added as time goes on.   The only objection he raised to the suggestion
to ban potatoes was that it's a impossible burden on the public.

-- 
Zev Sero               I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you
z...@sero.name          intend to commit felony...if a robber meets me in
                        the street and commands me to surrender my purse,
                        I have a right to kill him without asking questions
                                               -- John Adams

In the thread "ashkenazi married to sefardi", R' Eli Turkel posted from elsewhere:

> Rav Moshe Feinstein (Iggrot Moshe, Orach Chaim 1:158) adds that
> the wife?s status is similar to that of a person who moves to a
> place where the accepted custom is different from his own. If he
> intends to settle there, he must nullify his previous customs and
> accept the customs of his new location (based on Shulchan Aruch,
> Yoreh Deah 214:2). When a woman marries, it is as if she is moving
> permanently into her husband?s house, and she must therefore adopt
> his customs. 

I once heard an interesting argument against Rav Moshe's logic on this
point. He is viewing the wife as the one who is moving to a new location,
but we have an explicit pasuk that takes the opposite view: Bereshis 2:24 -
"Therefore, a man will desert his father and his mother, and stick to his
wife." (The woman may of may not leave her parents, but the man explicitly
does.)

Granted that there are other arguments for the wife taking the husband's
minhagim - terumah is the first that comes to my mind. But if Rav Moshe's
main argument is Minhag Hamakom, I wonder how he would have defended it
against this pasuk.

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
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R' Micha Berger wrote:
> Actually, RMF's main proof is from peanuts. He permits primarily
> because "everyone" ate peanuts back in his part of the Old Country.
> Mimeticism. Which, thinking about it, ought to have comparatively
> more weight in minhag than in halakhah. Just because of what minhag
> is.

Just this evening, I saw another teshuva from RMF where his foundation was
that "everyone" does it, and this was for a halacha. It is in Igros Moshe
(vol. 8) O"C 5:20:30. The main part of the teshuva is that when Yom Tov is
Motzaei Shabbos (as will be in chu"l in a few days), everyone puts two
candles together for Yaknehaz, and no one worries about the dripping wax.
Towards the end, he talks about lighting Shabbos candles on Yom Tov
afternoon (which we'll all do next week) even though there is so much
electric light that there is really no need for the candles at all - which
ought to constitute a melecha dones on YT needlessly - yet everyone does
it.

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
Want to place your ad here?
Advertise on United Online
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/551a06009526d6006b40st02vuc

On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 07:52:05PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: >Yes, but this seems to be his own chiddush; every earlier authority
: >I've seen assumes the opposite. And his main proof is from mustard,
: >which actually seems to be the strongest proof against him, once one
: >sees the Taz; since he doesn't even mention this, let alone offer any
: >explanation for why it doesn't refute his position...

RET replied:
:> I protest strongly against the assumption that RMF forgot a Taz that
:> Zev knows.

And in our post, RZS replied in turn:
: So propose another explanation.  Try to reconcile the teshuva with the Taz.
...

Why does Rav Moshe have to reconcile with the Taz?

IM doesn't read anything like Yabia' Omer or Yechaveh Da'as, where
every shitah is discussed. Does RMF routinely address every acharon,
even the "big names" that he chooses not to hold like? If his style
of teshuvah is to build his case, and to only refute contrary positions
when the refutation helps explain his point by contrast, one has a far
more plausible answer than the absurd claim that RMF didn't know or
forgot a Taz, and despite that, didn't even check the page of the SA
before writing.

As is clear from RMF's invoking the old country he concluded that we,
or at least his Litvisher "we", don't hold like the Taz. He uses
accepted pratice as a machria between shitos.

RAM already happened across another example of RMF doing so.

And this kind of "puq chazi, it must be we hold like ..." is something
AhS does often enough for R/Dr Haym Soloveitchik to famously (in some
circles) note tha AhS's more mimetic bent than the MB.

Which R' Seth Mandel attributed to the idea in the haqadaham to the MB
that it was to be a survey of later shitos, and not a seifer pesaq; that
his "pesaqim" were intended as clean room theory, not lemaaseh. RSM
brought as a raayah the numerous times the CC personally did not
practice like the MB, and instead followed more accepted pesaqim
(for his venue).

So according to RSM's argument, the CC too valued the role of puq chazi
plays in deciding which shitah we hold like.

Which brings us to the annual pre-Pesach thread on shiurim, and the famous
story of the bachur who didn't want to make havdahah for R' Zaks z"l usng
the kos she set out for him. According to the bachur, it wasn't large
enough, it didn't hold a revi'is. She replied: But it was my father's kos!

That kos (or another inherited from the CC) holds 100cc or so, either
3.5oz or closer to the 3 oz line than 4 oz, to the precision of kitchen
measuring equipment.

R' Hillel Zaks also described his grandfather's kos as being R' Chaim
Naeh's shitah, not the CI's.

In contrast, the MB 271 s"q 68 and Bei'ur Halakhah say one should be
drinking three kebeitzos for Fri night qiddush, since it's deOraisa
one should be machmir like the Tzelakh. Which would be more like 150cc,
more like the CI. The SSK (vol II, pg 47, fn 9) has 86ml / kebeitzah,
leading to the MB holding more like 137 ml.

Still, noticably more than his own practice.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man is a drop of intellect drowning in a sea
mi...@aishdas.org        of instincts.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

<<A strike against mimeticism. IF (and I have no idea) matzos are still
getting thinner, remembering the area of matzah zeidi ate might not
give you an accurate volume.>>

This means that the chart distributed by the OU is meaningless for those of
us who eat hand matza.
In addition every year one should open the box of matzot before seder  he
will use for the seder and
crumble the matza to see how much is needed for whatever shiur one uses.

The CI is claimed to have said that the palm plus fingers were equal to a
kezayit with room to spare (be-revach). Hopefully that accounts for changes
in the thickness once we have thin matzot.

In any case my main point was that the amount of matzoh eaten by CI was
less than shiur CI.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 04:32:14PM +0200, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
:> <<A strike against mimeticism. IF (and I have no idea) matzos are still
:> getting thinner, remembering the area of matzah zeidi ate might not
:> give you an accurate volume.>>
: 
: This means that the chart distributed by the OU is meaningless for those of
: us who eat hand matza.

Not meaningless, just overly conservative for people who are buying
thicker matzos. The OU is measuring using the current surbey of hand
matzah bakeries and staying a safe but sane margin of safety away.

: In addition every year one should open the box of matzot before seder  he
: will use for the seder and
: crumble the matza to see how much is needed for whatever shiur one uses.

I think the specific weight of 1/2 that of water is a safe assumption
for Ashkenazim while still not being the huge margin of the Seph minhag /
hanhagah of 1.

: The CI is claimed to have said that the palm plus fingers were equal to a
: kezayit with room to spare (be-revach). Hopefully that accounts for changes
: in the thickness once we have thin matzot.

Your fingers or mine? I have pretty short fingers, even to scale for
my 5'3" height!

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Between stimulus & response, there is a space.
mi...@aishdas.org        In that space is our power to choose our
http://www.aishdas.org   response. In our response lies our growth
Fax: (270) 514-1507      and our freedom. - Victor Frankl, (MSfM)

RDavid Wachtholder notes that the brief quotation from Sefer Yehoshua in
the Haggadah ends before citing the text in that chapter which relates to
the Exodus from Egypt.

This has been noted by R Menachem Leibtag in his very highly recommended
shiur "Understanding Maggid " at http://www.tanach.org/pesach.htm". He
writes

>>>>
Hence, the proof for the entire statement of 'mi-tchila...' is found in the
*continuation* of Yehoshua chapter 24 (emphasis mine, SM).  Most probably,
when this section was first composed, the Haggada assumed that its readers
were well versed in Tanach, and knew the continuation of that chapter.
>>>>

RMLeibtag makes a helpful suggestion:

>>>

Should you be looking for something novel to do at your Seder, you could
have the participants read from this section (ie, all of Chapter 24 of
Yehoshua, SM).  Note as well that Yehoshua 24:5-7 is an excellent (albeit
short) review of the story of Yetziat Mitzrayim.

.>>>>


Indeed, Talmudic literature is full of brief references to Bilblical text
in which the essential "proof text" is just beyond the words cited. You
have to either already know the Biblical context very well, or take the
trouble to look it up and examine it carefully, to really appreciate what
the darshan had to say. This is a very good example.


Chag kasher v'sameach.


Saul Mashbaum
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