Avodah Mailing List

Volume 33: Number 49

Fri, 27 Mar 2015

• 1. Re: The Quinoa - Kitniyos Conundrum (Zev Sero)
• 2. Re: amein to a recorded bracha (Eli Turkel)
• 3. The Quinoa - Kitniyos Conundrum (Eli Turkel)
• 4. naive kitniyos question (Sholom Simon)
• 5. Re: naive kitniyos question (Micha Berger)
• 6. Wearing Tzitzis outside (Kaganoff)
• 7. Re: am haaretz (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: naive kitniyos question (Kenneth Miller)
• 9. Re: The Quinoa - Kitniyos Conundrum (Simon Montagu)
• 10. Re: naive kitniyos question (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: am haaretz (Kenneth Miller)
• 12. Re: Wearing Tzitzis outside (Rich, Joel)
• 13. Re: am haaretz (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: Wearing Tzitzis outside (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: Of Gebrokts And Kitniyos (Micha Berger)

On 03/26/2015 06:08 AM, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
> Perhaps Rav Moshe didn't consider all of kitniyos with one broad
> brush, but had multiple definitions. For example, perhaps grains and
> legumes are inherently different types of kitniyos in his eyes. If
> so, then it could be that all grains are kitniyos (including rice and
> corn), but only specific other vegetables (including lentils and
> peas) were added to that list (but not peanuts or potatoes).

Or he simply wasn't aware that corn didn't exist in Europe when the
gezera was made.


On 03/26/2015 05:40 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
> The CA (Nishmas Adam, Hil' Pesach pereq 4, devar halakhah 20) simply
> includes potatoes as qitniyos.

Once again, no, he doesn't. And since you've localised your claim,
I can be certain that it's not true.

> The IM (ibid, teshuvah 63), in his discussion which ends up permitting
> peanuts, comes out on the side of qitniyos being a list of specific
> items, that is not added to when other candidates arise.

Yes, but this seems to be his own chiddush; every earlier authority
I've seen assumes the opposite. And his main proof is from mustard,
which actually seems to be the strongest proof against him, once one
sees the Taz; since he doesn't even mention this, let alone offer any
explanation for why it doesn't refute his position, I can only assume
that it slipped his mind when he wrote the teshuva.

-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

<<RSZA (Halihos Shelomo, Tefillah 22:15) says one may not answer amein
to a recording, since one isn't hearing a berakhah altogether. The
sounds coming out of a speaker or headphones can serve like the flags
in Alexandria to know a berakhah was said, but it's just machine noise,
not itself a berakhah. >>

My understanding is that according RSZA one would not be yotzeh megilla
even live over a phone.
This is consistent with his psak that one is not yotzeh shofar using a
hearing aid.
However RMF disagrees (actually RSZA disagreed with the psak of RMF). He
paskins that
a hearing aid is a normal way of hearing in modern times and so is
acceptable.

In addition ROY has paskened that hearing the megilla over the radio is
acceptable (bidived)
as long as it is a live broadcast. I would have to see if he discusses the
question of the amen.
However, it woul seem to me that if the broadcast is good enough to be
yotzeh then it should
surely not be a amen yesomah.

BTW a major difference between these shitot is listening over the phone to
someone making havdala.
A frequent occurrence is an elderly lady living by herself who doesnt want
(or not capable) of making havdala.
Can someone make havdala for her over the phone?
I would assume that RSZA certainly does not allow it. I don't know about
the other poskim.

On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 4:02 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 12:03:28PM +0200, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
> : The psak that I am familar with is that one is "yotzeh" a bracha if one
> : hears it live.
>
> This is the halakhah as I knew it as well.
>
> But there could have been a gap between the criteria for being yotzei
> by hearing someone else's berakhah and the criteria for avoiding an
> amein yesomah. Situations where you may answer amein for the sake of
> answering amein.
>
> My hava amina was that perhaps amein yesomah is about not affirming the
> sentiment at the first opportunity. Which would have more to do with
> the timing of the amein with hearing the berakhah, rather than when it
> was said.
>
> For this reason, Rn Chana Luntz's post that RAM pointed to doesn't
> discuss my question. But, she wrote in response to RYL pointing to
> <http://revach.net/article.php?id=2181>, which does.
>
> RSZA (Halihos Shelomo, Tefillah 22:15) says one may not answer amein
> to a recording, since one isn't hearing a berakhah altogether. The
> sounds coming out of a speaker or headphones can serve like the flags
> in Alexandria to know a berakhah was said, but it's just machine noise,
> not itself a berakhah.
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>
> --
> Micha Berger             You will never "find" time for anything.
> mi...@aishdas.org        If you want time, you must make it.
> http://www.aishdas.org                     - Charles Buxton
> Fax: (270) 514-1507
>



-- 
Eli Turkel
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<<It seems that there truly is no clear-cut conclusion to this
contemporary kashrus controversy. Can one eat it on Pesach? One must
ask his local halachic authority for guidance to clear up any quinoa
/ Kitniyos kashrus confusion or questions. But all concerns being
equal, in this author's mind one thing is certain regarding a holiday
that is all about Mesorah and tradition: quinoa was not served at
Bubby's Seder!>>

The OU has changed there opinion and now hold that Quinoa is not kitniyot
which was obvious to most of us all the time.

In my case my parents only used horseradish for maror while I use Romaine
lettuce.
I eat many more foods that were not available to my parents or grandparents.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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Re kitniyos: isn't the issur one of "cooking" with kitniyos? If so,
what's wrong with eating a raw cob of corn (which I have done on a
camping trip, and it's not bad at all). All the more so since we can eat
raw wheat (if I understand that correctly). Are we more machmir on
kintiyos than we are the five grains? 

-- Sholom 
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On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 12:34:15PM -0400, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote:
: Re kitniyos: isn't the issur one of "cooking" with kitniyos? ...
:                                         All the more so since we can eat
: raw wheat (if I understand that correctly). Are we more machmir on
: kintiyos than we are the five grains? 

Peas are prohibited even if not in contact with water. I think it helps
to change the parallel you're assuming: The minhag is to treat qitniyos
like a form of chameitz, not like grain.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

Micha Berger wrote,* agav urcha*:
: (Today, neither the wearer nor the observer would associate wearing
: one's tzitzis out as conceit. Rather, it's become social norm.)

I would disagree. In some communities it is yuhara and in others it is not.
It all depends on the specifics of that community and school/shul/ etc.

Yonatan Kaganoff
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On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 12:24:16AM +0000, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
: 1) We tend to see a spectrum of observance, with myriad hues and tints
: along the way. Back then, it appears the halacha was much more binary:
: you're either a chaver or an am haaretz, and there was no gray at all.

There was a ritual of formal qabalas divrei chaveirus.

Sources at http://daat.ac.il/encyclopedia/value.asp?id1=2907

: 2) Not only that, but it seems that one's identity was common
: knowledge. If I'm wrong, please point me to the sources. But if a chaver
: went out of town, how did he prove his status? If I own a fruitstand,
: how do I insure that the am haaretz customers don't tamei up my produce?

Yeah, I have no idea how chaveirim could know whether or not to trust
an immigrant from Lud. Or any of the other logistics.

But divrei chaveirus along with dinim like dema certainly sound like
precedent for Austritt, for making efforts to keep the communities
separate.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             There's only one corner of the universe
mi...@aishdas.org        you can be certain of improving,
http://www.aishdas.org   and that's your own self.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                 - Aldous Huxley

R' Micha Berger wrote:

> Peas are prohibited even if not in contact with water. I
> think it helps to change the parallel you're assuming: The
> minhag is to treat qitniyos like a form of chameitz, not
> like grain.

In which case, we *are* more machmir on peas than on wheat, exactly as RSS suggested.

Is it really true that no halacha or minhag forbids eating raw wheat? Even
if saliva is not machmitz, is there really no fear about water getting on
the wheat in the course of the meal?

Akiva Miller

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On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 8:44 PM, Prof. Levine via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:

>  From http://ohr.edu/5390
>


>
> But all concerns being equal, in this author?s mind one thing is certain
> regarding a holiday that is all about Mesorah and tradition: quinoa was not
> served at Bubby?s Seder!
>

I don't know who Bubby is, but this last sentence is just muddying the
waters: the question wasn't whether to serve quinoa at Seder, but whether
to eat it during Pesah. And anyway, I thought this holiday was all about
freedom and liberation.
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On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 07:40:25PM +0000, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
: R' Micha Berger wrote:
:> Peas are prohibited even if not in contact with water. I
:> think it helps to change the parallel you're assuming: The
:> minhag is to treat qitniyos like a form of chameitz, not
:> like grain.
: 
: In which case, we *are* more machmir on peas than on wheat, exactly
: as RSS suggested.

But I was suggesting that's the wrong way to think about it. The minhag
wasn't set up to make qitniyos worse than grain; it was set up to make
it a minor form of chameitz. The comparison of bean to grain will only
confuse.

It would give weight to the theories that the minhag began because of
possible contact (during storage or milling) with grain that wasn't
necessarily kept dry.

(Possible, not probable. It's a minhag, not a real safeiq that would lead
to real issurim.)

If it were about confusing the flours or porriges, then raw or dry roasted
qitniyos, or those baked or cooked within 18 min wouldn't be a problem. And
RSSimon's original question would stand.

: Is it really true that no halacha or minhag forbids eating raw
: wheat? Even if saliva is not machmitz, is there really no fear about
: water getting on the wheat in the course of the meal?

I assume there are such minhagim, but in terms if halakhah... Human saliva
(and only human saliva -- Tosefta Makhshirin p' 5, cited in AhS 453:10)
is indeed is not a machmitz.

The thing is, people tended to eat their wheat roatsted, not raw. Roasting
breaks down some of the starch into sugars, making it one of the foods
offered children to keep them alert for the seder. But roasted wheat
isn't machmetzes, so it doesn't answe your question.

In any case, back to qitniyos, I could/should have made the constrast
between roasted peas and roasted wheat, to show why it's better to
compare qitniyos to chameitz than to grains.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Strength does not come from winning. Your
mi...@aishdas.org        struggles develop your strength When you go
http://www.aishdas.org   through hardship and decide not to surrender,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      that is strength.        - Arnold Schwarzenegger

R' Micha Berger wrote:

> There was a ritual of formal qabalas divrei chaveirus.
> Sources at http://daat.ac.il/encyclopedia/value.asp?id1=2907

Thank you! That article was very enlightening. A very formal procedure, very different from the self-identification we use today.

I was particularly surprised by the last paragraph, which pointed out that
if a chaver is accused of a punishable sin, he can be convicted without
hasra'ah. Hasra'ah is only for the am haaretz, to insure that he is aware
of the prohibition; the chaver does not need to be told. Totally logical,
but not something that I'd have realized.

Akiva Miller
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Micha Berger wrote, agav urcha:
: (Today, neither the wearer nor the observer would associate wearing
: one's tzitzis out as conceit. Rather, it's become social norm.)

I would disagree. In some communities it is yuhara and in others it is not. It all depends on the specifics of that community and school/shul/ etc.

Yonatan Kaganoff
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Which raises the question how does one define ?community? for purposes of
Yuhara? (e.g. my Yeshiva has lots of guys who put on tfillin at mincha, now
I go on vacation and am at a minyan where it is not done ?perhaps back to
my question is it a function of me, the onlookers or both)

KT
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On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 04:12:38AM +0000, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
: R' Micha Berger wrote:
:> Sources at http://daat.ac.il/encyclopedia/value.asp?id1=2907

: I was particularly surprised by the last paragraph, which pointed out
: that if a chaver is accused of a punishable sin, he can be convicted
: without hasra'ah. Hasra'ah is only for the am haaretz...

The Maharatz Chayas says there are two sources for requiring hasta'ah:

1- Logic: We cannot punish someone for doing something beshogeig. With
hasra'ah immediately before the cheit, we can rule out shogeig.

On this, R' Yosi says that a sonei is killed without hasra'ah, because
he is like a mo'eid umusra. And R Yosi bar Yehudah says that a chaveir
doesn't need hasra'ah, because we can assume he knew already. (Makos 6b)

2- Gezeiras hakasuv, given by the same R' Yosi in the mishnah at the top
of the amud. Which would explain why the hasra'ah have to be
from one of the eidim. Why would hasra'ah from a pasul le'eidus (eg
his brother) and witnessed by 2 eidim not be enough to rule out
beshogeig?

Rava (Makos 6b) in contrast says that hasra'ah can even be the chotei
saying it himself, or hearing it from a sheid.

The Rambam (Sanhedrin 12:2) holds that a talmid chakham does require
hasra'ah before punishment, no less than an am ha'aretz. And yet his
explanation their for hasra'ah is the gemara's "to distinguish between
shogeig and meizid". He doesn't quote the pasuq, which would imply he
holds the gemara concludes sevara (#1) to the exclusion of gezeiras
hakasuv (#2).

The Kesef and Lechem Mishnah say that the Rambam understands the gemara
as concluding that the source is the need to rule out shogegim, but the
chakhamim argue with R' Yosi ben Yehudah about needing a reminder. A
chakham might know it's assur, but forgotten about the issur at the time.

I think divrei chaveirus is extra-halachic, since the chakhamim
(yachid verabim) require giving a talmid chakhahm hasra'ah if he is
to be punishable, whether because of gezeiras hakasuv and/or the need
for reminding.

So li nir'eh that a chaver formally waves that requirement, allowing
BD to use its powers to mete out punishments that aren't halachically
obligatory. Not that being a chaver changes one's halachic state in
ways other than being a talmid chakham.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The thought of happiness that comes from outside
mi...@aishdas.org        the person, brings him sadness. But realizing
http://www.aishdas.org   the value of one's will and the freedom brought
Fax: (270) 514-1507      by uplifting its, brings great joy. - R' Kook

On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 02:10:58PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: Which raises the question how does one define "community" for purposes
: of Yuhara? ...

Yuharah is one or both of two things: either an expression of a person's
holier-than-thou attitude or that it be seen by a significant number of
observers as expressing that attitude.

So we really aren't so much talking about "community" as much as the
person knowing
1- who he is comparing himself to well enough to determine his own
   motives, and
2- who will likely see him with those tzitzis out and how they tend to
   judge that.

Personally, I think someone living in a neighborhood where tzitzis are
normally worn in who wears them out will be pegged as "one of them",
rather than seen as being pretencious.

There is also an inverse yuhara... Someone who fights all the incoming
new "shtik" that weren't accepted practices back in their childhood have
to make sure their own motives aren't "I am in the know, not like those
benighted sheep following all the latest pointless practices".

Self awareness is a critical part of being a good Jew on either side of
the fence.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             How wonderful it is that
mi...@aishdas.org        nobody need wait a single moment
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Fax: (270) 514-1507              - Anne Frank Hy"d

On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 12:34:03PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
: Reb Elyashuv holds  the original Chumra of Gebrokts  started when
: Matzohs were thick.

We discuss this annually. As well as the overlapping topic of when
Ashkenazi (and many Seph) matzos got thin enough for the top and bottom
crusts to meet -- ie crispy and cracker-like.

RYSE is following an opinion that in the past was found in Shaarei
Teshuvah 460. RMRabi writes "In the standard print of the MBerurah,
page 118 line begins, SheKorin Chremzelen."

And the Baal haTanya (shu"t #6 in the back of vol 6 of SA haRav) says
that gebrokhts started being an issue when we started counted kneading
time toward the 18 min. Which in turn what started the thinning of
Ashkenazi matzos (to reduce baking time); so effectively, opposite
positions.


: Even an Ashkenazia who marries a Sephardi (follows husbands
: Minhagim) has to keep her original Chumra and should not eat
: Kitniyos.

My daughter was told otherwise by both our LOR and her new husband's,
and both rabbis are personally Ashkenazi. (Even though her new surname
is Ladino.)

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
mi...@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter


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