Volume 33: Number 48
Thu, 26 Mar 2015
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 16:16:57 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] yuhara
On Thu, Mar 05, 2015 at 10:46:50PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: Is there a philosophical or practical halachic difference between the
: concepts of yuhara (halachic presumptuousness?) and mechzei k'yuhara
: (looks like halachic presumptuousness)? ...
It took me time to find a source for a nafqa mina. (This isn't just
another response that had to wait until sheva berakhos were over.)
Shu"t Divrei Yatziv (OC 174) allows someone to be machmir on himself
and not use an eiruv that everyone else uses only because no one has
to assume he otherwise would have had something to carry. He invokes
the idea that yunhara (not a separate "mechzei keyuhara") is about
how it looks to others.
On the flipside, it would lead to a chumerah to define yuhara this
way, as it would have yuhara include acts that I am not doing out
of an inflated opinion of myself, but would be seen this way.
Such as when the Mahari Bruna (shu"t 96) prohits wearing tzitzis
outside one's clothers.
(Today, neither the wearer nor the observer would associate wearing
one's tzitzis out as conceit. Rather, it's become social norm.)
This teshuvah of the Mahari Bruna has been invoked WRT women wearing
tefillin. See also the Rama, OC 17:2 who mentions mechzei keyuhara when
prohibiting their wearing a tallis.
As for primary sources, see R' Jonathan Ziring's list of mar'eh
meqomos at <http://yutorah.org/_materials/Yuhara-516596.pdf>
(I wish I had found this first, it would have saved me the time
spend finding the above sources.)
It appears (pun intended) both yuhara in motive and mechzei keyuhara
are considered lehalakhah to be valid reasons to ban an action.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger The greatest discovery of all time is that
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Message: 2
From: Arie Folger
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 14:43:31 +0100
Subject: [Avodah] A Kosher List from a Very Dark, Very Tragic Time
Rabbaussaj,
You might enjoy the following blog post of mine, and who knows, find some
Devar Torah material in it:
Any and every Jew, even a great number who don't usually have the good
fortune to keep kosher, are now scrambling to purchase an assembly of
mostly certified kosher-for-Passover products. But what do you do when this
abundance is not available where you live? And more importantly, what were
Jews of past generations to do, when food might be scarce, and their
movements constrained?
https://ariefolger.wordpress.com/2015/03/25/a-
historic-pessach-kosher-list-from-very-dark-times/
Pessach kasher vesameach,
--
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* Kann man die Religion des anderen korrekt wahrnehmen? ? Zur Woche der
Br?derlichkeit
* ???? ???? ????? ? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???
* Ist Pessach f?r die Vergangenheit oder die Zukunft?
* Frag den Rabbi ? Wie backte man Mazzot in der Bibel?
* Frag den Rabbi ? Seit wann und warum bedecken j?dische m?nner beim gebet
ihr haupt?
* A Critique of Liberal Orthodox Approach to Halacha
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Message: 3
From: Prof. Levine
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 14:44:46 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] The Quinoa - Kitniyos Conundrum
From http://ohr.edu/5390
Quinoa Questions
While not (yet) too common here in Israel, quinoa has developed an
international following. Packed with protein (essential amino acids)
and fiber, as well as magnesium, phosphorus, calcium and iron (and
naturally cholesterol free!), quinoa packs quite a dietary punch.
Although billed as the 'Mother of All Grains' and 'the Super Grain',
this native of the Andes Mountains (think Bolivia and Peru) is
actually a grain that isn't; it does not even contain gluten. It
turns out that quinoa is really a member of the 'goose-foot' family
(Chenopodium), related to beets and spinach. But while its health
benefits sound terrific, it may still be problematic on Pesach.
<Snip>
Quinoa Conclusion?
It seems that there truly is no clear-cut conclusion to this
contemporary kashrus controversy. Can one eat it on Pesach? One must
ask his local halachic authority for guidance to clear up any quinoa
/ Kitniyos kashrus confusion or questions. But all concerns being
equal, in this author's mind one thing is certain regarding a holiday
that is all about Mesorah and tradition: quinoa was not served at
Bubby's Seder!
See the above URL for more.
YL
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Message: 4
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 20:12:11 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] The Quinoa - Kitniyos Conundrum
On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 02:44:46PM -0400, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
: From http://ohr.edu/5390
...
:> / Kitniyos kashrus confusion or questions. But all concerns being
:> equal, in this author's mind one thing is certain regarding a
:> holiday that is all about Mesorah and tradition: quinoa was not
:> served at Bubby's Seder!
If Ashkenazim 250 years ago or so had this attitude, we'de still be
eating matzos too thick to be cracker-like.
Every new question has to be faced sometime.
Anyway... I think the line belittles the real questions:
1- Is the minhag of qitniyos about a fixed list of products, in which case
we ought to be eating corn and peanuts? For that matter, RMF reports that
in his part of Litta they did eat peanuts. (Corn and peanut oil are really
new additions, and corn syrup is arguably fine -- mei not-quite-qitniyos?)
Or is qitniyos about certain taxonomical groups of products, kinds of
products based on usage, or kind of taonomical groups? In which case
the existing minhag would cover new foods, and possibly quinoa.
Potatos would fit the usage criterion. The Chayei Adam says adding it
would be ein hatzibur yakhol laamod ba. The web page pointed to argues
it's because potato starch "flour" isn't as similar to flour as legume
(or quinoa) flour would.
2- How is quinoa stored? While KLP certified quinoa wouldn't be an
actual chameitz issue, R Belsky is worried that allowing quinoa would
lead people to buy even non certified, 100% pure all natural straight
from the field quinoa.
(Personally, I think the risk that people take the law into their own
hands would increase more the other way: If people learn that many
things the rabbis say are prohibited are really based on sociological
factors and aren't really assur, the second-guessing would increase.)
OTOH, it could be that "pften processed in the same mills as real
flour" is itself the definition of the qitniyos category!
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger None of us will leave this place alive.
mi...@aishdas.org All that is left to us is
http://www.aishdas.org to be as human as possible while we are here.
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Message: 5
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 20:14:20 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Ki Im Gala Sodo el Avadav Haneviim
On Sun, Mar 15, 2015 at 10:16:15AM -0400, H Lampel via Avodah wrote:
: Sanhedrin 89b, the same page that says that each navi related his
: prophesies in his own style, says,
:
: A tanna recited to Rav HIsda, "One who withholds his prophecy gets
: malkus." He said to him, "...Who warns him?! ...
: Abbaye said, "His fellow prophets [warned him]. [But
: still,] how did they know? Abbaye said, becuase it is written [Amos
: 3] "For Hashem will not do anything unless he reveals His sod
: (secret/counsel)." (I.e., the very posuk RGD referenced in his
: subject heading.)
:
: We see from here that other prophets, besides the one commanded to
: relate the prophecy, experienced the same prophecy...
While this is the most plausible read, it is possible that the gemara
means that Hashem reveals to other nevi'im that He gave one of their
peers council, not what the council was.
That does fit the seifa::
: But perhaps Hashem retracted [and told the prophet /not/ to deliver
: the prophecy]?
: If He had retracted, he would have made this known to /all/ the
: prophets [as well].
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger The waste of time is the most extravagant
mi...@aishdas.org of all expense.
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Message: 6
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 20:22:28 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Eating before davening
On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 03:18:58AM +0000, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
: ... This is not Taanis Bechorim. One can eat after Taanis Bechorim,
: but that's because the fast was broken, so continued abstinence is
: pointless. But that only applies to a taanis where there isn't any
: issur achila. But where there *is* an issur achila it doesn't help --
: and eating before praying is certainly an issur achila.
What does a taanis without an issur akhilah mean?
I know there is a difference between a taanis that once broken leheter
needn't be observed, and one may not be broken for a simchah. but I
need filling in on the lomdus you're assuming to explain it.
Also, could it be that the qevurah itself or some element of it (tziduq
hadin, qaddish) is sufficiently taking care of one's nefesh before
eating?
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger "And you shall love H' your G-d with your whole
mi...@aishdas.org heart, your entire soul, and all you own."
http://www.aishdas.org Love is not two who look at each other,
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Message: 7
From: Zev Sero
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 15:56:45 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] The Quinoa - Kitniyos Conundrum
> But all concerns being equal, in this author?s mind one thing is
> certain regarding a holiday that is all about Mesorah and tradition:
> quinoa was not served at Bubby?s Seder!
Nor were avocadoes; does that mean we should do without them?
For that matter, our great-grandparents' sedarim did not include lettuce,
or any of the other four kinds of maror; for lack of choice they had to
make do with horseradish root. Does that mean we should not use lettuce,
which everyone agrees is the mitzvah min hamuvchar?!
--
Zev Sero I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you
z...@sero.name intend to commit felony...if a robber meets me in
the street and commands me to surrender my purse,
I have a right to kill him without asking questions
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Message: 8
From: Kenneth Miller
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 01:42:06 GMT
Subject: Re: [Avodah] The Quinoa - Kitniyos Conundrum
R' Micha Berger wrote:
> corn syrup is arguably fine -- mei not-quite-qitniyos?)
I don't know how true or accurate it is, but I've heard the opposite: That
corn oil is not a liquid extracted from the corn, but is rather the corn
itself ground up so fine that it becomes a liquid, and is therefore not mei
kitniyos, but kitniyos gamur.
Akiva Miller
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Message: 9
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 23:01:02 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] The Quinoa - Kitniyos Conundrum
On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 01:42:06AM +0000, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
: R' Micha Berger wrote:
: > corn syrup is arguably fine -- mei not-quite-qitniyos?)
:
: I don't know how true or accurate it is, but I've heard the opposite:
: That corn oil is not a liquid extracted from the corn, but is rather the
: corn itself ground up so fine that it becomes a liquid, and is therefore
: not mei kitniyos, but kitniyos gamur.
I wrote of corn syrup, you responded with corn oil. Wikipedia provides
a very different story for the making of either.
It is true, though, that corn syrup isn't a liquid removed from the corn,
but the liquid is produced chemically, not by grinding. The reulting
syrup is chemically different than what came out of the corn.
But even if this reduction isn't enough to be called "mei", the product
is still not "qitniyos gamur" until we prove that the minhag -- or at
least the variant you inherited -- is broader than those things originally
banned. Maize was brought to the west well after. As I called it,
mei not-quite-qitniyos.
corn syrup:
Currently, corn syrup is obtained through a multi-step
bioprocess. First, the enzyme alpha-amylase is added to a mixture
of corn starch and water. alpha-amylase is secreted by various
species of the bacterium Bacillus; the enzyme is isolated from
the liquid in which the bacteria are grown. The enzyme breaks
down the starch into oligosaccharides, which are then broken into
glucose molecules by adding the enzyme glucoamylase, known also as
"gamma-amylase". Glucoamylase is secreted by various species of
the fungus Aspergillus; the enzyme is isolated from the liquid in
which the fungus is grown. The glucose can then be transformed into
fructose by passing the glucose through a column that is loaded with
the enzyme D-xylose isomerase, an enzyme that is isolated from the
growth medium of any of several bacteria.
corn oil:
Almost all corn oil is expeller pressed, then solvent extracted
using hexane or 2-methylpentane (isohexane). The solvent is
evaporated from the corn oil, recovered, and re-used. After
extraction, the corn oil is then refined by degumming and/or alkali
treatment, both of which remove phosphatides. Alkali treatment also
neutralizes free fatty acids and removes color (bleaching). Final
steps in refining include winterization (the removal of waxes),
and deodorization by steam distillation of the oil at 232-260 degC
(450-500 deg?F) under a high vacuum.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
mi...@aishdas.org your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org and it flies away.
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Message: 10
From: Zev Sero
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 22:55:23 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] The Quinoa - Kitniyos Conundrum
On 03/25/2015 08:12 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> Potatos would fit the usage criterion. The Chayei Adam says adding it
> would be ein hatzibur yakhol laamod ba.
No, he doesn't. Or at least if he does it's not anywhere that I could
find.
--
Zev Sero I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you
z...@sero.name intend to commit felony...if a robber meets me in
the street and commands me to surrender my purse,
I have a right to kill him without asking questions
-- John Adams
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Message: 11
From: Prof. Levine
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 04:56:39 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Big Tallis Roundup: Tallis Wearing During Drosho,
From http://tinyurl.com/qfs5qlt
... according to Minhag Ashkenaz, talleisim (tallis gadol) are not
only for davening with, and not only for daytime use. Rather they
also have the role of being recommended appropriate garb for communal
functionaries performing certain functions for the honor of the
congregation, during both daytime and nighttime hours.
See the above URL for more.
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Message: 12
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 05:40:42 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] The Quinoa - Kitniyos Conundrum
On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 10:55:23PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: On 03/25/2015 08:12 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
:> Potatos would fit the usage criterion. The Chayei Adam says adding it
:> would be ein hatzibur yakhol laamod ba.
: No, he doesn't. Or at least if he does it's not anywhere that I could
: find.
You're correct, or at least, I couldn't fint it once I bothered not
relying on memory.
The CA (Nishmas Adam, Hil' Pesach pereq 4, devar halakhah 20) simply
includes potatoes as qitniyos.
However, the idea is in the Igeros Moshe (OC 3:65).
The IM (ibid, teshuvah 63), in his discussion which ends up permitting
peanuts, comes out on the side of qitniyos being a list of specific
items, that is not added to when other candidates arise. Which reasserts
my question about people who use peanut oil, but not corn oil. Which
was the norm during my childhood, BTW. Peanut oil was the staple oil
during Pesach.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger I thank God for my handicaps, for, through them,
mi...@aishdas.org I have found myself, my work, and my God.
http://www.aishdas.org - Helen Keller
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Message: 13
From: Eli Turkel
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 11:47:05 +0200
Subject: [Avodah] atheism
<<I don't believe he said that. If you don't believe in G-d you can rape,
pillage and murder at will and there are no consequences, no Judgment Day?
Hitler, Stalin and Mao all get a pass?
Something must have gotten lost in translation. >>
Will try and ask on the shiur this friday. I assume he didn't mean "natural
law".
He meant that an atheist won't be punished for chillul shabbat or rewarded
for keeping a shabbat.
--
Eli Turkel
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Message: 14
From: Eli Turkel
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 11:59:08 +0200
Subject: [Avodah] Paradigm Changes in Halacha
I have a lengthy article in the Journal of Contemporrary Halacha in 1989
some highlights:
ROY indeed holds that Ashkenazim in EY should follow at least most of the
Sefardi minhagim because they came later. However, CI strongly disagreed
and felt that European olim should follow the minhag of where they came from
Some older sources: When the Rosh moved to Spain he wrote that the
Ashkenazi minhagim were better than the sefardic ones and he continued his
old customs. It is known that his descendants kept the ashkenazi mingahim
in Toledo, Spain for many generations.
The Maharshdam directly addresses the question and paskened that immigrants
to a town are considered a second bet din and have the right to keep a
separate community with their own customs.
--
Eli Turkel
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Message: 15
From: Eli Turkel
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 12:03:28 +0200
Subject: [Avodah] amein to a recorded bracha
<<Saying Amen to a recorded Bracha is an Amen Yesomah. When I was hired
to videotape the wedding of Rav Dovid Zucker' daughter,he asked me to try
and avoid recording the actual brachos for that reason.>>
The psak that I am familar with is that one is "yotzeh" a bracha if one
hears it live.
i.e. if one hears the megillah on the radio on Purim he can be exempt at
leats bidived.
However, if it is not live, ie recorded in the past than as HM states
answering amen
is inappropriate and one is not yotzeh
--
Eli Turkel
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Message: 16
From: Kenneth Miller
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 10:08:51 GMT
Subject: Re: [Avodah] The Quinoa - Kitniyos Conundrum
R' Micha Berger wrote:
> The IM (ibid, teshuvah 63), in his discussion which ends up
> permitting peanuts, comes out on the side of qitniyos being a
> list of specific items, that is not added to when other
> candidates arise. Which reasserts my question about people who
> use peanut oil, but not corn oil. Which was the norm during my
> childhood, BTW. Peanut oil was the staple oil during Pesach.
Perhaps Rav Moshe didn't consider all of kitniyos with one broad brush, but
had multiple definitions. For example, perhaps grains and legumes are
inherently different types of kitniyos in his eyes. If so, then it could be
that all grains are kitniyos (including rice and corn), but only specific
other vegetables (including lentils and peas) were added to that list (but
not peanuts or potatoes).
Alas, he never really told us his definition(s), and we are left groping for a pattern in his examples.
Akiva Miller
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Message: 17
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 10:02:54 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] amein to a recorded bracha
On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 12:03:28PM +0200, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
: The psak that I am familar with is that one is "yotzeh" a bracha if one
: hears it live.
This is the halakhah as I knew it as well.
But there could have been a gap between the criteria for being yotzei
by hearing someone else's berakhah and the criteria for avoiding an
amein yesomah. Situations where you may answer amein for the sake of
answering amein.
My hava amina was that perhaps amein yesomah is about not affirming the
sentiment at the first opportunity. Which would have more to do with
the timing of the amein with hearing the berakhah, rather than when it
was said.
For this reason, Rn Chana Luntz's post that RAM pointed to doesn't
discuss my question. But, she wrote in response to RYL pointing to
<http://revach.net/article.php?id=2181>, which does.
RSZA (Halihos Shelomo, Tefillah 22:15) says one may not answer amein
to a recording, since one isn't hearing a berakhah altogether. The
sounds coming out of a speaker or headphones can serve like the flags
in Alexandria to know a berakhah was said, but it's just machine noise,
not itself a berakhah.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger You will never "find" time for anything.
mi...@aishdas.org If you want time, you must make it.
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