Avodah Mailing List

Volume 33: Number 47

Tue, 24 Mar 2015

• 1. Re: Paradigm Changes in Halacha (Kenneth Miller)
• 2. Re: Rav Elchanan Wasserman & Why People Sin (Rich, Joel)
• 3. Re: atheism [was: Rav Elchanan Wasserman] ()
• 4. Re: Paradigm Changes in Halacha (Rich, Joel)
• 5. Re: Paradigm Changes in Halacha (Zev Sero)
• 6. The Worthiness of Common Courtesy (Prof. Levine)
• 7. The Secret of Shalom Bayis (Prof. Levine)
• 8. rotated words (saul newman)
• 9. Re: atheism [was: Rav Elchanan Wasserman] (Lisa Liel)
• 10. Amein to a Recorded Brachah (Micha Berger)
• 11. Priorities (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: Amein to a Recorded Brachah (Kenneth Miller)
• 13. Re: Amein to a Recorded Brachah (Harry Maryles)
• 14. Chazakah in Time and Space (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: Peshat and Drash (Was: Re: Meshech Chochmah on Kedushah) (Micha Berger)

R' Joel Rich asked:

> The example I have pondered were the first ashkenazi arrivals
> to NY where there was already a sfardic community established.
> What gave them the right, when enough of them showed up, to
> maintain (or go back) to an ashkenazi practice? ...

The first question to ask is whether or not they really did have that
right. It might simply be that the presence of fellow immigrants enabled
them to resist changing. I recall stories of how the Talmidei HaGra refused
to assimilate to the sefaradi presence in Eretz Yisrael.

I recall the sugya of "shnei batei din ba'ir" being very relevant to this
topic. Under what conditions (if any) are we *allowed* to set up a second
beis din, and under what conditions might it be done whether allowed or
not?

Akiva Miller



____________________________________________________________
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R. Shalom Carmy (who i believe is on this list) in class (and probably in
writing somewhere) contrasts R. Y.B. Soloveitchik's approach to why people
do not believe vs. R. Elchanan Wasserman position. It helps shed light upon
this important discussion.
 --------------------------
Could you please clarify which part of your post details R?YBS?s approach
KT
Joel Rich
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From: Eli Turkel via Avodah  <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>

>> R Michael Avraham holds that  one who does not believe in G-d (he 
disagrees
with REW and says there  certainly are many such people in modern society)
indeed do not get either  reward or punishment for their deeds. They are
outside the  system.<<

-- 
Eli Turkel

 
 
>>>>
 
I don't believe he said that.  If you don't believe in G-d you can  rape, 
pillage and murder at will and there are no consequences, no Judgment  Day?  
Hitler, Stalin and Mao all get a pass?
 
Something must have gotten lost in translation.
 

--Toby  Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


-------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 


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The first question to ask is whether or not they really did have that
right. It might simply be that the presence of fellow immigrants enabled
them to resist changing. I recall stories of how the Talmidei HaGra refused
to assimilate to the sefaradi presence in Eretz Yisrael.

I recall the sugya of "shnei batei din ba'ir" being very relevant to this
topic. Under what conditions (if any) are we *allowed* to set up a second
beis din, and under what conditions might it be done whether allowed or
not?

Akiva Miller
---------------------------------------------------
Talmidei Hagra is a great example, did they leave any halachic tracks explaining their approach or was it a davar pashut to them (and if so, why)?
KT
Joel Rich
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ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.

On 03/19/2015 01:00 PM, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
>> The example I have pondered were the first ashkenazi arrivals
>> to NY where there was already a sfardic community established.
>> What gave them the right, when enough of them showed up, to
>> maintain (or go back) to an ashkenazi practice? ...
>
> The first question to ask is whether or not they really did have that
> right. It might simply be that the presence of fellow immigrants
> enabled them to resist changing. I recall stories of how the Talmidei
> HaGra refused to assimilate to the sefaradi presence in Eretz Yisrael.

And in turn the Sefardim had refused to assimilate to the community that
was there when they arrived.  My working hypothesis is that it was the
Sefardi diaspora in the 16th century that established the standard that
immigrants can establish their own community rather than joining and
adopting the minhagim of the existing community.

As far as NY specifically is concerned, the precedents are Amsterdam and
London.   Shearith Israel was a direct offshoot of the Sefardi community
in Amsterdam, which had established itself separately from the Ashkenazi one.
And it was related to the one in London, which had refused to accept
Ashkenazim, who therefore started their own community in 1690.

-- 
Zev Sero               I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you
z...@sero.name          intend to commit felony...if a robber meets me in
                        the street and commands me to surrender my purse,
                        I have a right to kill him without asking questions
                                               -- John Adams

[]


The Worthiness of Common Courtesy


  The attainment of common courtesy precedes the study and 
fulfillment of Torah. For example, Moshe supervised the building of 
the Mishkan, which resulted in the the revelation of the Shechinah. 
Nevertheless, Moshe did not enter the Mishkan until HaShem summoned 
him, "And HaShem called to Moshe." (Vayikra 1:1)



Lesson: When we act with common courtesy -- the wisdom of sensitivity 
and respectfulness to others -- we are a fitting vessel of Torah.



App: Accustom yourself to be courteous, polite, and caring towards 
others -- and become a pure personification of Torah.


  (Based on Rashi and Da'as Torah of Rav Yerucham of Mir)




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[]


The Secret of Shalom Bayis



The Talmud relates that in Ma'aros Machpelah, "Avraham is resting in 
Sarah's arms and Sarah is gazing at Abraham's head." Avraham 
recognized that since his primary task was Torah study, he was 
somewhat lacking in kindness. Therefore, "he was resting in Sara's 
arms" -- relying on her kindness for his completeness. And Sarah 
recognized that since her primary task was kindness, she was somewhat 
lacking in Torah. Therefore, "she was gazing at his head -- relying 
on his Torah for her completeness.



Lesson: Our spouse enriches us in ways that no one else can and 
compensates for our inadequacies so that we attain spiritual wholeness.



App: Stay focused on the benefits, balance, and improvements that 
your spouse brings to your life -- and attain a harmonious and joyous 
relationship.




(Based on Bava Basra 58a)



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http://www.biu.ac.il/JH/Parasha/vayikra/Nezer.pdf

on words in tanach related to each other by  switching letters, like
 'keves' and  'kesev'....
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On 3/19/2015 3:49 PM, via Avodah wrote:
> From: Eli Turkel via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
>
> >> R Michael Avraham holds that one who does not believe in G-d (he 
> disagrees
> with REW and says there certainly are many such people in modern society)
> indeed do not get either reward or punishment for their deeds. They are
> outside the system.<<
>
> -- 
> Eli Turkel
> >>>>
> I don't believe he said that.  If you don't believe in G-d you can 
> rape, pillage and murder at will and there are no consequences, no 
> Judgment Day?  Hitler, Stalin and Mao all get a pass?
> Something must have gotten lost in translation.

I imagine that if this is what he said, he meant that when they die, 
they die.  No afterlife.  Just... gone.

Lisa

I was listening to a podcast a few days ago, and out of habit answered
"amein" to a berakhah made by the magid shiur weeks before I heard it.

Which made me wonder, would that be an amein yesomah?

AIUI, the same MP3. if heard streaming live, would be appropriate to
answer. Similar to the flags utilized in the Temple in Alexandria for
signaling the end of a berakhah or other occasions to respond. But
here, there is no live berakhah to acknowledge.

OTOH, you are affirming an actually stated sentiment when you first learn
it was said.

The flag thing would imply that the critical time is when it was spoken,
but the concept of amain would imply that it's when it was first heard.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Friendship is like stone. A stone has no value,
mi...@aishdas.org        but by rubbing one stone against another,
http://www.aishdas.org   sparks of fire emerge. 
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  - Rav Mordechai of Lechovitz

Another thought from AhS yomi I had no one else to share with...

From the end of OC 472:14:

    Even an ani who is supported by tzedaqah should sell his clothes
    or borrow or hire himself out for [money to pay] for the 4 kosos.
    Or receive [the money] from the gabai tzedaqah.
    ...
    A neir for his home comes before the 4 kosos because of shalom
    bayis, as I wrote in siman 263 [se'if 8, WRT Shabbos].

I saw in these snippets two interesting statements about priorities:

1- Better to earn money than accept tzedaqah.

2- Shalom bayis is a more "real" inyan than a black-letter derabbanan
   like qiddush al hakos or the 4 kosos of the sefer.

   DE qodmah laTorah made halakhah lemaaseh.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man is capable of changing the world for the
mi...@aishdas.org        better if possible, and of changing himself for
http://www.aishdas.org   the better if necessary.
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Victor Frankl, Man's search for Meaning

R' Micha Berger asked:

> I was listening to a podcast a few days ago, and out of habit
> answered "amein" to a berakhah made by the magid shiur weeks
> before I heard it.
>
> Which made me wonder, would that be an amein yesomah?
>
> ... Similar to the flags utilized in the Temple in Alexandria ...

This question predates podcasts by decades, ever since the invention of the
gramophone and wire recorder. And those flags rarely fail to be cited in
those discussions. For just one example, check out R"n Chana Luntz's
typically thorough post at http://www.aish
das.org/avodah/vol28/v28n229.shtml#13

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
How Old Men Tighten Skin
63 Year Old Man Shares DIY Skin Tightening Method You Can Do From Home
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/5510cdc44c0a94dc42252st03vuc

On Tuesday, March 24, 2015 1:29 AM, Kenneth Miller wrote:
> R' Micha Berger asked:
>> Which made me wonder, would that be an amein yesomah?

>> ... Similar to the flags utilized in the Temple in Alexandria ...

> This question predates podcasts by decades, ever since the
> invention of the gramophone and wire recorder. And those flags
> rarely fail to be cited in those discussions...

Saying Amen to a recorded Bracha is an Amen Yesomah. When I was hired
to videotape the wedding of Rav Dovid Zucker's daughter, (R' Dovid is
the RK of the CCK) he asked me to try and avoid recording the actual
brachos for that reason.

HM

We've discussed chazaqah more than once in the past, so I thought perhaps
someone else would both find the following (1) interesting and (2) new.

I came across the following in AhS 467:34-35.

Mechazqinan issur mizeman lizman. No surprise there, that's the usual
chazaqah demei'iqara. But here we're also going backward in time, that
the state we find now is presumed to hold in the past.

... velo mimaqom lemaqom.

Comparing similar cases, in both situations we filled a bowl from a
cistern of water.

If we find a grain of chameitz in the cistern after the bowl was filled,
we assume it was already there before the water for the bowl was drawn,
and since chameitz is assur bemashehu, both are assur on Pesach.

We ignore the possibility that the grain fell in afterward.

If the grain is found in the bowl, however, the bowl of water is assur,
but the cistern may be used on Pesach.

We do not ignore the possibility that the grain was already in the bowl
before pouring. Even though it's quite likely that this is less probable
than the odds we ignored in the first case.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             None of us will leave this place alive.
mi...@aishdas.org        All that is left to us is
http://www.aishdas.org   to be as human as possible while we are here.
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Anonymous MD, while a Nazi prisoner

On Sun, Mar 08, 2015 at 12:30:34PM -0400, H Lampel via Avodah wrote:
:> R' M Bluke: In the Mishneh Torah yes, but in the Moreh Nevuchim the
:> Rambam says that this is the pshat in the pasuk, He writes (Moreh
:> Nevuchim 3:41): ..."Someone who cut off someone?s limb his limb will
:> be cut off ... don't think we are talking about a punishment of
:> payment because my goal is to explain what is written not the halacha."

: In the Mishneh Torah as well (Chovel U'Mazik 2:1), the Rambam explains
: that the posuk is referring to the punishment he really deserves. But the
: Dor R'vi'i is positing something about how, historically, the Chachamim
: originally understood the halacha to be applied practically. Regarding
: this, the Rambam in the introduction to his Mishneh commentary emphasizes:

:     We have never found a dispute arising among the sages of any era,
:     from the days of Moshe to those of Rav Ashi, in which one sage would
:     say that on the grounds that God said, "Ayin tachas ayin," we blind
:     the eye of one who blinds the eye of his fellow and the other sage
:     would state that the verse merely means that he is obligated to
:     monetarily compensate for the loss...

As you already noted, this might be about the nature of machloqes. On
Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 12:05:28PM -0400, you wrote:
:                                                   As I argue in
: /Dynamics of Dispute,/ the Rambam denies that machlokess could be
: attributed to /one/ of the disputants having lost the mesorah and
: continuing to insist on his view despite his opponent's proven
: maintaining of the mesorah....

Perhaps there were deOraisos where the pesaq changed because of a newly
applied derashah, but it was never that one said this was how halakhah
was understood miSinai and another says that this is new.

And moving away from the Rambam, what was done with Moavios before
Rus? Since Peloni Almoni was worried that a future beis din might rever
the derashah, it would seem that until then they weren't accepted,
and now, with Boaz's BD, the din changed. Or at least, that no Moavios
actually tried to convert, and it was considered a realitistic hava amina
that had one tried to, we wouldn't necessarily accept her. In either
case, it would imply that the new understanding did establish a din that
we didn't understand that way since Sinai. Whether we had a definite
opinion otherwise until now or not.

The difference between the examples is that for a society to function,
ayin tachas ayin would be invoked regularly. There is little window for
forgetting. Aside from something like Galus Bavel, where we didn't have
a functioning society. But in general, rarely used derashos could be
forgotten, barring belief in siyata diShmaya preventing it.

: The Rambam blames the misunderstanding on people's confusing
: (a) Drashos used to /generate/ details (that did not remain intact
: and, in his words, ''were not heard about'' by the recipients,
: including already those of Yehoshua's generation), which were open
: to dispute, and

: (b) Drashos used to back up details that were known from Sinai and
: still intact...

Details being a kind of forgettable law, but I find it interesting
he doesn't refer to Moavi velo Mo'acis and other rarely-occuring
non-details.

But in any case, we're now discussing what kind of machloqes is
possible. Whereas RMHalbertal's understanding of the Rambam focused
on how rabbis have authority to interpret halakhah. The two questions
have to have consisten answers, but they are different questions.

:                   In short, contra RMH's essay, the Rambam clearly
: accepted the concept that details of halachos could be forgotten
: over time, and that restoring them is a function of drashos.

RMH doesn't deny this. Rather, he asserted that the Rambam holds that
what makes one shitah right is that it matches original intent --
whether that means miSinai, or the first to extrapolate to / legislate
for a new case. ("Acccumulative", new dinim accumulate as cases do.)
We might err, and pasqen according to the other shitah.

Whereas the other rishonim believe that the only kind of error is when
a pesaq violates kelalei pesaq. When we have two viable shitos, the
right one is defined by the process of pesaq itself. ("Constitutive",
right is what the beis din constitutes as being right.)

On Tue, Mar 03, 2015 at 01:57:42PM +0200, Marty Bluke wrote:
: The fundamental question is what is the purpose of derashos? Do they
: actually create halachos or are they just a way of remembering the halacha.
: 1 is associated with the Malbim and 2 with the Doros Harishonim according
: to these seforim.

Or that it depends on the derashah.

The medrash in Rus is a clear early precedent for the Malbim. And that
medrash may predate the geonim, but was during the geonic era. So it's
hard to say that all the geonim say machloqes always comes from forgetting
(as you do below); they believe in deOraisos being discovered later as
derashos are found. Did the new derashah always come with instant
consensus?

: This would seem to be dependent on the machlokes between the Geonim and the
: Rambam as to what did we get at Har Sinai and what is the nature of
: Machlokes?
: 1. Geonim - every single detail was given at Har Sinai and any machlokes is
: because the din was forgotten...

: 2. Rambam - Not every detail was given to Moshe Rabenu and Machlokes is NOT
: because of people forgetting things. According to the Rambam it is clear
: that derashos create halachos.

Except that RZL posted a counter-example. Which is why I suggested the
possibility that different derashos might serve different roles.

It's explicit in Mamrim 2:1 that new laws are made based on derashos.
"BD Gadol shedrash be'achas min hamidos kevi mah shenir'eh be'eineihem
shehadin kakh, vedanu din..."

:> But, neither help understand the story of Moshe's visit to Rabbi Aqiva's
:> shiur...

: The Brisker Rav (Menachos 29b) has a fascinating explanation of this Gemara
: which may help answer your question.

: He explains that according to R' Yosi (Sanhedrin 21a) the Torah was given
: to Moshe Rabenu in ksav ivri. Ksav Ivri is very different then ksav ashuri
: and has no tagin. Therefore, Moshe Rabenu couldn't darshen the derashos
: that R' Akiva was making because the raw material for those derashos (the
: tagin) didn't exist in his time. It was only after Ezra changed the ksav to
: ashuris that these derashos could be made.

Which in any case would make them later than miSinai.

But there is also Rashi's easy answer: Moshe's vision of R' Aqiva's class
was early in the 40 days he spent learning the Torah on Har Sinai. R'
Aqiva taught dinim Moshe learned later.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man can aspire to spiritual-moral greatness
mi...@aishdas.org        which is seldom fully achieved and easily lost
http://www.aishdas.org   again. Fulfillment lies not in a final goal,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      but in an eternal striving for perfection. -RSRH


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