Avodah Mailing List

Volume 33: Number 21

Sun, 08 Feb 2015

• 1. Re: How binding is Minhag? (elazar teitz)
• 2. how binding is minhag (Eli Turkel)
• 3. More Common Kiddush Questions: Kiddush B'Makom Seudah (Prof. Levine)
• 4. "Torah only" (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: How Did Rashi Make a Living? (Zev Sero)
• 6. Re: "Torah only" (Rich, Joel)
• 7. Re: "Torah only" (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: "Torah only" (Eitan Levy)
• 9. Re: "Torah only" (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: "Torah only" (Rich, Joel)
• 11. Re: "Torah only" (Kenneth Miller)
• 12. Re: "Torah only" (Micha Berger)
• 13. When Is A Kiddush Not A Kiddush? (Prof. Levine)
• 14. Re: The Sunrise of Sparkling Vultures (Micha Berger)

     Reacting to the comment:

    >> But in many matters I'm afraid to act according to the custom of my
fathers, since in Israel, the accepted minhag goes according to the
renewed custom of the Prushim, disciples of the Gaon of Vilna (Gra),<<

    RMicha Berger wrote:

     >Tangent: Actually I noticed that it's really only those minhagim of
the Perushim that coincide with those of Chabad and/or Sephara -- the
other two large communities of the yishuv hayashan.<

     That is not quite accurate.  One notable example is the shir shel yom
for the various chagim umo'adim, where minhag haGra eliminates the day of
the week shir entirely and says a shir specific for the occasion.  Another
is reading Shir haShirim, Koheles and Rus from a klaf, saying both Al Mikra
Megilla and Shehecheyanu, while neither the S'faradim nor Chabad read those
megillos at all.  Also, (at least some) shuls following the Gra say the
yotzros of the Arba Parshios after Chazaras haShatz, while neither the
S'faradim nor Chabad say them at all.

     On the other hand, the Prushim picked up some of the S'faradi customs,
even though the Gra did not follow them, such as saying Ein Keilokeinu
daily, saying viduy and 13 middos prior to Tachanun on Mondays and
Thursdays (the S'faradim say it daily), replacing Sholom Rov with Sim
Shalom in Mincha of Shabbos, and repeating Borchu after ma'ariv, and after
Shacharis on days the Torah is not read.

     As for the German minhagim, there is one shul, in Bnei Brak, which
faithfully adheres to them.  I believe that their rov is R. Hamburger, the
author of the four- (thus far) volume set, Shorshei Minhag Ashk'naz.  The
only minhag I'm not sure of is whether they say Boruch Hashem l'olam in
ma'ariv.

EMT
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<<Furthermore, it should be noted that the minhag
of Ashkenaz is very old and clearly pre-dates the
minhag of the Prushim, which, as is well-known,
is not even the accurate minhag of the Gra, and
it saddens me that our minhag is gradually being
forgotten. Rabbi, should I move to a place where
there is a minyan that follows my ancestor?s customs accurately??>>

Modern day Israeli minhag was established by those that came to EY early in
the modern era. This includes the Perushim and some chassidic sects but not
Yekkes or Litvaks.
Hence most Ashkenazi shuls in Israel daven Nusach Sefard (Chassidic) while
some shuls mainly in Jerusalem follow the customs from the GRA as brought
by his talmidim. Whether they are accruate minhag hagra is irrelevant,

When these European Jews came to EY there was already established a
sefardi community with their own customs. When their was mass aliya from
Northern Africa these communities brought their own minhagim.
The oldest customs have no special status.

However, there are a few places that do indeed follow the Frankfurt minhagim
Thus, for example almost all shuls in Israel do not have a minyan wearing
tefillin on chol hamoed though I have heard rumors of places where they put
on tefillin at home.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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Have you ever wondered why after partaking of Kiddush in shul, many 
people nonetheless make Kiddush again at the onset of their Shabbos 
Day Seudah? If one already fulfilled their Kiddush obligation in 
shul, what could the requirement possibly be for another at home? How 
many times must Kiddush be recited? Additionally, if people generally 
make Kiddush on Mezonos on Shabbos Day, why don't we do that on 
Friday night as well? Interestingly, the answers to all of these 
questions are intertwined...

To find out why, read the full article: 
<https://go.madmimi.com/redirects/1423160111
-ed087022994a88f42bba15660882b68b-d9e8867?pa=28113731418>More 
Common Kiddush Questions: Kiddush B'Makom Seudah.


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On 02/05/2015 06:32 AM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> I mean someone who believes the ideal is only Torah, and secular studies,
> western culture, parnasah, what have you, are concessions to reality.
>
> So, it's not really finding a shiur of limudei chol to declare a line at
> which "Torah only" begins, but really in a sense "Torah only". Torah only
> is the belief that an ehrlicher balebas who is meduyaq bemitzvos qalos
> kachamuros in all four Turim of the SA (the perfect balebas) is still
> inferior to a kollelnik who isn't the world's greatest masmid, but is
> trying -- the not-quite-perfect kollelnik who could have been closer to
> to the ideal balebas.

I don't agree that that is the "Torah only" attitude.  I think such a
balaboss, provided that he learns Torah every moment that he *can*, is
fully within the "Torah only" model, while a kollelnik who takes an
hour a day to learn limudei chol that are not immediately necessary is
not.

Similarly, if someone looks something up in a secular book because he came
across some problem in his learning, and needs this knowledge to understand
the sugya, then it's no longer chol; he has transformed it into kodesh.

And of course once someone has "filled his stomach" with shas and poskim,
and now feels he needs "parpera'os lachochma" in order to complete himself,
that is also within the "Torah only" model.

What is not "Torah only" is giving independent value to non-Torah studies,
studying them at a time when they are not needed, either for survival or
for understanding what one has learned in Torah.

On 02/05/2015 05:27 AM, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> At 07:46 PM 2/4/2015, R. Micha wrote:
>> In any case, not really who Prof Levine is looking for on a list of
>> baalei mesorah who had professions.

> I was not looking for a  a list of  baalei mesorah who had
> professions.  I was pointing out that RASHI was not a Torah only
> person,  given that he was involved in secular pursuits.

Except that the article you linked to as proof says the exact opposite,
that his full-time occupation was Rosh Yeshivah, and that is how he made
his living.


On 02/05/2015 06:01 AM, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> Given what you have written now, the terminology "Torah only" is,
> IMO, misleading. I guess you mean Torah with some secular studies.
> So, now the question is, "What is the extent of the study of secular
> subjects?" for you to put someone in the Torah only camp. Please give
> some guidelines.

There is no indication that Rashi ever studied anything but Torah.

What is not "Torah only" is giving independent value to non-Torah studies,
studying them at a time when they are not needed, either for survival or
for understanding what one has learned in Torah.


_______________________________________________
As I used to tell my sons, 80% of what they learn in school won't be
needed, the trouble is you don't know what the other 20% is until too late.
If one views Torah as encompassing all of our lives, then just about all
learning can be  related to Torah.
KT
Joel Rich
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On 02/05/2015 06:21 PM, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
>> What is not "Torah only" is giving independent value to non-Torah studies,
>> studying them at a time when they are not needed, either for survival or
>> for understanding what one has learned in Torah.

> As I used to tell my sons, 80% of what they learn in school won't be
> needed, the trouble is you don't know what the other 20% is until too
> late. If one views Torah as encompassing all of our lives, then just
> about all learning can be related to Torah.

Limmud hatorah itself doesn't encompass all our lives, it encompasses actual
learning.  Bechol drachecha da`ehu is a separate matter.   And you seem not
to have noticed what I wrote, "at a time when they are not needed".  If you
are learning a sugya and a question comes up that requires some piece of
secular information to answer, then gaining that information is part of
learning the sugya.   Doing general study just in case it might one day come
in useful is not learning Torah.

R' Joel Rich Writes: " What is not "Torah only" is giving independent value
to non-Torah studies, studying them at a time when they are not needed,
either for survival or for understanding what one has learned in Torah.
_______________________________________________
As I used to tell my sons, 80% of what they learn in school won't be needed,
the trouble is you don't know what the other 20% is until too late. If one
views Torah as encompassing all of our lives, then just about all learning
can be  related to Torah."

I happen to agree. But I think the problem with this discussion is that we
are dancing around what is essentially a sociological problem, not a real
'Torah' issue. I agree with R' Zev Sero that the *authentic* 'Torah only'
approach would respect a 'ideal Baal Bayit' as much or more than a 'less
than ideal kollelnick' but at least in Israel that is far from the reality
and is not what rabbanim tend to proclaim in public. They do not allow any
secular learning at all in most haredi schools in Israel, and proclaim full
time Torah study as the highest calling for every Jewish man. The young
women are raised to only want to marry full time Torah scholars and men who
work for a living are denigrated and treated substantially as second class
members of the community. So if the quite reasonable view expressed by R'
Sero is indeed an authentic and correct Torah attitude reflecting the true
beliefs of the 'Torah only' approach espoused by most haredi gedolim of the
previous (and present) generation, then the sociological reality of Haredi
life in Israel is deeply out of tune with it.
---
Peace and Blessings,
-Eitan Levy

Tour Guide, Trip Coordinator
www.rabbieitan.com
Phone: +972-50-980-7602

On Fri, Feb 06, 2015 at 08:00:37AM +0200, Eitan Levy via Avodah wrote:
:                I agree with R' Zev Sero that the *authentic* 'Torah only'
: approach would respect a 'ideal Baal Bayit' as much or more than a 'less
: than ideal kollelnick' but at least in Israel that is far from the reality
: and is not what rabbanim tend to proclaim in public...

I am not sure. It's not a necessary feature of an authentic approach.

I think it depends also on how Torah learning is ranked in comparison
to the rest of the mitzvos. If it is talmud Torah in particular that
keeps the world running, purifies souls, etc.... then the consequent
"Torah only" camp would not only shun secularity, they would also place
less value someone with a different focus in their avodas Hashem than
the kollelnik's.

(And this isn't only Israel; it's the message American yeshivish
boys are getting. Which is why the boys who go OTD are predominantly
dyslexic and/or ADD -- boys who hear the message that they will always
be inferior Jews because it's so much harder for them to learn. Who
would be motivated to keep at it?)

To bring this to Torah.... Some years ago my LOR saw me learning Nefesh
haChaim, and advised that I focus on sha'ar 4, because that's what they
do in yeshivos, and sort of skim over 1-3 and the "perarim between 3 and
4". I presume this is largely because of the general avoidance of Qabbalh
in the past century and a half among Litvaks and those influenced by them.
(Obviously not before -- look at the Gra and the book in question!)

Well, if you base your hashkafah on cheleq 4 of NhC alone, you learn
that all of metaphysics revolves around talmud Torah. Cheileq 1 deals
with mitzvos maasiyos, 2 is about tefillah, and the peraqim -- about
mussar and the bttle with the yeitzer hara. (Cheileq 3 is more about
G-d than about our avodas Hashem.) For the latter 2/3 of the cheileq,
RCV portrays Torah learning as *the* mitzvah which sustains existence,
fixes souls, etc...

You would naturally go beyond "talmud Torah keneged kulam" -- which
does not even necessarily mean that it is equal to the other 612 (see
R' Wolbe's seifer discussing the 7 mitzvos which are "keneged kulam")
-- and take it to mean it's front and center, with all other mitzvos
in the back seat.

There is a reason why the camp calls itself "yeshivish".

There is a real hashkafic reason to the centrality of talmud Torah
in the "Lithuanian" section of the chareidi camp. It's not just sociology.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Feeling grateful  to or appreciative of  someone
mi...@aishdas.org        or something in your life actually attracts more
http://www.aishdas.org   of the things that you appreciate and value into
Fax: (270) 514-1507      your life.         - Christiane Northrup, M.D.

> Limmud hatorah itself doesn't encompass all our lives, it encompasses actual
> learning.  Bechol drachecha da`ehu is a separate matter. 

AIUI limud hatorah is to inform on all our lives - how can we know him
in all our ways without knowing him to the extent we can (as R' HS often
says - the Torah in total is HKB"H's representation to man)?

>  And you seem not to have noticed 

I guess email is an imperfect method of communication as I had distinctly
noticed that phrase

>               what I wrote, "at a time when they are not needed".  If you
> are learning a sugya and a question comes up that requires some piece of
>secular information to answer, then gaining that information is part of
>learning the sugya.   Doing general study just in case it might one day come
>in useful is not learning Torah.

If you don't have a background in a secular studies area (this is
what I understand the GRA's 100x comment to mean) you won't know some
questions to ask or how to think about that area in certain "pure Torah"
areas. Psychology, history and probability two areas that come to
mind immediately. The balance is a tough question to answer.

KT
Joel Rich

R' Eitan Levy wrote:

> As I used to tell my sons, 80% of what they learn in school
> won't be needed, the trouble is you don't know what the other
> 20% is until too late.

And when "too late" arrives, it's not merely because you're out of school.
It's also because you missed the opportunity to learn it when young.
Certain concepts are such that if one grows up with them, he gets an innate
appreciation for what it means and how it works. An older person, late in
the game, might be able to memorize facts and figures, but true
understanding is a whole 'nother story.

Of course, this is true for Torah too. And the time spent insuring that one
understands the other topics will detract from the time he has to get a
deep understanding of Torah topics. I suppose that finding the best balance
is what this thread is all about.

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
How Old Men Tighten Skin
63 Year Old Man Shares DIY Skin Tightening Method You Can Do From Home
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/54d514a77822914a722a4st01vuc

On Fri, Feb 06, 2015 at 6:49am EST, Iwrote:
: On Fri, Feb 06, 2015 at 08:00:37AM +0200, Eitan Levy via Avodah wrote:
::                I agree with R' Zev Sero that the *authentic* 'Torah only'
:: approach would respect a 'ideal Baal Bayit' as much or more than a 'less
:: than ideal kollelnick' but at least in Israel that is far from the reality
:: and is not what rabbanim tend to proclaim in public...

: I am not sure. It's not a necessary feature of an authentic approach.

: I think it depends also on how Torah learning is ranked in comparison
: to the rest of the mitzvos. If it is talmud Torah in particular that
: keeps the world running, purifies souls, etc.... then the consequent
: "Torah only" camp would not only shun secularity, they would also place
: less value someone with a different focus in their avodas Hashem than
: the kollelnik's.

On Fri I was reminded (by a point made by RARR) of a maqor for this from
the gemara. (Discussed 8 years ago "Torah Study vs Other Contributions
to Society" <http://j.mp/1v9tFEr>.) Megillah 17b:

    "Ki Mordechai haYhudi .... veratzui lerov echav..." (Esther 10:3)

    "Lerov echav -- velo kol echav" some of the Sanhedrin left him.

    R' Yoseif said: gadol talmud torah yoseir meihatzalos nefashos.
    Because originally he was after four [prior rabbis] (Ezra 2) and in
    the end [his name is listed] after 5 (Nechemiah 6). ... Amar Rav
    ve'iteima R' Shemuel bar Martha: Talmud Torah is greater than
    building the BHMQ. Because as long as Baruch ben Nuriah was alive
    [to teach him], Ezra didn't abandon him and make aliyah.

    Amar Rabbah amar R' Yitzchaq b Shemuel bar Bar Martha: TT is greater
    than kibud av va'eim, for Yaaqov wasn't punished all the years that
    he learned by Sheim ve'Eiver.

It's not "just" some anonymous members of the Sanhedrin of the era --
Anshei Keneses haGdolah -- who make this point, R' Yoseif takes lesson
from it.

(Again, I'm not defending this kind of "learning and 612 minor mitzvos"
approach" as my own derekh, but as one that is well sourced and deserves
my respect as a derekh for those which it does better fit.)

Gut Voch!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Here is the test to find whether your mission
mi...@aishdas.org        on Earth is finished:
http://www.aishdas.org   if you're alive, it isn't.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Richard Bach

 From http://tinyurl.com/m8ra36a

The common shul kiddush presents a puzzling halakhic case because it 
seems to contradict a basic rule. Kiddush must be part of a meal. 
However, the shul kiddush is generally not a meal as classically 
defined in Jewish law because it lacks bread/challah. A Shabbos meal 
should contain two challos yet most people eat no challah at all at a 
shul kiddush.

In itself, this is not problematic. We could call it a "kiddush" with 
quotation marks, tacitly smirking at the misnomer. However, another 
law forbids eating before (real) kiddush. Therefore, unless the shul 
kiddush is halakhically proper, you are not allowed to eat it. We 
will examine three very different approaches from important halakhic 
authorities of the twentieth century, each with surprising implications.

See the above URL for more.  YL
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On Thu, Feb 05, 2015 at 02:06:28AM +0000, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
: Almost no other regular Hebrew words begin with heh-kamatz, but I did
: find a few: hagun (proper), haduk (tight), hadur (glorious) Those all
: seem to be adjectives. And now I wonder: Is "hanetz" an adjective? ...

The other words also have a dropped letter from their shoresh, but they
all have something in common that "haneitz" does not -- the shuruq.
I think haramas terumah might actually be closer. In fact, in Leshon
Tanakh, I think whe gift to the kohein would be called "haramah" rather
than the mishnaic "terumah".

I think the form here is a semichut, like "Benei Yisrael" instead of
"habaim shel Yisrael". "Haneitz hachamah", the sparkling of the sun.



: PS: Now that I finally understand when to use "its" and "it's", can
: anyone help me with "which" and "that"?

When Miscrosoft word puts a squiggly line under "which", you should use
"that". For a serious answer
<http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/words/that-or-which>.

However, I wouldn't have written to correct an English error. The
difference is that (according the Ramban, if not the Rambam), calling it
"haneitz" is holier. English lacks such ties to sanctity.

From <http://www.aishdas.org/asp/qedushah>:
> In parashas Sheqalim, the portion discussing the mitzvah for each person
> to donate a 1/2 sheqel coin to the Temple (also counted for a census),
> we are told to take "half a sheqel of a sheqel haqodesh". The Ramban
> (ad loc) explains that these sheqalim were considered sacred because
> they were used for holy purposes....                     Along similar
> lines, Rabbeinu Bachya (ad loc) writes, "Since all mitzvos are the core
> of holiness and some mitzvos require this currency," the currency takes
> on a holiness corresponding to its use.

> The Ramban continues, Hebrew is called leshon haqodesh -- the holy
> language -- because it was and continues to be used for holy purposes. It
> is the language in which G-d said "yehi or -- let there be light", in
> which He gave us the Torah and the Tanakh was written, the language in
> which our ancestors were named, etc...

> However, the Ramban (Nachmanides) notes that the Rambam (Maimonides)
> has a very different understanding of why Hebrew is called "the holy
> language". In his Guide for the Perplexed (3:8), Rambam explains that
> Hebrew is called sacred because it has no specific words for uniquely
> male and female body parts, for the acts that lead to conception of a
> child, nor does it have precise terms for the various bodily emissions
> and excretions.

> Rabbi Shimon Romm [2] explains this dispute between Rambam and Ramban
> as being a fundamental disagreement over the nature of qedushah, holiness.

> According to Ramban (Nachmanides), holiness comes from being committed
> for a purpose. When currency is used for a mitzvah it becomes sacred
> and when a language is used to create the world and convey the Torah it
> becomes sanctified.

> According to the Rambam (Maimonides), however, holiness is not due to a
> positive usage but to a lack of diminution of its purity. A language is
> inherently sacred and only loses that status when it contains less than
> holy words. Presumably, the Rambam would explain that the sheqel haqodesh
> is called holy because, as the Ramban himself suggests at the beginning
> of his comments, the sheqel coins used in the Torah were entirely pure,
> lacking all dilution. This purity of content, rather than its sanctity
> of use, is what earned for these coins the title of qadosh. R' Romm
> continued that it would seem that the Rashi we looked at agrees with the
> Rambam. By not engaging in prohibited action, one lives up to "be holy".

...
> [2] Rabbi Shimon Romm was a student of the pre-war Mirrer Yeshiva who
> participated in their flight from Nazi-occupied Vilna to Shanghai. He
> became a rabbi in Washington Heights, NY and a rosh yeshiva in Yeshiva
> University. Thanks to R' Gil Student for relaying this thought.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I have great faith in optimism as a philosophy,
mi...@aishdas.org        if only because it offers us the opportunity of
http://www.aishdas.org   self-fulfilling prophecy.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                              - Arthur C. Clarke


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