Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 169

Thu, 18 Dec 2014

• 1. Re: Once the Slaughterer is Given Permission... (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Once the Slaughterer is Given Permission... (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: cutting tephillin retzuos (Kenneth Miller)
• 4. Re: cutting tephillin retzuos (Zev Sero)
• 5. Tumah in Bayis Sheini and the Tahara of the oil (Isaac Balbin)
• 6. Re: Tumah in Bayis Sheini and the Tahara of the oil (Kenneth Miller)
• 7. Re: Tumah in Bayis Sheini and the Tahara of the oil (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Once the Slaughterer is Given Permission... (Michael Poppers)
• 9. Re: Once the Slaughterer is Given Permission... (Zev Sero)
• 10. Re: Age of Universe (Micha Berger)
• 11. Kislev_II Hellenism and Judaism (Collected Writings II) (Prof. Levine)
• 12. Re: Kislev_II Hellenism and Judaism (Collected Writings II) (Rafi Hecht)
• 13. Not by might, nor by power, but by My spirit, says the Lord of Hosts Zechariah (4:6) (Cantor Wolberg)
• 14. Insights Into Halacha: The Chanuka Candle / Havdalah Hullabaloo (Prof. Levine)

On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 11:41:05PM +0000, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
: If I'm understanding R' Micha Berger correctly, he is asking: if you DO
: subscribe to the idea that hashgachah peratis (HP) is universal across
: all people, (which I interpret to mean that everything that happens to
: everyone at every instant of their lives, is a specific and independent
: judgment directly from Hashem, befitting that person and what he deserves
: at that instant,) then how can it be that "Besha'ah shenitenah reshus
: lamashchis lechavel eino mavchin bein tzadiq lerasha"? (Literally: When
: the destroyer is given permission to cause injury, it [injures all, and]
: doesn't distinguish between tzadik and rasha.)
...

Except that HP needn't be sekhar va'onesh. As Zev wrote on Wed, Nov 26,
2014 at 03:35pm EST:
: AIUI there's no contradiction. It's not that there's no individual
: decision "mi yichyeh umi yamus", it's that at such a time merit is not
: a factor in making that decision. The weight of the "merit" property
: is temporarily set to 0, and the decision is made entirely on other
: grounds, that may seem random to us. Each person is judged, but the
: tzadik and the rasha are, ceteris paribu, judged equally.

So I don't agree with RAM when he continues:
: Specifically: There are situations where even a real rasha is judged
: leniently, for no reason specific to him, but rather because of external
: factors. Sometimes we ask Hashem to go easy on us, even though we
: don't deserve it, simply because we are Jewish. Sometimes people are
: advised to make themselves indispensable to the kahal, as a sort of life
: insurance. If those prayers and occupations succeed, then they violate
: Hashgacha Pratis, do they not?

Since in your example Hashem is giving the person a custom tailored
fate, not they wouldn't defy HP. They don't even necessarily defy sechar
va'onesh. Yes, a prayed-for reprieve could be a chance for teshuvah,
but the prayer itself could have been the teshuvah, the prayer could
just shift that the onesh would be, etc...

The problem I have with Zev's response, though, is sekhar mitzvos behai
alma leiqa. Every judgment in olam hazeh is tempered by other concerns by
that kind of fate that particular soul needs. What makes times shenitenah
reshus lamashchis unique?

Also, I personally would dovetail Zev's answer with Michael's.

On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 01:24pm EST, R Michael Poppers via Avodah wrote:
: I understand that *ma'amar* as referring to a community/region-wide
: judgment in which individuals are _not judged individually_.  Put another
: way, the community is judged as one "individual"...

But the two aren't mutually exclusive. HP in general requires believing
that fates are woven so that an event touches each person's life just
as is appropriate for them.

For example, RYBS's explanation of what a Mi sheBeirakh is supposed to
accomplish.

Quoting my blog at <http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2008/03/mi-shebeirakh.shtml>
and Avodah 2008:

> When someone is found guilty of a crime, he may be sent to jail. But
> that person isn't the only person who gets punished. His wife loses
> his companionship. His children lose access to their father. They
> and his parents are shamed. His employer loses out on an employee,
> and his customers on his services. The person he used to say
> "Hello!" to on the way to work every morning gets that much less joy
> in the morning. For that matter, the people they meet get impacted
> because the employer faces these people when he is more stressed. The
> impact of one person's imprisonment ripples outward.

> We are only human beings. We can't take all that into account when
> deciding when and how to punish someone.

> However, Hashem can. Every person impacted by some tragedy are
> impacted in some customized way appropriate for their life story.

> Rav JB Soloveitchik uses this idea to explain how a "Mi sheBeirakh"
> works. It is hard enough to understand how someone's own prayer can
> cause their fate to be modified. But how would we explain how a sick
> person's health would be improved in response to the prayers of
> people he might not have ever met or ever learn of their prayer or
> perhaps never even know of their existence?

> Rav Soloveitchik answers that the tefillah turns the personal
> tragedy into a communal one. Across the community, someone does not
> deserve to hear of the tragedy. Someone's impact would be unfair.
> And the community itself, as a corporate entity, has merit that
> perhaps is greater than that of the sum of its members. The
> community's standing is continuous since Avraham, touched by every
> person along the chain of tradition; its members' standing dates
> back to their births.

However, it could be that for the sake of national justice, individual
justice is temporary suspended and yet still each person gets exactly
what is appropriate for non-justice reasons.

But once you assert that kind of coordination, you didn't need to
eliminate personal justice from the picture.

So, it would seem to me that either
1- We say that even HQBH can't weave everyone's fate that way. Perhaps
it violates His own rules against creating paradoxes or miracles in times
of hesteir panim or when underserbed. But then universal HP would
go out the window even without the mashchis getting livense.

2- If we truly assert universal HP, then we believe that the mashachis
can operate on a national level and yet simultaneously on an HP level.
In which case, why would the factors that HQBH uses to decide when
to judge and when to invoke other HP be difference when the mashchis
is roaming the streets?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One doesn't learn mussar to be a tzaddik,
mi...@aishdas.org        but to become a tzaddik.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On 12/15/2014 09:55 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> The problem I have with Zev's response, though, is sekhar mitzvos behai
> alma leiqa. Every judgment in olam hazeh is tempered by other concerns by
> that kind of fate that particular soul needs. What makes times shenitenah
> reshus lamashchis unique?

Sechar may be leika, but in ordinary times mitzvos are definitely
a protection.  We are told that over and over.  Not just tzedaka,
mezuzah, aliya laregel, and a few others that have special protective
qualities, but all mitzvos protect from harm.  Yes, they are not the
*only* factor, but they are a strong one.  What the maamar Chazal we're
discussing seems to me to say is that at a time of pur'anus this rule
is temporarily suspended, and the individual judgment proceeds with
the weight of this factor set to zero.

R' Zev Sero wrote:

> Clarification: I copied the word "metal" from the OP (M Cohen),
> but in fact we both meant iron.  As far as I know there is no
> inyan mentioned anywhere not to use other metals to cut the
> tzitzis. What the MA quotes from the Shaloh and Mateh Moshe is
> 1) not to use an (iron) knife, and 2) preferably to use the
> teeth (see Machtzis Hashekel for a reason to use davka the teeth).

While he was writing that (and/or while the post was in Micha's box) I was
working on my own clarification, on much the same point: The word "barzel",
which (in the context of Bemidbar 31:22) refers to one specific metal,
which I've always understood to be iron.

I just now noticed that the halachos of the Mizbe'ach (such as Rashi on
Shmos 20:22, Chinuch 40) also refers to "barzel". In this context, it is
often understood to mean "metal", and that's why the OP's mistranslation
got past me. For example, this prohibition appears as Mitzvah #40 in the
Sefer Hachinuch, and in the Feldheim translation (by Charles Wengrov),
"barzel" is consistently translated as "metal".

Another example is the practice of removing the knife from the table before
Birkas Hamazon. The first of two reasons cited by MB 180:11 is that "Barzel
shortens a person's life, and it's not right for it to be on the table
which is compared to the mizbe'ach which lengthens a person's life." This
is often quoted with "barzel" translated as "metal", and indeed, I've never
heard of anyone allowing a silver knife to remain on the table, on the
grounds that silver is not barzel. (On the other hand, see Shmirat Shabbat
K'hilchata 54 footnote 158 if you are wondering why this applies only to a
knife made of barzel, and not to a fork made of barzel.)

However, the halacha seems to be that the stones of the Mizbe'ach MAY be
cut with a metal other than iron: Torah Temimah #131 there seems to says
that the Mizbe'ach could be cut with nechoshes (copper? brass? bronze?).

In any case, I still stand by my main point, which is that barzel is
avoided for the mizbe'ach, and for the table which is like the mizbe'ach,
but I can't think of any reason to apply this to the cutting of tzitzis
strings or tefillin retzuos, unless one wants to say that -- like the
mizbe'ach -- mitzvos in general prolong life, and barzel shortens it.

It might be worth noting that although Mishne Brurah 11:61 does advise
biting the strings, and not to use a knife, he does not say anything about
"barzel" or give any other reason.

But Kaf Hachaim 11:17 gives *two* reasons to use the teeth rather than a
knife. The first quotes the pasuk about barzel, and the second points out
that the 32 teeth correspond to the 32 strings of the tzitzis.

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
Virginia Drivers:
(DEC 2014): New "Rule" Leaves Virginia Drivers Furious...
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/548fa5f6dc56725f632aast02vuc

On 12/15/2014 10:23 PM, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
> It might be worth noting that although Mishne Brurah 11:61 does
> advise biting the strings, and not to use a knife, he does not
> say anything about "barzel" or give any other reason.

MB is just quoting the MA, who is in turn quoting the Shaloh and Mateh
Moshe, who say it's because iron is not allowed on the mizbeach.

> But Kaf Hachaim 11:17 gives*two*  reasons to use the teeth rather
> than a knife. The first quotes the pasuk about barzel, and the
> second points out that the 32 teeth correspond to the 32 strings
> of the tzitzis.

He's presumably quoting Machtzis Hashekel, or else *his* source,
whatever it is.

My point here is that the MA and Machtzis Hashekel are on the page
of the Shulchan Aruch, so they should be quoted in preference to
specialist sefarim that people may not have.



Re: Iron v other metals.

OTOH the metal that "earned" the merit that we now use metal for
milah was not iron but copper.  So now I wonder why we use iron
rather than copper for this.

Given that everything except the oil was Tomei, how did they avoid being
metameh the oil on day one at least?

R' Isaac Balbin asked
>>> Given that everything except the oil was Tomei, how did they avoid being
metameh the oil on day one at least?

I asked this in shul a few days ago. The oil was in a kli cheres, which
only becomes tamei from the inside. One can handle it from the outside, and
the contents remain tahor, even when pouring into the menorah. Or so I was
told.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
The #1 Worst Carb Ever?
Click to Learn #1 Carb that Kills Your Blood Sugar (Don't Eat This!)
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/549054556879554555f23st01vuc

Along similar lines, a friend asked me about the 8 spear menorah and
tum'ah. I suggested the balebatishe answer that a winning army could well
have 8 unused spears. And this fits Megillas Taanis (pereq 9). However,
seeing the Pesiqta Rabasi (pereq 2) inside, the spears were found.

According to PR they just stuck lamps on the tops of the spears. The MT
has them covered with wood. So, it's hard to argue they were metaher
by having been melted down and reshaped. (Back to my balebatishe answer.)

But meanwhile, when looking up the derashah that says that a menorah of
any metal would be kosher for the BHMQ (Menachos 28a) I saw that the gemara
is quite firm to use the kelal uperat ukelal only for the ke'ein haperat
on the zahav, but the miqshah, that it be from one piece, is mandatory.

So, how did they use 8 spears?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It isn't what you have, or who you are, or where
mi...@aishdas.org        you are,  or what you are doing,  that makes you
http://www.aishdas.org   happy or unhappy. It's what you think about.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Dale Carnegie

In response to R'Micha: I'm positing that for those who assert "universal
HP", that uHP is suspended "b'sha'ah shenit'nah r'shus lamashchis l'chavel".

All the best from
*Michael Poppers* * Elizabeth, NJ, USA
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On 12/16/2014 04:26 PM, Michael Poppers wrote:
> In response to R'Micha: I'm positing that for those who assert "universal HP", that uHP is suspended "b'sha'ah shenit'nah r'shus lamashchis l'chavel".

This is where we came in.   That was the original proposition, which
RMB and I rejected, for the reasons we gave.  You're just reasserting
it without giving any argument for it.    As I see it, even if it
were easy to suppose a suspension of uHP, there's no *reason* to do so.

On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 09:17am EST, R M Cohen asked on Areivim
: Someone lent me an interesting (older) sefer on Age of Universe issue
: Dinosaurs, flood, etc

: Mysteries of the Creation
: Rabbi Dovid Brown z'l
: Feldheim 1997

: It has impressive hoskomos from R Moshe, R Ruderman, and R Yaakov Weinberg 

: Has anyone read it, and does anyone have any comments on his m'halech?

That mehalekh, in a nushell, from pg 28:
    We will attempt only to derive from the Torah what the Torah has to
    teach us on the subjects we will pursue, the origin and structure of
    the physical world. Therefore, let us not object that we are taking
    from science what we wish and rejecting what we choose. The charge
    is true. We accept whatever we find verified in the Torah shebiKsav
    and the Torah shebaal Pe. We reject any theory inconsistent with them.

If this methodology were consistent, we would have to adopt Persian or
Copernican astronomy, or one of their predecessors. We would have to
reject heliocentrism and relativistic rejection of picking any center,
because "shemesh beGiv'on dom".

It means picking Rabbeinu Tam's understanding of Rebbe, that when
he says on this topic "nir'in divreihem midivreinu" Rebbe means
the Copernican universe only looks more correct. As opposed to the
rishonim who understand "nir'in" in its usual idiomatic sense of the
idea is derived. Or the Gra's understanding (in his commentary on Seifer
haYetzirah) who says the Greeks only look more correct because it only
looks like we're talking about science rather than using scientific
ideas as meshalim for spiritual ones. (See also Maharal Be'er haGolah
ch. 6 and the Ramcha'ls Maamar Agados for similar ideas.)

Anyway, RDB takes the resulting Natural Philosophy to give naturalistic
explanations for nissim. For example, pg 101:
    How can water cover the entire world and not pour into Eretz
    Yisroel? With what we now know (i.e., from the previous discussion),
    we can readily see that according to Rabbi Yochanan, by the action of
    boiling magma in the interior of the earth, G-d raised Eretz Yisroel
    above the surrounding waters. After the mabbul (flood) the magma,
    and the land, subsided.

I'm really not sure whom the result would satisfy.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             You will never "find" time for anything.
mi...@aishdas.org        If you want time, you must make it.
http://www.aishdas.org                     - Charles Buxton
Fax: (270) 514-1507

There are a number of videos that are supposedly related to Chanukah 
on the Internet.  Personally,  I find these videos  to go against 
what the Maccabees fought for.  They fought for the elimination of 
secularism and the supremacy of Yahadus.

I suggest that people take the time to read 
<http://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/hellenism_judaism.pdf>Kislev_II 
Hellenism and Judaism  (Collected Writings II) by RSRH.  This 
brilliant essay gives real insight into what Chanukah is supposed to 
be all about.

A Freilichen Chanukah!

YL
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True but I believe that these videos are meant to be relatable to Jews that
have already been "hellenized." If they bring more Jews back on the derech
then it's only a good thing. Happy Chanukah!


- Rafi Hecht

> On Dec 17, 2014, at 11:25 AM, Prof. Levine <llev...@stevens.edu> wrote:
> 
> There are a number of videos that are supposedly related to Chanukah
> on the Internet.  Personally,  I find these videos  to go against what
> the Maccabees fought for.	They fought for the elimination of
> secularism and the supremacy of Yahadus. 
> 
> I suggest that people take the time to read Kislev_II Hellenism and
> Judaism  (Collected Writings II) by RSRH.	This brilliant essay gives
> real insight into what Chanukah is supposed to be all about.
> 
> A Freilichen Chanukah!
> 
> YL 
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> The Chanukah miracle teaches us how to put the God given spiritual power within
> us to work for our own welfare and for the advancement of our fellow human 
> beings. The Maccabees were fully aware of God?s presence among them. As they
> rose to the defense of their people and their faith, they reaffirmed their complete
> trust in divine power, following the example of the Psalmist who proclaims: ?Some
> trust in chariots and some in horses; but we will make mention of the name of the
> Lord, our God. They are bowed down and fallen, but we are risen and stand 
> upright.? (20:8-9).
> 
> Instead of dwelling upon the spiritual meaning of life, many worship the idol of form 
> and crass materialism. During the last several decades, gigantic houses of worship 
> have sprung up. Let us remember, however, that the greatness of a building doesn?t 
> lie in the beauty of its architecture, but in the spirit that dwells therein. Many huge 
> buildings are unfortunately devoid of the spirit of the Almighty. This is nothing new; 
> it seems that Isaiah faced a similar problem in his own time, when people merely 
> worshipped the form and had become oblivious of the content of life: humility, 
> compassion, love, truth and harmony. 
> 
> Thus speaks the Lord: The heaven is My throne, and the earth is My footstool.
> Where is the house that you may build unto Me and where is the place that may
> be My resting Place? For all these things has My hands made, and so all these
> things came to be, speaks the Lord. But on this man will I look, even unto him 
> that is poor and of contrite spirit and trembles at My word.  
> Isaiah 66:1-2
> 
> We can all fall prey to a similar syndrome. We can focus too much
> on the notes and forget the composition. The entire history of Judaism is a 
> manifestation of the Jews indomitable spiritual strength, stemming from his or 
> her belief in the pre-eminence of the spiritual over the material, of right over might.
> Rabbi Hammuna, eminent Talmudic teacher, reaffirms the Jewish belief in the 
> superiority of the spirit when the prayer proclaims: Lord, may it be Thy will to place
> us on the side of light. (Berachot 17a

> The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
   Author Unknown

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Do we first light the Menorah or make Havdalah on Motzai Shabbos 
Chanuka? Not a recent question, this situation of competing halachic 
principles has been the basis of the centuries-old debate regarding 
which mitzvah has priority and should therefore be performed first. 
In other words, on Motzai Shabbos Chanuka this annual halachic 
dispute, simmering since the time of the Rishonim, really heats up...

To find out what to do, see the full article: 
"<https://go.madmimi.com/redirects/1418893217
-13e07e56b82544c850ef88d7b1eaa553-f868e57?pa=27057306460>Insights 
Into Halacha: The Chanuka Candle / Havdalah Hullabaloo".

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