Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 167

Sat, 13 Dec 2014

• 1. Re: Tal Umattar (Micha Berger)
• 2. cutting tephillin retzuos (M Cohen)
• 3. Re: vav-yud-shin-quf ()
• 4. Re: ziyun-vav-dalet (David Wacholder)
• 5. tying shel yad (M Cohen)
• 6. Ten Minute Halacha - The Tropicana Controversy - Rabbi Aryeh Lebowitz - (YUTorah) (Prof. Levine)
• 7. Re; Puns in the Torah (David and Esther Bannett)
• 8. Re: Re; Puns in the Torah (Lisa Liel)
• 9. Re: Re; Puns in the Torah (Zev Sero)
• 10. Re: Re; Puns in the Torah (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: Re; Puns in the Torah (Kenneth Miller)
• 12. "Bein Adam le-Havrutato? Arguments and Insults in Halakhic Literature." by Sam Dratch in YU's Kol Hamevaser (Prof. Levine)
• 13. resource limitations on mitzvot (Rich, Joel)
• 14. Re: [Areivim] building the third temple (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: building the third temple (Eli Turkel)
• 16. Re: building the third temple (Zev Sero)

On Mon, Dec 08, 2014 at 04:45:59PM -0500, Avi Goldstein via Avodah wrote:
: First, you may be right and I may be crazy, but I am uncertain how you
: know that in Abaye's day, Rav Adda's calculation was broadly accepted,
: especially since nowhere in the Gemara is that calculation attributed
: to Rav Adda!

Rav Adda's tequfah is the Metonic Cycle -- our system of ibur hashanah
-- exactly. It assumes 19 years is 235 molads. There is no difference
between speaking about our standard calendar and use of tequfas R'
Adda. Abayei telling benei Bavel that even though we're now on a
caculated calendar, that should continue with YT Sheini means he knew
tequfas R' Adda. Which means that he knew that tequfas Shemu'el would
be off by more than an hour by the second Birkhas hChamah -- and yet
decided it was "good enough" anyway.

: But even if you are correct, I don't see how it makes a difference. For
: the purposes of intercalation, we could use Shmuel's calendar instead
: of Rav Adda's. The difference in the error is not enough to impact the
: yamim tovim for thousands of years!

Not sure about your math there. The difference amounts to one day in
less than 315 years (My math:  1/315 < 365.25 - 365.246822,  where
365.25 = days per Julian year; 365.246822 = days per Jewish year.)

: And again, you keep talking about my "assumption" that Birkat HaChamah
: is supposed to pinpoint a specific time and you argue that I am wrong.
: Unfortunately, the timing of the brachah is depicted as reflecting the
: exact time of teliyas hame'oros...

No, it reflects a reminder of teliyas hame'oros.

And I'm still not sure whether we're talking about the sun's physical
astonomical location, or its astrological force, since the gemara
speaks in terms of the latter.

: Finally, regardless of how uncomfortable this may be, we can't prove that
: Shmuel was baki in astronomy simply because he says so. He certainly
: believed he was expert, but just as we are aware of other scientific
: errors in the Gemara (despite the fact that the tannaim and amoraim
: believed themselves to be correct), so it seems evident that Shmuel erred.

We're not talking about whether or not he erred, but whether or not
he knew less astronomy than the peers who nicknamed him "astonomer".
He knew he was using an estimate, Abayei knew he was using an estimate,
and Abayei knew enough to calculate that the estimate wouldn't meet his
own criterion by the second time it came up. That's enough to rule out
accident, and require we rethink what it is they intended.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "The worst thing that can happen to a
mi...@aishdas.org        person is to remain asleep and untamed."
http://www.aishdas.org          - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "The worst thing that can happen to a
mi...@aishdas.org        person is to remain asleep and untamed."
http://www.aishdas.org          - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm
Fax: (270) 514-1507

The m'b is machmir lchatchila not to cut tzitis with metal
(although the connection between tzitis and mizbeach is unclear to me)

Does this issue also apply to cutting tephillin retzuos?

Thanks, mc
mco...@touchlogic.com

 
From: Micha Berger via Avodah  <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>

So, when RnTK writes:
> In  addition to the multiple levels of meaning in the words of the
> Torah,  there is also attention paid to the very sound of the words --
> i.e., to  the beauty and esthetic aspect of the Torah's language.

While I'm  inclined to agree, I don't find it sufficient to answer the
question. Why did  the RBSO pick bedavqa these words to create poetic
beauty? The fact is our  attention is being drown to the words because
of their poetic sound, and that  too must have a lesson to extract.

-- 
Micha  Berger              
mi...@aishdas.org         





>>>>>
 
There is a possible clue in the wording of the pesukim (Ber  29:10-11) to 
the connection between Yakov's watering the sheep ("vayashk")  and his 
kissing Rochel ("vayishak"), besides the obvious similarity of  sound.  
 
As RMB says, that similarity must be intended to draw our attention to some 
 connection between those two actions.  The possible clue is this:  the  
pasuk says, "When Yakov saw Rochel the daughter of Lavan THE BROTHER OF HIS  
MOTHER and the sheep of Lavan THE BROTHER OF HIS MOTHER....he rolled off the  
stone and watered the sheep of Lavan THE BROTHER OF HIS MOTHER.  And Yakov  
kissed Rochel."
 
There is a poignant undercurrent of emotion here -- Yakov's longing for his 
 mother and his home, from which he has been exiled.  
 
He may have foreseen that he would never see his mother again,  and he 
presumably knew that Rochel was his zivug, and he certainly foresaw  that he was 
going to lose Rochel, that she was going to die -- Rashi says that's  why 
he cried.  The burst of strength that let him remove the heavy stone  from 
the well, and the energy with which he hastened to water Lavan's sheep,  came 
from the same place that the kiss came from -- love for his family, for his  
mother's family, love and longing for home.  
 
That is also (it seems to me) another reason why he wept after he  kissed 
Rochel -- she was family and he longed for his family back home.  In  fact I 
always thought it was the /main/ reason, and it seemed to me that Rashi  had 
overlooked the obvious emotion of that moment of Yakov's first encounter  
with his mother's family.  But maybe Rashi thought it was so obvious it  
didn't need to be pointed out, and only meant to bring an /additional/ reason  
for Yakov's tears.
 
 
Of course Lavan turned out to be more like an Esav kind of brother, but  
that's another story.
 

 
When I meet someone who knew my parents a'h or even more so, when I see a  
relative of theirs whom I have not seen in a long time, someone who knew 
them  and remembers them, I feel a rush of longing for my parents and also a 
rush of  affection for that person who shares that connection.  Yakov felt 
something  similar.  I have always seen a poignancy and longing in these 
pesukim  -- his mother's brother, his mother's brother, his mother's brother.  He  
kissed Rochel, and he wept.
 
 

--Toby  Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


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Milon Gur page 232 has z-w-d, as Meizid plotting and as heating or cooking.

ibid Page 227 has Z-B-d , also in Arabic, giving present or a portion. In
Ben Sira to unite or make into one.

Rav Sa'adya Gaon's Tikanta Shabbat uses only Tanach vocabulary as is his
wont.
"To--ameha Chayyim Zevadeimo" - those who savor pleasures of Shabbat
are rewarded with a sizeable portion of life!

-- 
David Wacholder

Email: dwachol...@gmail.com
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Does anyone have a diagram (or location on the web) of how to tie the shel
yad 
with the knot that holds the kesher next to the bayit 

(without needing a piece of gid etc)

Thanks, mc
mco...@touchlogic.com

Listen at http://tinyurl.com/nrlj732


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re: the comment about puns:  <<There are many examples of puns in the Torah.  One that we say every
day is "Va`avadtem elohim acherim ... va'avadtem meheira".>>


Methinks this is a pun only for those who don't know the difference in pronunciation between an alef and an 'ayyin.


David

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On 12/10/2014 12:05 PM, David and Esther Bannett via Avodah wrote:
> re: the comment about puns:  <<There are many examples of puns in the Torah.  One that we say every
> day is "Va`avadtem elohim acherim ... va'avadtem meheira".>>
>
>
> Methinks this is a pun only for those who don't know the difference in pronunciation between an alef and an 'ayyin.
>
And in fact, such people, when they get to "u'l'ovdo b'chol levavchem" 
are treading into some serious chiruf and giduf.

Lisa

On 12/10/2014 01:05 PM, David and Esther Bannett via Avodah wrote:
> re: the comment about puns:
  
>>  There are many examples of puns in the Torah.  One that we say every
>> day is "Va`avadtem elohim acherim ... va'avadtem meheira".>>

> Methinks this is a pun only for those who don't know the difference
> in pronunciation between an alef and an 'ayyin.

Why do you think that?

On 12/10/2014 01:46 PM, Lisa Liel via Avodah wrote:
> On 12/10/2014 12:05 PM, David and Esther Bannett via Avodah wrote:
>> re: the comment about puns:

>>> There are many examples of puns in the Torah.  One that we say every
>>> day is "Va`avadtem elohim acherim ... va'avadtem meheira".

>> Methinks this is a pun only for those who don't know the difference
>> in pronunciation between an alef and an 'ayyin.

> And in fact, such people, when they get to "u'l'ovdo b'chol
> levavchem" are treading into some serious chiruf and giduf.

On the contrary, those to whom the two sound exactly the same are immune
from such concerns.  It's only those who do pronounce them differently
who have to be careful to get it right.

R' David Bannett wrote:

> re: the comment about puns:  <<There are many examples of puns
> in the Torah.  One that we say every day is "Va`avadtem elohim
> acherim ... va'avadtem meheira".>>
>
> Methinks this is a pun only for those who don't know the difference
> in pronunciation between an alef and an 'ayyin.

I disagree. A pun uses words having similar sounds, but the sounds do not
need to be identical. Wikipedia's article "pun" gives exactly one example
in the opening paragraph:

> "Camping is intense." (in tents)

One could easily argue that the sound of "tense" differs from "tents", just
as the sound of an alef differs from an ayin. (Those who think that it is
only moderns who pronounce them similarly, please see Megilla 24b.) Thus, I
think RDB's example is a legitimate pun even for those who do pronounce the
aleph and ayin differently; even they hear the similarity and understand
the pun.

More than that, it is my opinion that there are some puns which Chazal
explicitly label as such, by use of the phrase "al tikray". A literal
understanding of the words "al tikray" can too easily give the impression
that the text is being changed, and I would much prefer for the translation
to use the word "pun". For example: "Halichos" is a pun; it alludes to
"halachos". "Banayich" is a pun; it alludes to "bonayich".

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
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Sam Dratch, a sophomore at YU and son of R. Marc Dratch, published an
article in the latest edition of the student newspaper Kol HaMevaser,
"Bein Adam le-Havrutato? Arguments and Insults in Halakhic Literature."


[T]he sheer existence of insults in halakhic literature raises
questions. We struggle to comprehend how two colleagues, let alone two
talmidei hakhamim, could insult each other in such a way. Specifically,
people who insult each other or call each other names are transgressing
up to three prohibitions; namely, ona'at devarim, leshon hara, and
embarrassing someone in public. This final prohibition should apply
here as well due to the public nature of these interactions. In light
of these prohibitions, the difficult conclusion arises that the Tannaim
and Amoraim were violating halakha as they were deciding it.

However, such a conclusion is unacceptable to us students of these great
transmitters of halakha and mesorah. It is almost senseless to claim
that the sages cared so little about halakha that they would blatantly
and publicly violate it. Moreover, these insults are mostly found in
debates over deciding halakha; if one's goal is to have his own halakhic
logic or theory followed, then breaking halakha to accomplish this goal
is both hypocritical and counterproductive. Thus, the question of "how
can the sages speak like this" transforms from a rhetorical and critical
question to a literal halakhic question that cannot be simply dismissed.

Click <http://www.kolhamevaser.com/2014/11/bei
n-adam-le-havrutato-arguments-and-insults-in-halakhic-literature>
there to read the article.

http://tinyurl.com/kdsteak

YL

Anyone ever look into why we say you only spend 20% of your wealth to
complete a positive mitzvah but spend everything to avoid violating a
negative one? The "source" seems to be "logic" of comparing passive vs.
active violations, but I'm wondering why, especially since a positive
mitzvah is doche a negative one.....


KT
Joel Rich

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On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 12:08pm IST, R Eli Turkel replied on Areivim
to a news story about a replica of Shelomo's bayis as understood by
a Brazilian Xian:
:> Although it does not include every detail that the original Temple of
:> Solomon had, its blueprint is similar but decked with modern luxuries.

: I assume that when the third temple is built it will have modern
: conveniences like plumbling/bathrooms perhaps electric lights and maybe
: even airconditioning/heating

I've discussed the idea of heating the floors in bayis shelishi in
the past. Add that with current knowledge since the Atkins Diet about
how to care for a meat-heavy diet, and the kohanim might not need a
specialist next time around.

I also presume electric lighting, passive element microphones for
the levitic orchestra, Haqhel, etc... Bullet-proof bullet trains to
the nearest ir miqlat, writ from BD required for entry.

Or their successors, lo aleinu that it takes long enough for technology
to advance.

But... the bathrooms would have to be outside the azarah. This is a
siddur issue. Most nusachos quote the version of the Y-mi where R'
Shimon b Gamliel explains "she'ein machnisim mei raglayim bamiqdash
mipenei hakavod", whereas the Gra's siddur (and some manuscripts of Y-mi
Pe'ah) has R' Shimon b Elazar and the word "ba'aZarah". I presume that
the Gra's issue is that "miqdash" is far too broad; by default it would
include all of Y-m.

So I think the bathrooms would have to be at the cheil and/or beyond
the soreg. You need facilities beyond the soreg either way for nakhri
worshippers.

(For ease, here is a floor plan
http://www.teaneckshuls.org/daf/beis-hamikdash/BeisHamikdash.pdf

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
mi...@aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
http://www.aishdas.org         - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok
Fax: (270) 514-1507

> ... the bathrooms would have to be outside the azarah. This is a
> siddur issue.

There were bathrooms already there underground.
I was only suggesting the installation of modern bathrooms in the existing
places. Of course thgis would involve putting in pipes etc. underground

-- 
Eli Turkel

On 12/12/2014 12:56 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> But... the bathrooms would have to be outside the azarah. [...]
> So I think the bathrooms would have to be at the cheil and/or beyond
> the soreg.

Not at all.  They just have to be downstairs in the basement,
where the Cohanim's bathroom was already in the 2nd BHMK.



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