Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 163

Wed, 03 Dec 2014

• 1. Re: An IDF Soldier Asks Rabbi Yosef Rimon An Amazing Question ()
• 2. Re: Tal Umattar (Avi Goldstein)
• 3. Re: Tal Umattar (Zev Sero)
• 4. Re: Tal Umattar (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Limited mabul (Avi Goldstein)
• 6. Re: Tal Umattar and Birkat HaChamah (Zev Sero)
• 7. An IDF Soldier Asks Rabbi Yosef Rimon An Amazing Question (Eli Turkel)
• 8. Re: An IDF Soldier Asks Rabbi Yosef Rimon An Amazing Question (Kenneth Miller)
• 9. Re: Tal Umattar (Avi Goldstein)
• 10. Re: Tal Umattar (Micha Berger)
• 11. (no subject) (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)
• 12. Giving Gifts During The Non-Jewish Holiday Season (Prof. Levine)
• 13. Re: Tal Umattar and Birkat HaChamah (Simon Montagu)

 

From: Lisa Liel via Avodah  <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
>
>> If the homeowner returns  someday and pays his electricity bill, the
>> soldier will have stolen  from the homeowner. If the bill is never paid,
>> then the soldier will  have stolen from the electric company. Li nir'eh
>> it's assur. Did I  miss something?
>

>> Since the owner will almost certainly  never pay this bill, is there an 
issue of stealing from the electric  company?  Because that's us; not 
them.  Shalal wouldn't  apply.<<

Lisa




>>>>>
 
If the homeowner is coming back and will pay the bill then I don't know  
what the halacha is, though we're talking about only a few cents, an amount 
that  cannot even be adjudicated in beis din (I don't think).
 
But let's assume the owner is never coming back to his home.  I  believe 
that Israel supplies electricity to Gaza and the electric company is  owned by 
the government of Israel.  Therefore for a soldier to charge his  phone in 
an Arab's house is no different than charging his phone at his army  base.  
In either case, the Israeli government is paying for the  electricity.  I 
think it is commonly accepted that soldiers on duty  can charge their phones, 
shavers or whatever.
 
When my mother a'h was in the hospital (in Israel) and I stayed there with  
her, I did wonder if it was OK for me to charge my laptop in the wall there 
but  since everyone did it and no one objected, I assumed that such use of  
electricity is considered a routine part of hospital expenses.  I have also 
 had occasion to charge my phone in an American hospital and it seemed 
similarly  to be a routine thing to do, certainly absorbed in the general 
expense of  running a hospital.  It is still a niggling question, though.   If  
you're a patient there, you can certainly use electricity (is that  correct?). 
 If you're visiting a patient, probably  likewise. (True?)
 

--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


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On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 9:02 PM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:
> At the same point in *what*?   Surely the sun comes back to the same point
> every year.  If you want it to be coming back to the same point at the same
> time of day, then according to the highly simplified Shmuel model it would
> do that every four years.  But we don't say the bracha every four years;
> instead we wait until the model tells us that it returned to the same point
> at the same time of day, *on the same day of the week*....

I did not want to get into an extended explanation of the astronomy. To do
so would cause us to have to reckon with significant additional issues.
Simply stated, we want to say Birkat HaChamah when the sun is at the
same point, on the same day and at the same hour, as it was at Creation.
Using Shmuel's calculation, this occurs every 28 years; the problem is
that Shmuel's calculation is wrong.

On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 8:47 PM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:
> If you're OK with the inaccuracy in R Adda's year, then you should note
> that his number is *closer to Shmuel's number than to the correct one*.

True, but what difference does this make in our discussion? If you are
saying that we could have used Shmuel's year to intercalate, you are
correct. The divergence from the true year is greater, and so Pesach would
fall in the summer some years earlier, but practically speaking, we could
use Shmuel's  calendar instead of Rav Adda's.

-- 
Avi Goldstein
Five Towns Nissan

On 12/02/2014 05:55 PM, Avi Goldstein via Avodah wrote:
> Zev, with all do respect, I believe you are wrong on both counts. As
> far as Shmuel goes, there is no reason to believe that he did not
> mean what he said. It was commonly held in the ancient world that the
> year is 365.25 days long.

Source, please. I do not believe this was the case, at least among
astronomers, which Shmuel was.

> Re Rav Adda (actually, while this is called Rav Adda's view, nowhere
> in the Gemara does he state that this is the year's length), he did
> not give an estimate at all! He gave a precise calculation of 365
> days, five hours, 55 minutes and some seconds. The actual tropical
> year is 365/5/49 and some seconds. How can you say that Rav Adda's
> number is approximate? It is so detailed that had he known the true
> value, he should have given that value instead!

Because it is *not* a precise calculation, it is an *approximation*,
in fact it is Meton's approximation. It is 235/19 months, that is all.
A nice round fraction, just like 1461/4 days. There is no more reason
to suppose that he meant it to be exact than that Shmuel meant his to
be exact. It's a rule of thumb for calculating leap years, close enough
to accurate that the difference wouldn't matter for several centuries.

> For our purposes, however, Rav Adda's calculation suffices to
> calculate when to intercalate: seven leap years in a 19-year cycle.
> The six-minute difference will not affect us for many thousands of
> years, when, if we continue using Rav Adda's number, Pesach will
> occur in the summer, and so we would have to adjust the calendar at
> that time; however, certainly Mashiach will be here long before this
> becomes an issue.

If you're OK with the inaccuracy in R Adda's year, then you should note
that his number is *closer to Shmuel's number than to the correct one*.


On 12/02/2014 06:17 PM, Avi Goldstein via Avodah wrote:
>>   Why?  When *should* birkat hachama be said?

> This is a very difficult question, and I don't have the answer. In
> the following, I assume that there was a teliyas hame'oros the night
> of the fourth day of Creation. By using Shmuel's 365.25-day year, we
> arrive at a point, every 28 years, when the sun is at the same point
> where it was at teliyas hame'oros.

At the same point in *what*? Surely the sun comes back to the same point
every year. If you want it to be coming back to the same point at the
same time of day, then according to the highly simplified Shmuel model
it would do that every four years. But we don't say the bracha every
four years; instead we wait until the model tells us that it returned to
the same point at the same time of day, *on the same day of the week*.
Astronomically speaking there is no such thing as a week. The 7-day
week exists only in the Torah, not in nature. (This was what led the
Kuzari to assert that since every culture has a seven-day week they
must have once know the Torah. His logic is sound, but his premise was
mistaken; cultures that had no known contact with the Torah did *not*
use 7-day weeks.) So why do we care what day of the week it is?
Because that makes Birkat Hachama a rare event, but not so rare that
it never actually happens, like Chacham Harazim. A person can expect
to say Birkat Hachama several times in his lifetime, and yet each time
is special. Using Meton's (or R Adda's) number, or the correct number,
would mean Birkat Hachama is never said in most people's lifetime,
and when it did occur hardly anyone would know about it.

The length of a year in days is an irrational number.
The length of a year in months is an irrational number.
The length of a month in days is also an irrational number.

Add to that tidal forces and the slowing down of the earth's spin
and the moon's orbit, so that the day and the month aren't even
constants.

(For that matter, the continuum is of an ordinality of at least alef-1,
whereas the ordinality of the set of rational numbers is alef-null. If
the ratio between two naturally occuring numbers were rational, it would
point to common cause with near cetainty. The probability of such a
coincidence is literally infintesimal. But back to the topic...)

Because there is no possible set of fractions one can use to compute
a calendar, every calendar is an approximation. The question is how
to choose an approximation; more precision means more complexity, and
the odds the system won't be maintained. Less precision means more
drift over the centuries. Each year is pretty close; but the cumulative
error is building.

I doubt Shemu'el or R' Ada expected that there would be noone around to
tweak away the error by now. You don't even need to switch algorithms;
you just need to insert exceptions. No big deal -- if we had the
Sanhedrin. Again, I doubt they expected it would take this long.

Therefore, the answer to the question of which approximation to use
is different for the calendar than it is for Tal uMatar or Birkhas
haChamah.

BTW, Birchas haChamah is based on astrology, not astronomy. It is when
Tequfas Shemu'el is Tues evening (Or laYom Revi'i) during the mazal of
Shabetai (Saturn). And it's a birkhas re'iyah. It doesn't require
scientific precision, it needs to be a marker that reminds us Who is
the Oseh ma'aseh bereishis.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Despair is the worst of ailments. No worries
mi...@aishdas.org        are justified except: "Why am I so worried?"
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Jon Baker wrote:
"posit it was adapted from Gilgamesh by Hashem for His purposes
it's a myth connecting meat consumption with morality"

Jon, are you saying that the Mabul did not occur? I hope I am not
understanding you correctly!


-- 
Avi Goldstein
Five Towns Nissan
Cell: 516-526-1925
Fax: 516-371-0498
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On 12/02/2014 09:53 PM, Avi Goldstein wrote:
> Simply stated, we want to say Birkat HaChamah when the sun is at the
> same point, on the same day and at the same hour, as it was at
> Creation.

Why?  Same time of day I understand, but what's significant about the same
day of the week?  The sun and the whole universe look exactly the same whether
it's  a Wednesday or a Thursday.  The only significance of the day of week is
to us, because we keep count for Shabbos.  So the sun coming back to that point
on a Wednesday isn't a fact about the sun, it's a fact about us.  Why then is
it relevant to the bracha?

My answer is that if we didn't insist on the same day of week it would come out
every four years, and that's too frequent.


> True, but what difference does this make in our discussion? If you
> are saying that we could have used Shmuel's year to intercalate, you
> are correct. The divergence from the true year is greater, and so
> Pesach would fall in the summer some years earlier, but practically
> speaking, we could use Shmuel's calendar instead of Rav Adda's.

The point is that Rav Adda/Meton's number is simply a closer rule of
thumb, a fraction that's easy to work with but better than Shmuel's.

You seem not to appreciate that decimal arithmetic was *unknown*.  They didn't
have the Indian ("Arabic") digital system, so they couldn't deal with numbers
like 0.2422.   Everything had to be expressed as fractions.  And 235/19 is a
fairly easy fraction for those accustomed to arithmetic to handle, but not for
every ballaboss.  1/4 is a fraction every ballaboss can handle.


> I do know people who made the bracha near the ocean; having not seen
> the ocean for a month, they had in mind the ocean as well, since the
> bracha made for seeing the ocean after 30 days is also oseh maaseh
> bereishis.

Isn't it She'asa Es Hayam Hagadol?

<<How about the concept of common usage.

I have never seen anyone say "don't plug in your device or you owe me
xxx for electric use".>>

I have seen a psak that if one plugs his phone in a shul he should add
money to the
shul tzedaka pushka or his dues to pay for the use of electricity.

Years ago there was a shaila asked if one can use the toilet paper in a
yeshiva to blow ones nose since that is not the use the yeshiva intended. I
assume by now that the price is low enough that that question is not
relevant.

BTW is the theft is less than a perutah it sometimes can be more serious as
it cant be returned.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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R"n Toby Katz wrote:

> I have also had occasion to charge my phone in an American
> hospital and it seemed similarly to be a routine thing to do,
> certainly absorbed in the general expense of running a hospital.
> It is still a niggling question, though.  If  you're a patient
> there, you can certainly use electricity (is that correct?).
> If you're visiting a patient, probably likewise. (True?)

Yes, I'd agree. Hospitals want the visitors to be comfortable to a certain
degree. For example, I can't imagine there's be a problem with a visitor
turning on a light in the room, even if the light is needed only for the
visitor and not for the patient. I've also had occasions where the staff
offers the visitor a drink, or a snack, and maybe even a full meal. In this
context, it seems to me that charging one's phone is not merely "not
objectionable", but a normal form of hospitality extended by the hospital.
(Heh, I just noticed the pun.) If any accountants want to get over-niggling
about it, these expenses can be logged to the advertising account - this
sort of welcoming attitude encourages patients to choose this hospital in
the future.

All of the above is intended to underscore the very different situation, in
which the invading military helps themselves to the spoils of war. The
soldier can do this if it is a halachic war and legitimate shalal (as RMB
described), or for pikuach nefesh (as I described previously), but I can't
imagine any other heter.

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
Is this the WORST carb ever?
This 1 carb is HARMING your metabolism & accelerates AGING (avoid)
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/547ef09dcbf57709d5aabst04vuc

On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 11:31 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> BTW, Birchas haChamah is based on astrology, not astronomy. It is when
> Tequfas Shemu'el is Tues evening (Or laYom Revi'i) during the mazal of
> Shabetai (Saturn). And it's a birkhas re'iyah. It doesn't require
> scientific precision, it needs to be a marker that reminds us Who is
> the Oseh ma'aseh bereishis.

I am comfortable with the notion that Birkas HaChamah is here to remind us
that Hashem is the Creator. However, if one reads the various sources that
discuss the bracha, the conclusion is inescapable that Chazal believed the
timing to be precise.
I did make the bracha three years ago, because I was willing to live with
the kashya and did not wish to separate myself from the rest of klal
Yisrael.
I do know people who made the bracha near the ocean; having not seen the
ocean for a month, they had in mind the ocean as well, since the bracha
made for seeing the ocean after 30 days is also oseh maaseh bereishis. (I
tried, but happened to see the ocean several days before the day of Birkat
HaChamah.)

-- 
Avi Goldstein
Five Towns Nissan

On Wed, Dec 03, 2014 at 12:14:22AM -0500, Avi Goldstein wrote:
: I am comfortable with the notion that Birkas HaChamah is here to remind us
: that Hashem is the Creator. However, if one reads the various sources that
: discuss the bracha, the conclusion is inescapable that Chazal believed the
: timing to be precise.

You ignored my arguments that the timing can't be precise. Therefore,
no matter what Chazal legislated, given an unforeseen long galus, there
would be drift. Moreso (as I posted a couple of days back), Chazal,
in the person of Shemuel, knew he was giving us an estimate.

To rephrase what I said then:
The same Shemuel who we name the 365.24 / 4 tequfah after is the same
Shemuel who was able to precompute the calendar for 60 years foward
despite the calendar already using a more precise estimate. Shemuel
was known for his astronomy -- he certainly knew whatever estimate was
being used for Ibur haShanah, whether precisely R' Adda's or some
predecessor. (R' Adda was a genertion younger; their lives overlapped.)

To add:
Abaye, who tells us to use this estimate for Birkhas haChamah (Berakhos
59b) post-dates Rav Adda by a century.

More recently I noted that using estimates are unvoidable, and therefore
one is always choosing between precision and ease of use. As Zev wrote,
we chose the looser estimate when it needs to be used by the masses,
and therefore precision loses to ease. And we chose a tighter estimate
for computing the calendar, which only a few in each generation need to
be capable of.

You also ignore my mentioning that Birkhas haChamah is on an astrological
event, not an astronomical one. The sun is setting the previous evening
(the start of Wed) during the mazal of Shabetai. I have little enough
idea of how Chazal's astrology worked to say whether there was drift
from astrological accuracy, and if so, how much. LAD (and I will save
Zev and Lisa's blood pressure by not pushing this point too firmlyyet
again), we are talking about perception, not empirical realities. Which
should be perfectly fine for a birkhas re'iyah even according to those
who object to my thesis that all of halakhah works that way.

After all, we could have been making this berakhah once each clear day;
we are only picking a time when the usual majesty of the sun is more
prominently brought to our attention.

Do you believe in an old universe? Do you still say "HaYom haRas Olam"
on RH *and* Birkhas haChamah? Both appear to deny scientific conclusion,
and possibly in different ways (unless you accept R' Tam's resolution).
Or do you complain about the inaccuracy there, too? If you believe the
yamim of creation are far longer than days, do you wonder about Shabbos?

Or do all commemorations need less rigor than that?

: I do know people who made the bracha near the ocean; having not seen the
: ocean for a month, they had in mind the ocean as well, since the bracha
: made for seeing the ocean after 30 days is also oseh maaseh bereishis. (I
: tried, but happened to see the ocean several days before the day of Birkat
: HaChamah.)

I find this lack of faish in the halachic process disturbing. (Extra
points for getting the movie reference.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man is capable of changing the world for the
mi...@aishdas.org        better if possible, and of changing himself for
http://www.aishdas.org   the better if necessary.
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Victor Frankl, Man's search for Meaning

RLL mentioned that Rashi alludes to a flood during Dor Haflagah. I don't
see it. Where and how? Thanks!

KT,
YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
ygbechho...@gmail.com
y...@aishdas.org
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 From http://tinyurl.com/n7m54lk

QUESTION: Is it permitted to buy a non-kosher bottle of wine in order 
to give it to a non-Jew as a gift?

QUESTION: Is it permitted to buy an assortment of non-kosher meats or 
fish in order to give it to a non-Jew as a gift?

QUESTION: Is it permitted to buy an assortment of non-kosher cheeses 
in order to give it to a non-Jew as a gift?

Please see the above URL for the answers to these questions.  YL
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On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 10:42 PM, Zev Sero via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:

> I do know people who made the bracha near the ocean; having not seen
>
>> the ocean for a month, they had in mind the ocean as well, since the
>> bracha made for seeing the ocean after 30 days is also oseh maaseh
>> bereishis.
>>
>
> Isn't it She'asa Es Hayam Hagadol?
>

Does RAG mean literally the ocean? As in, they say Hayam Hagadol for the
Mediterranean but Ma`aseh Bereishit for the Atlantic or the Pacific? That
seems like quite a hiddush, is there a aource for it?
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