Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 162

Tue, 02 Dec 2014

• 1. Re: An IDF Soldier Asks Rabbi Yosef Rimon An Amazing Question (Rich, Joel)
• 2. Re: Limited Mabul (Chayim Lando)
• 3. Re: An IDF Soldier Asks Rabbi Yosef Rimon An Amazing Question (Kenneth Miller)
• 4. Re: An IDF Soldier Asks Rabbi Yosef Rimon An Amazing Question (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: An IDF Soldier Asks Rabbi Yosef Rimon An Amazing Question (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: An IDF Soldier Asks Rabbi Yosef Rimon An Amazing Question (menucha)
• 7. Re: An IDF Soldier Asks Rabbi Yosef Rimon An Amazing Question (Saul Guberman)
• 8. Re: Limited Mabul? (Jonathan Baker)
• 9. Re: An IDF Soldier Asks Rabbi Yosef Rimon An Amazing Question (Kenneth Miller)
• 10. Re: An IDF Soldier Asks Rabbi Yosef Rimon An Amazing Question (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: An IDF Soldier Asks Rabbi Yosef Rimon An Amazing Question (Lisa Liel)
• 12. Re: An IDF Soldier Asks Rabbi Yosef Rimon An Amazing Question (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: Tal Umattar (Avi Goldstein)
• 14. Re: Tal Umattar and Birkat HaChamah (Avi Goldstein)
• 15. Olives - Olive Oil and Chanukah (Prof. Levine)
• 16. Fwd: [Integrity] Tax Evasion (Micha Berger)

> The soldier is in an arab house in Gaza, the residents have fled. May 
> he
> charge his cellphone from the owners electricity, or is that 
> stealing?

R Yosef Rimon's point was that the question was asked, so the 
conversation
doesn't get to an answer. Li nir'eh it's obviously mutar.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
I attended a give and take recently with a young soldier and his pulpit
rabbi discussing Gaza questions.  I was struck that the rabbinic focus was
very much on the technicalities of pikuach nefesh, klachar yad....
It seems to me one of the basic dividing lines in hashkafa/psak is whether
"hilchot milchama" is largely a parallel meta-system of halacha or built
from splicing together standard individual halacha .


As a separate thought experiment it's interesting that it seems to me those
who see "Or Lagoyim"  defined as us dong our own thing and being admired
from afar are often also those who don't focus on the need for societal
answers to how do you run a closed community on shabbat etc. when certain
services are needed.

KT
Joel RIch
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Rav Gedaliah Nadel in ?????? ?? ?? ????? writes that the Mabul was limited
to the areas around Bavel which is Kidmas Eden. He explains that it was the
people living there who were taking advantage of the wonderful living
conditions to sin against Hashem and that it is illogical to assume that
people who lived elsewhere, who were innocent of wrongdoing should have
been punished as well. He maintains that phrases such as ???? ????? ?? ???
???? ???? are coming from the perspective of a person living there and what
is to him his entire world and do not mean the entire world.
He brings a few supports to his position. One of them is where the Gemara
says that if someone is Noder from the "Pras" he is forbidden to drink from
all waters in the world as they all come from the Pras. Clearly, the Pras
is the source of all Middle Eastern water, but not that of many other parts
of the world. Equally clearly, he would be allowed to drink from the
Mississippi. Ergo "in the world" refers only to a localized area and not
literally the whole world. (It would seem that one can question learning
Torah terminology from that of Chazal, but he has other sources as well CL.)
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R' Micha Berger wrote:
> Li nir'eh it's obviously mutar.

If the homeowner returns someday and pays his electricity bill, the soldier
will have stolen from the homeowner.  If the bill is never paid, then the
soldier will have stolen from the electric company. Li nir'eh it's assur. 
Did I miss something?

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
Heavy rains mean flooding
Anywhere it rains it can flood. Learn your risk. Get flood insurance.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/547df321cd57473211eaast01vuc

On 2014-12-02 12:12 pm, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
> R' Micha Berger wrote:
>> Li nir'eh it's obviously mutar.

> If the homeowner returns someday and pays his electricity bill, the
> soldier will have stolen from the homeowner. If the bill is never 
> paid,
> then the soldier will have stolen from the electric company. Li 
> nir'eh
> it's assur. Did I miss something?

Why would it be more problematic than taking shalal?

I didn't think we had to respect the property rights of enemy 
non-combatants.

I could see arguing that lifnim mishuras hadin *IFF* Tzahal had to take 
over
their home because Hamas moved in against the family's will to use them 
as
human sheilds as they attacked from the roof, I would want to minimize 
their
loss. But lehalakhah? And if they wouldn't even notice the few cents 
for
your phone over loss of nearly everything they own, is it even 
meaningful
as a gesture?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

 

On 2014-12-02 2:34 pm, menucha wrote: 

>>> R' Micha Berger wrote:

>>> 
>>>> Li nir'eh it's obviously mutar.
>> Why would it be more
problematic than taking shalal?
> 
> According to my son who fought in
Tzuk Eitan this was a rare question since in general soldiers were not
allowed to enter Gaza with phones. 
> The psak that they got in terms of
property was that they could take anything which they felt would improve
their actual war effort but nothing beyond that.

Did you intend to
reply off-list? 

I don't understand the pesaq, as the line between what
helps on a personal level while at the front and what helps the actual
war effort seems indefinable. 

Besides, shalal can be taken at the end
of the war. 

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger Here is the test to
find whether your mission
mi...@aishdas.org on Earth is
finished:
http://www.aishdas.org if you're alive, it isn't.
Fax: (270)
514-1507 - Richard Bach
 
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>> R' Micha Berger wrote:
>>
>>> Li nir'eh it's obviously mutar.
>>
>
> Why would it be more problematic than taking shalal?
>
According to my son who fought in Tzuk Eitan this was a rare question 
since in general soldiers were not allowed to enter Gaza with phones.  
The psak that they got in terms of property was that they could take 
anything which they felt would improve their actual war effort but 
nothing beyond that.

menucha

On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 12:12 PM, Kenneth Miller via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
> If the homeowner returns someday and pays his electricity bill, the
> soldier will have stolen from the homeowner.  If the bill is never paid,
> then the soldier will have stolen from the electric company. Li nir'eh it's
> assur.  Did I miss something?

How about the concept of common usage.

I have never seen anyone say "don't plug in your device or you owe me
xxx for electric use".

I used to be fond of the Mediterranean refilling hypothesis, but upon 
looking for it yesterday, found that it has been discredited, since the
last full refilling of the Mediterranean basin was about 5.33 million years
ago,long before the advent of Man.  However, the same articles noted that
during the glacial periods, the sea did rise and fall about 110-120m.  So 
that could account for a local flood.  "Barbary Coast" suggests that as 
well, since we know North Africa is deeper underwater than it was 2000 
years ago - there are a number of ruins at the Nile Delta that are 
considerably underwater, so either the sea rose, or the land sank.

More likely is the Black Sea hypothesis, where the Black Sea refilled
about 5600 years ago.  It's also a lot closer to "Harei Ararat" than
the Mediterranean.  Mount Ararat itself is a volcano midway between
the Black and Caspian Seas.

The problem with this is the same as the Mediterranean hypothesis had:
it could yet be disproven, and then we're back to square one.

I can think of various theories that could help:

"we don't understand it"
posit it was adapted from Gilgamesh by Hashem for His purposes
it's a myth connecting meat consumption with morality

--
        name: jon baker              web: http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker
     address: jjba...@panix.com     blog: http://thanbook.blogspot.com

R' Micha Berger wrote:

> Why would it be more problematic than taking shalal?
> I didn't think we had to respect the property rights of enemy
> non-combatants.

I have heard discussions of whether or not Tzahal's actions can be
classified as a "milchemes mitzvah" or "milchemes reshus", but in the
absence of an actual, genuine, crowned melech, I've always presumed those
claims to be either guzma or l'chumra, to emphasize the importance of
joining and/or supporting the soldiers. Never before have I heard that the
kulos of halachic war might apply here.

#2: To rephrase a question I raised in my previous post. Let's suppose that
the Arab residents never return to pay the electricity bill for this
residence. In such a case, the soldier will have stolen from the electric
company. In these areas, is the electricity supply owned by Jews or
non-Jews?

R"n Menucha's response was:

> The psak that they got in terms of property was that they could
> take anything which they felt would improve their actual war
> effort but nothing beyond that.

It seems to me that this answer is entirely different than RMB's. This
answer does not depend on any halachos of "shalal" or "milchama". Rather,
it is a simple case of pikuach nefesh: If - and *only* if - stealing
something will help us in the war effort, then take it.

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
Heavy rains mean flooding
Anywhere it rains it can flood. Learn your risk. Get flood insurance.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/547e1ece101c21ecd75bfst03vuc

On 2014-12-02 3:18 pm, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
>> Why would it be more problematic than taking shalal? I didn't think 
>> we
>> had to respect the property rights of enemy non-combatants.
>
> I have heard discussions of whether or not Tzahal's actions can be
> classified as a "milchemes mitzvah" or "milchemes reshus", but in the
> absence of an actual, genuine, crowned melech, I've always presumed 
> those
> claims to be either guzma or l'chumra...

Rambam, Melakhim 5:1: "And what is a milchemes mitzvah? It is the war 
against
the 7 ammim, a war against Amaleiq, *ve'ezras Yisrael miyad tzar sheba 
aleihem".

I therefore believe the references to milchemes mitzvah are quite 
literal. For
discussions of this Rambam as halakhah lemaasseh, see:
http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/706592
http://www.zomet.org.il/_Uploads/dbsAttachedFiles/tm-3-106tech.pdf
http://www.vbm-torah.org/vtc/0031293.html

and RAYK Mishpat Kohein 143, Tzitz Eliezer 13:100

But rights of spoils and garrison apply to milkhemes reshus too.

While searching, I found that the Sifsei Chakhamim on Rashi Bamidbar 
31:50
says that eishes yefas to'ar is ONLY for a milkhemes reshus. Rights may
be in general more inclusive, not less.

BTW, if you think that war without an "actual, genuine, crowned melekh" 
isn't
even a milkhemes reshus, what would permit us to wage it?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On 12/2/2014 1:08 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> On 2014-12-02 12:12 pm, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
>> R' Micha Berger wrote:
>>> Li nir'eh it's obviously mutar.
>
>> If the homeowner returns someday and pays his electricity bill, the
>> soldier will have stolen from the homeowner. If the bill is never paid,
>> then the soldier will have stolen from the electric company. Li nir'eh
>> it's assur. Did I miss something?
>
> Why would it be more problematic than taking shalal?
>
> I didn't think we had to respect the property rights of enemy 
> non-combatants.

Since the owner will almost certainly never pay this bill, is there an 
issue of stealing from the electric company?  Because that's us; not 
them.  Shalal wouldn't apply.

Lisa

On 2014-12-02 5:00 pm, Lisa Liel via Avodah wrote:
> Since the owner will almost certainly never pay this bill, is there 
> an
> issue of stealing from the electric company? Because that's us; not
> them. Shalal wouldn't apply.

Actually, the owner may or may not pay his bill, but the party he would
pay is Palestine Electric Company/Gaza Power Generating Company 
(www.ppgc-ps.com).
Israel provides 62% of that power, not all of it, so there is no way a
final customer would be paying Israel.

Whether Hamas decides to pay or not is a separate question. In fact, 
this
might shed light on an opposite argument not to use the power: If the 
guy
does pay his electic bill, the extra 5 agurot you put on that bill 
would be
going to fund the enemy.

BTW, I do mean literally 10 agurot. A new iPhone 5 battery holds a 
charge of
1,440 mAh, appx 5.45 Wh (Watt-hour). Average cost in Gaza is about
.55 NIS / kWh, meaning that a full charge would be .3 arugot. In a week 
of
daily full charges (0 to 100%) he would rack up 2 agurot. In a year, it
would come to 1.09 NIS. (Actually, less: anyone asking this she'eilah 
isn't
likely to fully drain his battery over Shabbos. But I already 
overestimated
by assuming the phone is drained down to 0 daily, that the battery 
doesn't
lose capacity over the course of such usage, etc...)

So maybe we should be talking about shaveh perutah. A perutah might be 
a fixed
value or based on local currency. In a more machmir pesaq, perhaps 
shaveh
perutah in Israel would mean 5 agurot. Meaning, he would need to be 
doing
this more than 2 weeks for there to be any money involved.

OTOH, who wants to be guilty of dor hamabul style chamas in the land of
Cham'as?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger Here is the test to find whether your mission
mi...@aishdas.org on Earth is finished:
http://www.aishdas.org if you're alive, it isn't.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Richard Bach


Links:
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[1] http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org

On 12/01/2014 10:55 PM, I wrote:
> I am finding the exchange about Tal Umatar somewhat difficult to
> understand, because it seems that both Kenneth and Micha gloss over
> the uncomfortable fact that Shmuel miscalculated the length of the
> year.

Zev Sero responded.
 He did not miscalculate it, any more than R Ada did.  Both lengths,
365 1/4 days and 235/19 months, are convenient approximations, much
easier to work with than the correct value.  Shmuel's approximation
is used for purposes that the ordinary person has to calculate for
himself. It conveniently tracked the goyishe year, so if one had access
to a goyishe calendar no calculation was needed; Tal Umatar starts on
21-Nov (or 22-Nov if a leap day is coming), and Birkat Hachama is said
whenever, in the year after a leap year, 26-Mar falls on a Wednesday.
Pope Gregory complicated that a little by requiring these instructions
to be revised every century or so, but that's not a big problem.
Meanwhile, R Ada's approximation (which is closer to Shmuel's than to
the true value) is intended for more sophisticated people, rabbonim
and those who are in charge of creating and publishing calendars, or
of announcing in shul when Rosh Chodesh will be.   These are also not
expected to be the sort of arithmetic geniuses who can handle a
fraction like 1211/5000, but "add 7 months every 19 years" is easy
enough an instruction.

Zev, with all do respect, I believe you are wrong on both counts. As far as
Shmuel goes, there is no reason to believe that he did not mean what he
said. It was commonly held in the ancient world that the year is 365.25
days long.

Re Rav Adda (actually, while this is called Rav Adda's view, nowhere in the
Gemara does he state that this is the year's length), he did not give an
estimate at all! He gave a precise calculation of 365 days, five hours, 55
minutes and some seconds. The actual tropical year is 365/5/49 and some
seconds. How can you say that Rav Adda's number is approximate? It is so
detailed that had he known the true value, he should have given that value
instead!
For our purposes, however, Rav Adda's calculation suffices to calculate
when to intercalate: seven leap years in a 19-year cycle. The six-minute
difference will not affect us for many thousands of years, when, if we
continue using Rav Adda's number, Pesach will occur in the summer, and so
we would have to adjust the calendar at that time; however, certainly
Mashiach will be here long before this becomes an issue.

In next message, I will explain the ramifications of Shmuel's calculation.
Avi Goldstein
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I wrote: "The use of Shmuel's calendar creates a much more serious issue in
its
> use to determine the date of Birkat Hachamah."

Zev Sero wrote:
 Why?  When *should* birkat hachama be said?

This is a very difficult question, and I don't have the answer. In the
following, I assume that there was a teliyas hame'oros the night of the
fourth day of Creation. By using Shmuel's 365.25-day year, we arrive at a
point, every 28 years, when the sun is at the same point where it was at
teliyas hame'oros.
The problem is that the year is considerably shorter than Shmuel's
calculation. Now, in truth, even were Shmuel's calculation much closer to
reality, it would still not suffice to establish the exact moment we are
seeking. Indeed, even if the year were exactly 365.25 days long in Shmuel's
time, the earth's wobble can cause a slight but measurable difference in
the length of the year from year to year.
However, a very close calculation would probably be enough to set the time
for Birkat HaChamah within a narrow band of time that would incorporate the
time of teliyas hame'oros. Unfortunately, Shmuel's value is so far off that
when we recite Birkat HaChamah, the time has no relationship at all to the
time of teliyas hame'oros.
In truth, because Rav Adda's calculation is also so far removed from the
true length of the year, it too would not have served to set a time for
Birkat HaChamah.
Avi Goldstein
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Please see the pdf file at http://tinyurl.com/ln3mdnt

YL

[Chof-K's Halachically Speaking vol 10 issue 11: "Olives - Olive Oil and Chanukah.
-micha]

Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 03:05:01 -- 0500 (EST)
From: Rabbi Daniel Travis <dntra...@torah.org>
Subject: Integrity -- Tax Evasion
To: integr...@torah.org
Reply-To: do-not-re...@torah.org

Integrity
by Rabbi Daniel Travis
torah.org

Tax Evasion

"And Yosef imposed a twenty percent tax on the land of Egypt, which is
still prevailing today..." (Bereshith 47:26)

Yosef displayed both wisdom and sensitivity in the way he levied this
tax. Before he declared it to be law, he explained to the residents of
Egypt the uprightness of establishing such an obligation. In doing so he
won the confidence of the people, and insured that they would not feel
that their money was being taken unjustly. Only then did it become part
of the country's legislation. [1]

As unpleasant as it may be to give over large percentages of one's
earnings, the halachah gives the ruling powers, both on the municipal and
national levels, the right to collect taxes. Since they have jurisdiction
over the land, they have the right to ask for a reasonable compensation
from the residents of the land. If the inhabitants do not pay, the
government can force them to leave their land. Therefore, anyone who
does not pay taxes has violated the Torah prohibition against theft. [2]

The above halachah is only applicable if the ruling power makes a set
tax which has equal standards for every resident of that area. If they
single out a certain individual and unfairly tax him disproportionately
to the other inhabitants of the land, they are considered thieves,
and according to Torah law one is not required to pay such taxes. [3]
Likewise, if those who presently have control of the state are not
recognized by the residents of the land as the ruling authorities, they
do not have a right to collect taxes from the inhabitants, and if they
do so they are considered thieves. [4]

Nonetheless, whatever the circumstances may be, there is absolutely no
room to sanction taking money from the government which is not rightfully
yours. [5] This could cause a desecration of God's name, one of the most
serious transgressions. In addition, it may cause taxes to be raised,
which would classify those who caused it as gozel eth harabim (having
stolen from the public). [6] This in effect means that they have stolen
from every person in that area, an act for which it is nearly impossible
to repent properly.

1. Seforno on Bereshith 47:26.

2. Bava Kama 113a; Shulchan Aruch Choshen Mishpat 369:6. See also Ran,
Nedarim 28a.

3. Rambam, Yad HaChazaka, Gezel 5:14.

4. Ibid. 5:18; Shulchan Aruch Choshen Mishpat 369:2.

5. Responsa Shevet HaLevi 5:172.

6. Pithchei HaShulchan 1:4 (end).

Integrity, Copyright 2014 by Rabbi Daniel Travis and Torah.org.


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