Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 160

Mon, 01 Dec 2014

• 1. Re: Limited Mabul? (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: listening to the experts on har habayit (Zev Sero)
• 3. listening to the experts on har habayit (Eli Turkel)
• 4. Re: Limited Mabul? (H Lampel)

On Mon, Dec 01, 2014 at 10:31:11AM -0600, Lisa Liel wrote:
: I don't see the Rashash's point.  Two floods where the ocean rose
: up, and one Mabul between them, where that's not how the flood
: happened at all.

You don't see it, or don't agree with it? Clearly the Rashash didn't share
your given, and does believe that's how the flood happened. Seeing his
point seems easy, to me. As for understanding it... The question is why.

We know the waters of the flood were from nevqe'u kol ma'yenos tehom
rabah, va'arubos hashamahim niftachu" (7:11)

Perhaps his machloqes with Rashi involves the relationship between the
tehom and the world-girdling ocean. After all, "leRoqa ha'aretz al
hamayim" implies that the water under the aretz is the same body as
the water beyond its limits.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes
mi...@aishdas.org        "I am thought about, therefore I am -
http://www.aishdas.org   my existence depends upon the thought of a
Fax: (270) 514-1507      Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch

On 12/01/2014 12:58 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 01, 2014 at 1:08pm IST, R Eli Turkel wrote on Areivim:
> : One can be machalel shabbat to treat a nonJew because of eivah, ie not
> : treating the nonJew may cause injury to another Jew someone in the world
> : because he hears Jews dont treat nonJews on shabbat.
>
> It's not clear that's all mishum eivah means. As discussed on Avodah.
> There is also the more idealistic idea that eivah is simply something
> we shouldn't want to be making more of in this world.

Except that this heter does *not* use the language "mishum eivah".
Indeed, Chazal and all the rishonim and acharonim who permitted things
"mishum eiva" explicitly refused to permit this, and it was absolutely
forbidden until about 200 years ago.

<<It's not clear that's all mishum eivah means. As discussed on Avodah.
There is also the more idealistic idea that eivah is simply something
we shouldn't want to be making more of in this world.>>

Agreed but it as a minimum it includes causing possible injury to Jews
around the world.
As Micha states it can also include more idealistic ideas.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On 12/1/2014 1:16 PM, via Avodah wrote:
>
> Reopening this perenniel because RYGB offers a new data point (or at
> least, one I don't recall)
> <http://rygb.blogspot.com/2014/11/dvar-hashem-meyerushalm
> i-limited-mabul.html>:
> -- Sheqalim 6:2 (vilna 26a), and...
>
>      ... The parallel Midrash Rabba, end of Parasha 23:
>    'He calleth for the waters of the sea is written twice,
>    corresponding to the two times that the sea came up and inundated
>    the world. ... R. Judan, R. Abbahu, and R. Eleazar
>    in R. Chanina's name said: On the first it came up as far as
>    Acco and Jaffa, while on the second it came up as far as the
>    coasts of Barbary. R. Huna and R. Aha in R. Chanina's name said:
>    On the first, as far as the coasts of Barbary; on the second,
>    as far as Acco and Jaffa... R. Eleazar said: At the first, as far
>    as Calabria; at the second, as far as the coasts of Barbary.
>
>      

This new data point about the expansions of the sea does not gainsaythe 
direct global flooding by the rains and the waters of the t?hom. As 
mentioned in previous iterations, 
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol16/v16n162.shtml%2302> Tosefos on 
Zevachim 113aand Rabbeynu Bachaye (Breishis 7:27, 8:11)cite the opinion, 
based onYechezkiel 22:24, that EY was not subjected to the Mabul?s 
rains. But they go on to explain that nevertheless, we know from the 
pesukim in parshas Noach that the waters did go on to flood it. This new 
data point is evidently qualifying theextent to which even the flood 
waters affected Eretz Yisroel. It's not limiting the final global range 
of the Mabul.


Zvi Lampel

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