Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 152

Sat, 15 Nov 2014

• 1. Re: oldest sefer torah (Zev Sero)
• 2. Re: Shalshelet (Avi Goldstein)
• 3. origin of yam hamelech (M Cohen)
• 4. two consecutive shva nachs (Kenneth Miller)
• 5. Insights Into Halacha: Mayim Acharonim, Chova? (Prof. Levine)
• 6. Re: two consecutive shva nachs (Kenneth Miller)
• 7. Re: origin of yam hamelech (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: origin of yam hamelech (Eitan Levy)

On 11/13/2014 06:50 AM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> Kesav Ari is pretty much notmal BY, with the heads on 8 or 9 of the
> letters (tes is in dispute

Who disputes it?

> and I'm counting tzadi and tzadi peshutah
> separately) done differently. Ayin, tzadi, shin and possibly tes have
> the crowned head entirely to the left of the upright line, instead of the
> usual zayin-like intersection BY uses on crowned heads. Which is in common
> with Vellish. I do not know why Ari does not do the gimel similarly.

He does.  The Ari holds that *all* the Shaatnez Getz letters, except nun and
obviously zayin, are done like a vov and not a zayin.


> The bigger difference is that the Ari ches is a vav and zayin bridged
> together, not the two zayins we find described in Menachos, kesav BY,
> and Vellish.

Also the back head of the tzadi faces backwards, not forwards.

Cantor Wolberg wrote:
"This sign expresses vacillation, doubt, dread or anxiety." He goes on to
explain that Lot was vacillating because of his desire to keep his
possessions, while Yosef held back his desire to be with Lot's wife.
This leaves the other two cases: that of Eliezer and that of Moshe during
the installation of the kohanim.
First, let me note that it may be more accurate to describe the shalshelet
as a chain that holds one back (as my Rosh Yeshiva, HaRav Yechiel Perr, has
explained it). This fits with the shape of this trop and with its name.
And so Lot was chained to Sodom by his desire for his possessions, and
Yosef was chained to his mesorah (he saw his father Yaakov's image).
Let me conjecture that Eliezer was chained in his search for a wife for
Yitzchak because, as Rashi notes, Eliezer really wanted Yitzchak to marry
his own daughter. And so he embarked on his mission with something less
than a full heart.
What, however, chained Moshe? Rashi is Parshat Shemot states that Moshe was
meant to be the kohen gadol and lost this honor because he argued with
Hashem, causing Hashem to be angry. The shalshelet occurs in the pasuk that
details the final korban needed to install Aharon as the kohen gadol.
Perhaps Moshe, as he slaughtered this korban, felt a tinge of regret that
he himself could have  been the kohen gadol, and it is that tinge that is
expressed by the shalshelet.
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I have strong memories of hearing that the salt content of the Sea was
caused by the pillar of salt that Lot's wife turned into. 
.. hard to believe that any pillar of salt could have enough salt to turn a
fairly large lake into the saltiest place on earth.

I never heard this at all
I always thought the salt came from the 'gafris v'melech' that Hashem sent
to destroy Sodom.

Btw, I assumed when Lot's wife turned into salt, it remained the approx
size/shape of a human.
Does it say anywhere that she became a mountain of salt?
(why do the tour guides show pple a big mountain and claim its Lot's wife) 

(Perhaps this question belongs on the Mesora list, but given the light traffic recently on Avodah, I thought putting it here might be a good idea. - Akiva)

There is a well-known rule that if a word has two consecutive shvas, then
the second one must be a shva na. My understanding is that this is to
prevent the two consonants from forming a dipthong, and instead, the
consonant of the first shva will have a shva nach to conclude one syllable,
and the consonant of the second shva will have a shva na to begin another
syllable.

A similar rule is that if the first letter of a word has a shva, it must be
a shva na (to prevent the dipthong, as I was told). This rule is so
well-known that it has a famous exception, namely the words "shtei" and
"shnei", and other words all related to the meaning "two", where the
opening shin does have a shva nach.

A while back, I had asked about words which *end* with two consecutive
shvas, and they are both shva nach. Two examples were given at that time:
"nayft" (in Bemeh Madlikin) and "nayrd" (in Pitum Hak'tores) Given the
Mishnaic source of these words, and their technical meanings, I figured
they were possibly loan-words from some other language, and I let the whole
matter drop.

But today I realized that this actually does occur in totally normal Hebrew
verbs as well. And it's not really that rare, either. Here are some
examples, all from Sefer Bereishis:

yaft - He will enlarge - Noach 9:27
v'yoladt - and you (f) will give birth - Lech 16:11
tzachakt - you (f) laughed - Vayera 18:15
vatashk - and she gave drink - Vayera 21:19
va'aysht - and I drank - Chayei Sarah 24:46
va'yayvk - and he cried - Toldos 27:38
vayashk - and he gave drink - Vayetze  29:10

For a true native speaker of Lashon Hakodesh, are these words difficult to
pronounce properly? Am I totally mistaken about not having two consecutive
shva nachs?

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
Heavy rains mean flooding
Anywhere it rains it can flood. Learn your risk. Get flood insurance.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/54650af83153af76023st02vuc

A neighborhood housewife recently asked an interesting sheilah. 
Apparently, after hosting several friends and relatives for a Shabbos 
Seudah, she wash

A neighborhood housewife recently asked an interesting sheilah. 
Apparently, after hosting several friends and relatives for a Shabbos 
Seudah, she washed Mayim Acharonim along with the men, earning her 
much scorn and ridicule. The incredulous men commented that their 
washing Mayim Acharonim was only a chumra, and there obviously was no 
basis for a woman to do it as well. Our distraught domestic denizen 
wanted to know who acted correctly, and was astounded when I replied 
that technically speaking they both were...

To find out why, read the full article 
"<https://go.madmimi.com/redirects/1415906369
-53a1559e5cbc8692d637e54da7625403-b5b0657?pa=26248341693>Insights 
Into Halacha: Mayim Acharonim, Chova?" For all of the Mareh Mekomos / 
sources, just ask.



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In my previous post, I wrote that finding a word which ends with two
consecutive shva nachs "actually does occur in totally normal Hebrew verbs
... and it's not really that rare, either."

Somehow, I totally missed the fact that this not only "actually does
occur", but it is the standard form for a past tense verb in the singular
feminine second person (in other words: "you" to one woman). I should have
noticed this from the examples I gave, but some of them were masculine and
that threw me off.

Example:
You ate: Achalta to one man, Achalt to one woman
You said: Amarta to one man, Amart to one woman

Nevertheless, my question still stands, and is now even stronger: Is it
difficult for a native speaker of Lashon Hakodesh to pronounce two
consecutive shva nachs? If it *is* difficult, then how did this get to be a
basic form of the verb? And if not, then what does that say about the rule
that the second shva is supposedly *always* a shva na?

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
Odd Trick Fights Diabetes
"Unique" Proven Method To Control Blood Sugar In 3 Weeks. Watch Video.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/546538675a93a38676132st02vuc

On 11/13/2014 11:13 AM, M Cohen via Avodah wrote:
>> I have strong memories of hearing that the salt content of the Sea was
>> caused by the pillar of salt that Lot's wife turned into.
>> .. hard to believe that any pillar of salt could have enough salt to turn a
>> fairly large lake into the saltiest place on earth.

> I never heard this at all

Me either.

> I always thought the salt came from the 'gafris v'melech' that Hashem sent
> to destroy Sodom.

Exactly.  And I have always taken for granted that that's when the sea broke
through and flooded the plain.   Rashi doesn't actually *say* so, but it seems
obvious.


> Btw, I assumed when Lot's wife turned into salt, it remained the approx
> size/shape of a human.
> Does it say anywhere that she became a mountain of salt?
> (why do the tour guides show pple a big mountain and claim its Lot's wife)

Again, this seems obvious.  "Netziv" is a pillar, not a mountain.  About human
sized.   You could dissolve a human-sized lump of salt in the Kinneret without
noticeably affecting the water quality, let alone turning it into the Dead Sea.

And obviously if it's still there then it can't have dissolved into the sea.
Though my assumption is that it's not still there.  The bracha  doesn't necessarily
mean it still existed in Chazal's day, just that if one *did* see it, or something
like it, one *would* say the bracha.  But even if it hadn't eroded away by Chazal's
day, surely it has done so by now.

Hi folks. I don't know about the origin according to our tradition, but as a 
tour guide I can answer from a technical perspective. The lake is salty 
because it has no outlet and has been shrinking for thousands of years. The 
water evaporates but the salt does not, and there is no outlet to carry out 
the salty water and thus 'refresh' the lake, and it thus becomes more and 
more concentrated over time.

There is a pillar that is referred to as 'lot's wife' by tradition of the 
local Arabs (there are also 2 or 3 other 'lot's wifes' in Jordan), and there 
is a 'Har Sdom' which is a small mountain given that name in modern times 
times because it is in the right general area and is made of salt, thus 
recalling the story, but having no direct connection. If a tour guide you 
were with referred to a whole mountain as 'lot's wife' he was confused.
?---
Best Wishes,
-Eitan Levy
?Trip Coordinator, Guide
?Insite Israel Tours
www.insite-israel-tour.com
IL: 050-9807602
?INTL: +972-50-980-7602-----Original 
Message----- 
From: M Cohen via Avodah
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2014 18:13
To: avo...@lists.aishdas.org ; avodah-requ...@lists.aishdas.org
Cc: elitur...@gmail.com
Subject: [Avodah] origin of yam hamelech

I have strong memories of hearing that the salt content of the Sea was
caused by the pillar of salt that Lot's wife turned into.
.. hard to believe that any pillar of salt could have enough salt to turn a
fairly large lake into the saltiest place on earth.

I never heard this at all
I always thought the salt came from the 'gafris v'melech' that Hashem sent
to destroy Sodom.

Btw, I assumed when Lot's wife turned into salt, it remained the approx
size/shape of a human.
Does it say anywhere that she became a mountain of salt?
(why do the tour guides show pple a big mountain and claim its Lot's wife)

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Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
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