Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 151

Thu, 13 Nov 2014

• 1. oldest sefer torah (Eli Turkel)
• 2. origin of yam hamelech (Eli Turkel)
• 3. Re: oldest sefer torah (Micha Berger)
• 4. Shalshelet: the rarest of all trope (Cantor Wolberg)
• 5. Re: Shalshelet: the rarest of all trope (menucha)
• 6. Re: oldest sefer torah (Eli Turkel)

<<The pen was held at a diagonal, making lines that diagonal down from right
to left thinnest. In Beis Yoseif [Ask] and Ari [Chassidish] kesavim,>>

I thought that sefardim also follow ktav Ari.

Obviously also this are just names as the Rhodes Sefer Torah predates both
BY and Ari.
This explains why the Ahkenazim follow ktav BY whereas normally the
sefardim follow
R. Yosef Karo

Question: Were the rules as rigid before Rav Yosef Karo and the Ari or more
flexible?
As Micha notes the Rhodes sefer Torah basically follows ktav Sefardi but
has some letters that follow the Ashkenazi script.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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<<In parshas Lech Lecha, I understand Rashi to explain pasuk 14:3 as
follows: At the time of the war of the four kings and five kings, there was
an area containing many fields, known as Emek Ha-siddim (literally, Valley
of the Siddim). At some time after that war, some other body of water broke
into that valley and flooded it, creating the Yam Hamelach.

I find myself wondering when this transformation occurred, and why Rashi
doesn't tell us.

I have strong memories of hearing that the salt content of the Sea was
caused by the pillar of salt that Lot's wife turned into. That would fit
Rashi's timeline very well, which makes his silence all the more curious.
Then again, perhaps he omitted this point because it is of non-Jewish
origin, or perhaps even totally unfounded altogether. >>

Physically both explanations are very difficult. If some other body of
water broke into the valley why would it be so salty.
Also hard to believe that any pillar of salt could have enough salt to turn
a fairly large lake into the saltiest place on earth.

Naturally scientists have an entirely different time line. From Wikipedia

From 70,000 to 12,000 years ago, the lake's level was 100 m (330 ft) to
250 m (820 ft) higher than its current level. This lake, Lake Lisan,
fluctuated dramatically, rising to its highest level around 26,000 years
ago, indicating a very wet climate in the Near East
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_East>.[15]
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea#cite_note-SocietySociety1971-15
> Around
10,000 years ago, the lake's level dropped dramatically, probably to even
lower than today's. During the last several thousand years, the lake has
fluctuated approximately 400 m (1,300 ft), with some significant drops and
rises. Current theories as to the cause of this dramatic drop in levels
rule out volcanic activity <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcano>;
therefore, it may have been a seismic event.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 11:19:33AM +0200, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
: I thought that sefardim also follow ktav Ari.

: Obviously also this are just names...

Vehara'ayah, the kesav Sepharadim use is called "Vellish". Why a Yiddish
name? Because the first people who needed to name it were Ashkenazim;
to a Sepharadi, before any need to discuss comparisons, it would simply
be called "Kesav Ashuris".

Kesav Ari is pretty much notmal BY, with the heads on 8 or 9 of the
letters (tes is in dispute, and I'm counting tzadi and tzadi peshutah
separately) done differently. Ayin, tzadi, shin and possibly tes have
the crowned head entirely to the left of the upright line, instead of the
usual zayin-like intersection BY uses on crowned heads. Which is in common
with Vellish. I do not know why Ari does not do the gimel similarly.

The bigger difference is that the Ari ches is a vav and zayin bridged
together, not the two zayins we find described in Menachos, kesav BY,
and Vellish.

: Question: Were the rules as rigid before Rav Yosef Karo and the Ari or more
: flexible?

The only cross kesav halachic problem I know of is that Sepharadim
cannot use Ashkenazi sifrei Torah of either sort. Ashkenazim hold we
may use Sepharadi kesav. BY and Ari are entirely differences in which
is preferable, in minhag, not in din.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "And you shall love H' your G-d with your whole
mi...@aishdas.org        heart, your entire soul, and all you own."
http://www.aishdas.org   Love is not two who look at each other,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      It is two who look in the same direction.

The rare sign of shalshelet appears only four times in the entire Torah:
three times in Bereshis and once in Vayikra (8:23) on the word Vayishchat.

In Chayei Sara 24:12 we find Eliezer addressing God. "And he said"
[Vayomar] is accented with the recondite shalshelet (the second time in
the Torah).

This sign expresses vacillation, doubt, dread or anxiety. It gives us an
insight into the agitated state of Eliezer. In addition, Eliezer is the
first person that the Torah documents as praying for personal guidance
at such a critical time.

The first shalshelet is found in the story of Lot (19:16). Lot finds it
extremely difficult to part with his possessions in S'dom. And even when
he is warned by the angels to run for his life, he is terribly conflicted
and doesn't want to leave all that material gain. The confusion in his
neshama is expressed in the shalshelet on the word "and he lingered"
[Vayitmahma].

The third shalshelet appears in the story of Yosef (39:8). Tempted by
his master's wife to "lie with" her, he adamantly refused. Obviously,
it wasn't easy but he didn't succumb and the shalshelet indicates that
Yosef's refusal was constant, categorical and definitive.

There are many moments in life when we all will vacillate between the
material and the spiritual, when we will wrestle with the noble and
dishonorable, when we will struggle with the good and evil and with
the holy and the profane. But WE must determine how WE will accent our
shalshelet in life -- for our lives are part of a long and triumphant
shalshelet.

The weakest link in a chain is the strongest because it can break it.
Stanislaw Jerzy Lec (1909-1966)

Yareach (Yerach) ben yomo/Karnei para?

<<The only cross kesav halachic problem I know of is that Sepharadim
cannot use Ashkenazi sifrei Torah of either sort. Ashkenazim hold we
may use Sepharadi kesav. BY and Ari are entirely differences in which
is preferable, in minhag, not in din.>>

All the sources I saw say that a Sefardi can make a bracha on an Ashkenzai
sefer Torah
and that is standard practive in Israel.
It is not uncommon also to see a mixed shul with both types of sifrei Torah.

http://eret
zhemdah.org/newsletterArticle.asp?lang=he&;pageid=48&cat=1&n
ewsletter=886&article=3388

http://www.kipa.co.il/ask/show/11581-%D7%A1%D7%A4%D7%A8-%D7%AA%
D7%95%D7%A8%D7%94-%D7%90%D7%A9%D7%9B%D7%A0%D7%96%D7%99-%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%A4%D
7%A8%D7%93%D7%99


http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pagefeed/hebrewbooks_org_21282_41.pdf

Eli Turkel

On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 11:19:33AM +0200, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
> : I thought that sefardim also follow ktav Ari.
>
> : Obviously also this are just names...
>
> Vehara'ayah, the kesav Sepharadim use is called "Vellish". Why a Yiddish
> name? Because the first people who needed to name it were Ashkenazim;
> to a Sepharadi, before any need to discuss comparisons, it would simply
> be called "Kesav Ashuris".
>
> Kesav Ari is pretty much notmal BY, with the heads on 8 or 9 of the
> letters (tes is in dispute, and I'm counting tzadi and tzadi peshutah
> separately) done differently. Ayin, tzadi, shin and possibly tes have
> the crowned head entirely to the left of the upright line, instead of the
> usual zayin-like intersection BY uses on crowned heads. Which is in common
> with Vellish. I do not know why Ari does not do the gimel similarly.
>
> The bigger difference is that the Ari ches is a vav and zayin bridged
> together, not the two zayins we find described in Menachos, kesav BY,
> and Vellish.
>
> : Question: Were the rules as rigid before Rav Yosef Karo and the Ari or
> more
> : flexible?
>
> The only cross kesav halachic problem I know of is that Sepharadim
> cannot use Ashkenazi sifrei Torah of either sort. Ashkenazim hold we
> may use Sepharadi kesav. BY and Ari are entirely differences in which
> is preferable, in minhag, not in din.
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>
> --
> Micha Berger             "And you shall love H' your G-d with your whole
> mi...@aishdas.org        heart, your entire soul, and all you own."
> http://www.aishdas.org   Love is not two who look at each other,
> Fax: (270) 514-1507      It is two who look in the same direction.
>



-- 
Eli Turkel
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