Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 133

Tue, 16 Sep 2014

• 1. Judaism is not a religion (Prof. Levine)
• 2. Re: Sources for 3 Stars and Earliest Talis Times (Kenneth Miller)
• 3. Airplane davening (Rich, Joel)
• 4. Re: A Judaic Explanation of Mindfulness (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Zemanim (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Zemanim (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: Zemanim (Kenneth Miller)
• 8. Re: Zemanim (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: Zemanim (Zev Sero)
• 10. Re: Zemanim (Kenneth Miller)

I have in the past pointed out that RSRH says that Judaism is not a 
religion.  From http://tinyurl.com/8rmuh98

"Judaism is not a religion, the synagogue is not a church, and the 
rabbi is not a priest. Judaism is not a mere adjunct to life: it 
comprises all of life."

Rav Hirsch is not the only one to assert that Judaism is not a 
religion.  The following is from today's Hakhel email bulletin.

HIGHLIGHT QUOTES FROM THE RECENT HAKHEL YARCHEI KALLAH:

3. Rabbi Avraham Chaim Feuer, Shlita: Yiddishkeit is not a religion. 
Its definition is a live connection to Hashem!

YL

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Rv Yitzchok Levine quotes
http://www.myzmanim.com/readsources.aspx
as saying:

<<< In New York and New Jersey, Motzoei Shabbos is never later than 50 minutes past Shekiah. (Igros Moshe) >>>

This suggests that Motzoei Shabbos can be less than 50 minutes past, but
that is NOT the shita of the Igros Moshe. (I have been meaning to write to
the author of that piece for quite some time, but to my regret I still
haven't gotten around to it.)

The Igros Moshe holds that tzeis in those areas is at EXACTLY 50 minutes
after shkia. My proof for this is how in several locations, he equates 50
minutes to 4 mil, and uses that to set 3/4 mil at 9 3/8 minutes.

He thus establishes Rabanan's bein hashmashos as running from shkiah until
9 3/8 minutes later. And Rabenu Tam's bein hashmashos from 40 5/8 until 50
minutes after shkiah. And he never suggests any  other time points - bein
l'kula bein l'chumra.

Akiva Miller
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From a recent blogpost-comments appreciated:

Question:
 I was recently on an EL AL flight to Israel. The crew congenially allowed
 us to daven mincha right after takeoff (earliest mincha was 1:40 PM, take
 off at 1:30 PM).

Response:
I do not daven in airplane minyanim-I believe R Schwab was among many who
stated that one should better daven in one's seat. Being a chiyuv shouldn't
change anything.

Rejoinder:
There are many who take that position, however I have always heard it based
on being by the lavatory or against the crew's wishes and annoying to
people who are sitting where you are davening. This flight had both a rear
galley and an unoccupied section of business class by the front galley both
with room to make a minyan without disturbing passengers and not being by a
lavatory and with the crew's permission - had these conditions not existed,
I too would have davened by my seat.


KVCT
Joel Rich

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On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 1:04pm EDT, R' Joel Rich quoted "A Judaic
Explanation of Mindfulness" by Jonathan Feiner, PhD. I think Dr Feiner
is accurate when he writes:
:> "... That is okay, since serving God is a lifelong mission. Perhaps I should
:> place more emphasis on studying materials and engaging in behaviors that
:> may decrease these feelings." Once again, the Judaic approach places
:> less of an emphasis on acceptance in the present moment and a greater
:> emphasis on change for the future."

But this is a rejection of Mindfulness on the grounds of it being
non-Jewish, not a "Jewish Mindfulness".

More to the point, I don't think "mindfulness" has a role in Judaism,
and for reasons he touched upon.

I have taught Mussar in settings where most of the audience has experience
with other spiritual traditions. And therefore have had call to discuss
whether ideas like "mindfulness" have a role in Mussar. (And the audience
member who raises the question usually starts with "what is the role?" or
"to me .... <middah XYZ> sounds like mindfulness". Rarely to they start
by asking whether mindfulness fits at all.

This is much like someone who takes the mishnah in avos, "Eizeh hu gibor?"
and makes it the basis of "Jewish Heroism". Rather than seeing Ben Zoma
as rejecting the value of Heroism in a Classical Greek sense, the speaker
or writer transvalues the word "heroism".

That way lies confusion, whether it's because people carry through
conclusions made about heroism and apply them to the different meaning
they're now giving the word, or the reverse. (Using the same word in
two different ways leads to errors of equivication
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivocation>.) The whole point of this
speaking technique is to borrow emotional loading from one concept
to another by sharing the same term for both.

Or if we're talking about Mindfulness.

Mindfulness comes from the lexicon of English-speaking Buddhists. It is
very much tied to Buddhism's call to let go of striving and desire as
the only way to acheive happiness and enlightenment. If you stop wanting
things you don't have, you had no reason for suffering.


At 5:54pm GMT (1:54 EDT), R Akiva Miller replied to RJR:
:> ... I am clearly not there yet.  That is okay, since serving God
:> is a lifelong mission. Perhaps I should place more emphasis on
:> studying materials and engaging in behaviors that may decrease
:> these feelings. ...

: I don't see anything new here that hasn't already been discussed in
: other talks about guilt and teshuva. Proper amounts of guilt feelings
: are good, because they push us to teshuva. But an overabundance of it
: causes depression and accomplishes nothing. As always, the middle of
: the road is best.

:> Once again, the Judaic approach places less of an emphasis on
:> acceptance in the present moment and a greater emphasis on change
:> for the future.

: This part *is* new to me. Dr Feiner's approach seems to have a real danger
: of putting too much emphasis on the future...

I would say we should follow the parallel rules as those we apply to
tokhchah -- rebuke what you can thereby change, and learn to live with,
or at least remaind silence, with those you can't.

People have a nequdas habechirah [NhB]. (As REED calls the "battlefront"
where the higher and lower desires conflict enough to force the decision
to conscious attention and thus bechirah chafshi.)

If looking at a personal flaw that is next to the NhB, work on it. If
not, realize that it's either
- something for down the road; or
- something you might need professional help to address (eg addiction).

I think this tells you where the middle of the road is.

: I often tell my kids and others: Where you're holding is not as
: important [as] the direction you're going. And if you're going in the
: right direction, even the speed you go is not as important as the fact
: that you're going forward...

Yes, direction is MORE important, but you risk overstating it.

I am concerned with the possiblity of underplaying the importance of
speed. It's much like your concern with the original essay. I should grow
as much as I am able; not caring about speed might lead to complacency.

At 2:15pm EDT, RJR wrote:
: I agree that I've heard it before but I still wonder as to the
: decision algorithm. Let's substitute another avodah topic for a
: minute, smoking....

I think both points that I made are pieces of an answer to your question.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A person must be very patient
mi...@aishdas.org        even with himself.
http://www.aishdas.org         - attributed to R' Nachman of Breslov
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Sun, Aug 31, 2014 at 04:08:44PM -0400, Micha Berger wrote:
: Does anyone know where I can get ahold of Sefer haYesod leRabbeinu Tam
: with the AhS's Or laYsharim? I'm looking for chiddushim siman 181 or 221,
: whereever the AhS discusses his shitah of zemanim...

Further research found that (1) R' Tam discusses zemanim in 221, not 181,
and (2) if there was a OlY that went beyond #163, it is likely lost. (Like
some of the qunterusin that would have gone into the AhS, assuming it was
entirely finished at one point..)

RYME says in the AhS that there is a discussion of zemanim in OlY, but
he doesn't say where. My guess was it was on R' Tam's primary discussion
of tzeis. But perhaps not. Perhaps it's in the first 163 se'ifim. The OCR
on the HebrewBooks.org copy is too poor for any search to be meaningful.


However, given AhS OC 233:14 and  261:3-8, I got much of the AhS's
masqanos about zemanim:

The AhS holds that a day, in terms of 12 sha'os, is haneitz to sheqi'ah.
Therefore, s"z q"sh is as per the Gra, not the MA.

He holds a mil = 18 min.

He holds that all shiurim Chazal give are only for the equinox and inly
in EY and Bavel. If we want to compute zemanim, the AhS would have us
translate minutes to degrees.

He holds that alos is 4 mil, ie 72 min before haneitz, or really --
16.1 deg.

The AhS seems to be saying tzeis 3/4 mil after sheqi'ah. Attributing it to
"rabbin migedolei olam", naming the Gra and the Baal haTanya's siddur.
Source in the Y-mi.

Really? This would come to around 4 deg. Something like 13 min after
sheqi'ah in EY, and a mere 20 min tomorrow night in NY.

And if this is din, when did common practice grow to 42min plus?

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Brains to the lazy
mi...@aishdas.org        are like a torch to the blind --
http://www.aishdas.org   a useless burden.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                 - Bechinas haOlam

On 12/09/2014 1:41 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
>
> The AhS seems to be saying tzeis 3/4 mil after sheqi'ah. Attributing it to
> "rabbin migedolei olam", naming the Gra and the Baal haTanya's siddur.
> Source in the Y-mi.
>
> Really? This would come to around 4 deg. Something like 13 min after
> sheqi'ah in EY, and a mere 20 min tomorrow night in NY.

More than that, because while the halacha is that kedei hiluch mil is 18 min,
R Yehuda holds that it's 24 min, and he's the one who says BhSh is 3/4 of a mil.
So that 3/4 of a mil has to be measured in his millin, not in ours.  i.e. it's
18 min (in EY at the equinox), not 13.5.  Which, after adding the difference
between astronomical sunset and shkias hachamah, comes to somewhere just north
of 5 degrees.

And according to the Alter Rebbe we then have to add 2 minutes for R Yose's BhSh,
and we measure this from the altitude of "the high mountains of EY" rather than
sea level, which brings it to almost 6 degrees.


> And if this is din, when did common practice grow to 42min plus?

Not based on the GRA or the AR.  It's based on those (e.g. the Melamed Leho'il)
who ignore the "millin" measurement altogether, and instead use astronomical
observations to determine the "3 medium stars" criterion.

-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

R' Micha Berger wrote:
> However, given AhS OC 233:14 and 261:3-8, I got much of the AhS's
> masqanos about zemanim: ... He holds that all shiurim Chazal give are
> only for the equinox and only in EY and Bavel. If we want to compute
> zemanim, the AhS would have us translate minutes to degrees.

In 261:8, he does indeed specify the eqinox and the mideast, but I did
not see any requirement to use degrees as the translation method. There
is another method which might possibly be acceptable to the AhS, that
of Shaos Zmanios. In this method, alos and tzeis are not fixed at a
certain position below the horizon, but at 120% of a current and local
Shaah Zmaniah before sunrise and after sunset.

I contemplated this for a while, and on rereading the AhS, I realized
that I was wrong. If the AhS had merely said, "This only applies in Nisan
and Tishrei," we could understand him to mean, "This only applies when
Shaos Zmanios are equal to Shaos Shavos, and so at other parts of the
year you must adjust it according to the length of the day," by setting
Tzeis at 1.2 Shaos Zmanios after sunset.

But that's not what the AhS - and so many others - writes. He says that
it is not enough to consider the length of the day, but the location
must also be factored in - which leads us to the "degrees" calculations.

On a related note, I once saw something in the Mishne Brurah, bit I
haven't been able to find it, and I'd appreciate if anyone could show
it to me. First he explained how to calculate zemanim with the Shaos
Zmanios procedure that I explained above. But then he said something to
the effect of, "There is another way to calculate this, and it is more
accurate, but it is too difficult for most people to use." He never
explained that other calculation, but I've always presumed that he was
referring to the Degrees method. Does this sound familiar to anyone?


[Email #2.]

R' Micha Berger asked:
> And if this is din, when did common practice grow to 42min plus?

I don't know, but I saw something that might be relevant: Look at the
second half of AhS 261:4. Is he telling is to calculate tzeis for Shma
and Kiddush one way, but for Motzoei Shabbos a different way?

Akiva Miller

On Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 08:49:18PM +0000, Kenneth Miller wrote:
: R' Micha Berger wrote:
:> However, given AhS OC 233:14 and 261:3-8, I got much of the AhS's
:> masqanos about zemanim: ... He holds that all shiurim Chazal give are
:> only for the equinox and only in EY and Bavel. If we want to compute
:> zemanim, the AhS would have us translate minutes to degrees.

: In 261:8, he does indeed specify the eqinox and the mideast, but I did
: not see any requirement to use degrees as the translation method. There
: is another method which might possibly be acceptable to the AhS, that
: of Shaos Zmanios. In this method, alos and tzeis are not fixed at a
: certain position below the horizon, but at 120% of a current and local
: Shaah Zmaniah before sunrise and after sunset.

Back a step.

In the AhS's day, computing sunset was a lot of work and beyond the reach
of most people. So when he gives a zeman, most people were perforce relying
on re'iyah. So, there were basically two possibilities for a time that is
not between haneitz and sheqi'ah (or if I wasn't keeping to the AhS, perhaps
alos to tzeis kol hakokhavim):
1- fixed time length; ie a mil or a parsah is really the time it takes to
   walk that distance, no adjustments; or
2- when the sky looks the same way it would on the equinox, in the
   mid-east in some idealized case after that amount of time. (No
   artficial lighting, do we count mountains raising the horizon?, etc...)

Unfortunately, for most of us that isn't even an option. My home town
of Passaic has Manhattan's light polution, among other sources. But
you would need to live in a place that didn't even have street lights.
Between lighting up the sky and narrowing your pupils, even a street
light would change the results.

The nearest we can do to determining how the sky would look in some
idealized case is by talking about how low the sun is below the horizon.
In theory, the same declination (+/- altitude, humidity and air pressure,
all small effects aside from corner-cases like Denver) should produce
the same visibility of stars.

With that background, I therefore reached the same conclusion as you
write:
: But that's not what the AhS - and so many others - writes. He says that
: it is not enough to consider the length of the day, but the location
: must also be factored in - which leads us to the "degrees" calculations.

Actually, from the fall equinox to the spring equinox, using 1/12 of the
night as an hour would be more like re'iyah than either the fixed time or
the sha'ah zemanis, and in the spring and summer, the sha'ah zemanis is
better. (It would also be lechumerah for most uses.) Relying on sha'ah
zemanis means that tzeis is later in the summer than in the winter, even
though a bigger percentage of the night has passed. It would seem that
the "speed of the sun" shortly after sunset would be a function of both.

Anyway, we agree that computing by degrees is closest to re'iyah.

: On a related note, I once saw something in the Mishne Brurah...
: to the effect of, "There is another way to calculate this, and it is more
: accurate, but it is too difficult for most people to use." He never
: explained that other calculation, but I've always presumed that he was
: referring to the Degrees method. Does this sound familiar to anyone?

Interesting. So far, BICD and I haven't found it.

:> And if this is din, when did common practice grow to 42min plus?

: I don't know, but I saw something that might be relevant: Look at the
: second half of AhS 261:4. Is he telling is to calculate tzeis for Shma
: and Kiddush one way, but for Motzoei Shabbos a different way?

Since he isn't really talking about calculation, I see the AhS as saying
that when in doubt, there is more reason to err on the side of caution
for ending Shabbos than one must for deciding when to say Shemah. He
raises the subject of doubt when discussing a possible understanding
of the Rambam, in the middle of the se'if. And then the closing engs:
"However, on motz"sh, you definitly need to know the middle-sized stars
without making a mistake with the big ones..."


On Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 03:07:28PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
:> The AhS seems to be saying tzeis 3/4 mil after sheqi'ah. Attributing it to
:> "rabbin migedolei olam", naming the Gra and the Baal haTanya's siddur.
:> Source in the Y-mi.

:> Really? This would come to around 4 deg. Something like 13 min after
:> sheqi'ah in EY, and a mere 20 min tomorrow night in NY.

: More than that, because while the halacha is that kedei hiluch mil is
: 18 min, R Yehuda holds that it's 24 min, and he's the one who says
: BhSh is 3/4 of a mil.

: So that 3/4 of a mil has to be measured in his millin, not in ours...

Actually, the AhS, whose shitah I'm trying to understand, obviously
disagrees. Because he asserts both 3/4 of a mil and an 18 minute mil.

:> And if this is din, when did common practice grow to 42min plus?

: Not based on the GRA or the AR. It's based on those (e.g. the Melamed Leho'il)
: who ignore the "millin" measurement altogether, and instead use astronomical
: observations to determine the "3 medium stars" criterion.

Except that I would think it would have to match what Chazal discuss. We
are more sure of the words of the gemara (or Y-mi or Sifri) than the
definition of "medium" for knowing which stars to count. (Or near whether
they must be near each other, which part of the sky -- three stars at
the western horizon would be quite late compares to 3 anywhere, etc...)

So how do we make a change like this without asserting a peshat in
the sources? And recall the Gra's argument against R' Tam was that
hachush makshish, meaning he help 3/4 mil after the normal definition
of sheqiah matches our sensory data.

So why do the Kaf haChaim, R YM Tukaczinsky, the IM or R' David Shpitzer
(et all) say that no, their times are close to actual observation,
rather than question what they're looking for?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When faced with a decision ask yourself,
mi...@aishdas.org        "How would I decide if it were Ne'ilah now,
http://www.aishdas.org   at the closing moments of Yom Kippur?"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On 15/09/2014 1:49 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> : Not based on the GRA or the AR. It's based on those (e.g. the Melamed Leho'il)
> : who ignore the "millin" measurement altogether, and instead use astronomical
> : observations to determine the "3 medium stars" criterion.
>
> Except that I would think it would have to match what Chazal discuss. We
> are more sure of the words of the gemara (or Y-mi or Sifri) than the
> definition of "medium" for knowing which stars to count. (Or near whether
> they must be near each other, which part of the sky -- three stars at
> the western horizon would be quite late compares to 3 anywhere, etc...)
> So how do we make a change like this without asserting a peshat in
> the sources?

Ask the Melamed Leho`il and the others who go this route.  They say openly
that this is what they're doing.  They don't refer to the shiurim of 3/4 mill
or 4 mill at all.


> And recall the Gra's argument against R' Tam was that hachush makshish,
> meaning he help 3/4 mil after the normal definition of sheqiah matches our
> sensory data.

Well, it clearly does.   When we look outside at 3.24 mil, which is when RT
says it's yom gamur, we see that it's pitch dark.  That's neged hachush.
But when we're talking about the difference between 4.5 degrees and 7.5,
while our chush can clearly distinguish them, it's not obvious which one is
incorrect.  Both match the criterion that it's dark but there's still a bit
of daylight left, for different values of "a bit".


-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

I wrote:
> I once saw something in the Mishne Brurah, ...

and now I found it. It is actually in the Beur Halacha 261, "Shehu gimel milin ur'via". In my edition, it begins on the very last line of pg 33a.

He begins discussing the 4 mil, and shaos shavos and zmanios, and repeatedly emphasizes how this calculation is only for Nisan and Tishrei. And then he wrote:

"And the Gra wrote similarly, that the shiurim of the gemara were said only
for the area of Bavel. But in our countries, which lie to the north, bein
hashmashos is always longer. And the Sefer minchas Kohen wrote that too.
But who is there nowadays who can calculate the time exactly (l'kavayn
hazman b'tzimtzum)?"

And based on that, he concludes that we must use the 3 Stars Rule
(medium-size in theory, but small in practice) because that is a sure-fire
test, while calculations are less sure.

But that was pre-war Europe. From his question, "Who can calculate it?", it
sure does seem possible that he would accept the degree-based calculations
done by modern mathematicians.

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
The #1 Worst Carb Ever?
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