Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 117

Wed, 06 Aug 2014

• 1. Re: Was Rav Yosef Caro a Rishon? (Ezra Chwat)
• 2. Women and Kiddush Levana (Prof. Levine)
• 3. Re: Women and Kiddush Levana (Rich, Joel)
• 4. It Ain't No Coincidence ()
• 5. Re: It Ain't No Coincidence (Micha Berger)
• 6. Pills on Tish'ah beAv (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Pills on Tish'ah beAv (Kenneth Miller)
• 8. Re: It Ain't No Coincidence (Lisa Liel)
• 9. Re: Pills on Tish'ah beAv (Kenneth Miller)
• 10. Re: It Ain't No Coincidence (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Pills on Tish'ah beAv (Micha Berger)
• 12. Medrash on MRAH being buried in an unmarked grave (Michael Poppers)
• 13. nero caeser (Eli Turkel)
• 14. Re: It Ain't No Coincidence (Zev Sero)
• 15. Re: Pills on Tish'ah beAv (Kenneth Miller)
• 16. Philosophical and theological challenges of sacrifices (Prof. Levine)

[Micha Berger]:
"addressing how to deal with a machloqes between the Beis Yoseif, the
SA or one of the Mechaber's teshuvos:"

In a personal discussion many years ago with RZN Goldberg shlit"a (in
preparation of a paper on Rif and Gaonim), he added the following input
to the above issue: The responsa of the Mechaber often contradict his
psak in SA. This reflects a functional difference between the two works:
Tshuvos reflect his own personal opinion (limited to the context of
the specific She'elah). A composer/editor of a Code that intends to be
universal (unlimited to local tradition) and long-standing (unlimited to
generation) will omit his own personal opinion. This follows the standard
set by RY Hanasi in the Mishnah, where his own psak will almost always
appear in the Tosefta, where he functions as one of the Tanaim, but will
be omitted from the Mishnah, where he functions as the editor. To some
degree this is true of Rambam in MT, where he warns the reader whenever
he presents his own opinion not based on precedent sources.

If RHK is a Rishon or Achron, whether in the bibliographic realm
or in the realm of overriding authority, is pending the general
question of defining the boundaries of Rabbinic periodization. The
mechanism that constructs these boundaries was addressed at depth
by Prof. RSZ Havlin (Mehqarim B'safrut HaTalmudit, 1983, pp. 148-192
http://aleph.nli.org.il:80/F/?func=direct&doc_number=000355780&local_base=RMB01),
who presented a number of models. He also tackled the parallel question of
'is Rambam a Gaon or a Rishon' in Hama'ayan Nisan 5725 pp, 42- 47.

"Emes Ata Hu Rishon, emes Ata hu Achron". The Mechaber straddles the
boundary between the periods. Similar to the first generation Amoraim,
of which are said "Tanna [Hu] uPalig". Only in the case of RYK, or Rebbe,
he is, by definition, the boundary.

Ezra Chwat

Today's Halacha for Today sent from 
http://halachafortodaycom.blogspot.com/ says,  amongst other things,

1) Kiddush Levana is recited after Ma'ariv on Motzaei TishaB'Av, but 
should only be recited after breaking the fast and changing into 
regular shoes.

Women do not say Kiddush Levana (ever).

For more about this please see http://tinyurl.com/obxgd37

and listen to the talk at http://tinyurl.com/o6j5dgn

YL

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Today's Halacha for Today sent from http://halachafortodaycom.blogspot.com/ says,  amongst other things,

1) Kiddush Levana is recited after Ma'ariv on Motzaei TishaB'Av, but should only be recited after breaking the fast and changing into regular shoes.


YL
================================================================
For many this would lead to a dialectic between saying kiddush levana brov am (or at least a minyan) and breaking the fast etc.

The OU says:   If the moon is shining, we recite kiddush levana. (One
should first change into normal leather shoes - Mishnah Brurah 426:11.) 
See halacha 97:11 that one should eat something before kiddush levana. (If
one is going to recite kiddush levana with the maariv minyan before they
disperse, then he need not eat first - Shaar HaTziyon 426:9.)

She-nir'eh et nehamat Yerushalayim u-binyanah bi-mherah ve-yamenu,
Joel Rich
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History lucidly depicts how Israel?s deliverance constantly emerges 
from the midst of tragedy. It is for this reason that Pesah, which symbolizes 
redemption, coincides with Tisha b?Av, which implies suffering and doom. Both 
Pesah (first day) and Tisha b?Av fall on the same day, inasmuch as Israel?s fate 
decrees that salvation shall spring forth from the very core of disaster.


?It's really a wonder that I haven't dropped all my ideals, 
because they seem so absurd and impossible to carry out. 
Yet I keep them, because in spite of everything, I still believe 
that people are really good at heart.? 
? Anne Frank, The Diary of a Young Girl

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On Tue, Aug 05, 2014 at 8:51am EDT, Cantor Wolberg wrote:
: History lucidly depicts how Israel's deliverance constantly emerges 
: from the midst of tragedy. It is for this reason that Pesah, which
: symbolizes redemption, coincides with Tisha b'Av, which implies
: suffering and doom. Both Pesah (first day) and Tisha b'Av fall on the
: same day, inasmuch as Israel's fate decrees that salvation shall spring
: forth from the very core of disaster.

I assume CRW is referring to the fact that they both start on the same
day of the week.

The difference is that "Vehi sheOmdah" is part of the seder, whereas
Tish'ah beAv is about qinos. Although admittedly we end Eikhah with
"chadeish yameinu keqedem", and after 44 qinos we sing Eili Tzion (which
itself is a downer) to a tune that is more joyous than dirge-like. But
not wanting to end on the negative note doesn't make the coda the theme.

Admittedly, I may be overstating the point. The Y-mi says that the
mashiach was (or ch"v will be) born on 9 beAv, rolling hope into the
theme,

I just want to avoid the opposite error, being so interested in having
solace from religion that we underplay today's very real focus on pain.
E.g. http://www.shortvort.com/tisha-bav/10271-tisha-bav-a-day-of-hope "Tisha
b'Av A Day of Hope".

The solace of religion is from it framing the problems of life in more
constructive ways. If you have expectations that it will give you a
formula for instant consolation or happiness, you are bound to be
disappointed. Good marketing, but bad religion.

Tish'ah beAv is about the very large price we have paid to get from
here to there. Leave keeping the eye on the prize for other days.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

The discussion on Areivim about how to avoid caffeine withdrawal headaches 
on Tish'ah beAv got me wondering...

Anyone know grounds for not taking pills on 9 beAv? If we thought they
were achlah, we would be demanding a hekhsher. It's not Yom Kippur,
there the gezeiros of refu'ah beShabbos would apply.

I really have no idea why people spend 9 beAv thinking about pain rather
than taking a caffeinne or headache medication and being able to focus
on the day's lessons.

I assume someone out there does.

Halakhah lemaaseh -- CYLOR, of course!

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

R' Micha Berger asked:
> Anyone know grounds for not taking pills on 9 beAv?

I realize that the question asked for sources l'chumrah. All I found was
this one source l'kulah, but I have not actually looked at *his* sources,
so I invite others to do that.

Rav Shimon Eider's "A Summary of Halachos of the Three Weeks", page 19.
This is in "Chapter V: Prohibitions on Tisha B'Av", so please don't
misconstrue his words to mean only on other fast days. His words are:

"7. Swallowing capsules, bitter medicine tables or bitter liquid medicine without water is permissible."

His sources are: Be'er Hetev 567:7, Yeshuos Yaakov 612, Kaf Hachayim 554:34.

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
The #1 Worst Carb Ever?
Click to Learn #1 Carb that Kills Your Blood Sugar (Don't Eat This!)
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/53e168c7208ba68c71110st01vuc

On 8/5/2014 3:52 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> The difference is that "Vehi sheOmdah" is part of the seder, whereas
> Tish'ah beAv is about qinos. Although admittedly we end Eikhah with
> "chadeish yameinu keqedem", and after 44 qinos we sing Eili Tzion (which
> itself is a downer) to a tune that is more joyous than dirge-like. But
> not wanting to end on the negative note doesn't make the coda the theme.

I'd love to hear what tune you sing it to.  The only one I've ever heard 
is definitely dirge-like.  Maybe not as much as something like Al 
Neharot Bavel, but still.

Lisa

R' Micha Berger wrote:

> I really have no idea why people spend 9 beAv thinking about
> pain rather than taking a caffeinne or headache medication and
> being able to focus on the day's lessons.

The more I think about this, the more I wonder: What's the ikar here? And
what's the tafel? I think that to answer RMB's question, we first need to
clarify exactly what is meant by

> being able to focus on the day's lessons.

The ikar of a fast is not the mere abstinence from eating. But I think that
listening and paying attention to the Kinos is also not the ikar. The ikar
of the fast is *teshuva*.

In other words: If the pain of fasting causes a person to go to bed, and
cry "I wish the fast was over already!", then that is an unfortunate waste
of a fast. But if the pain of fasting causes a person to go to bed, and cry
"I need to do teshuva!", then that is an excellent use of a fast, taking
second place only to the person who actually *does* do teshuva.

But to "focus on the day's lessons"? As important as those lessons are, I wonder if we're missing the forest for the trees.

Or maybe not -- it could easily be argued that what I've written to this
point applies to other fasts, but not to Tisha B'Av: the other fasts are
for teshuva, but Tisha B'av is for aveilus. I could easily see someone
suggesting that for Tisha B'Av one should take the headache medicine in
order to feel the aveilus, but on the other fasts one should avoid the
headache medicine so as to not interfere with the teshuva.

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
Virginia Drivers:
(Aug 2014): New "Rule" Leaves Virginia Drivers Furious!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/53e19113170e9111269a2st01vuc

On Tue, Aug 05, 2014 at 06:26:53PM -0500, Lisa Liel via Avodah wrote:
: >                        ... and after 44 qinos we sing Eili Tzion (which
: >itself is a downer) to a tune that is more joyous than dirge-like...

: I'd love to hear what tune you sing it to.  The only one I've ever
: heard is definitely dirge-like.  Maybe not as much as something like
: Al Neharot Bavel, but still.

Picture what would be your opinion of Wagner y"sh's Bridal Chorus (that
tune typically used at the beginning procession of an American wedding)
if you were first told it was written for a funeral. The staid, formal,
pace of the march can be confused for a dirge if you have that presumption
going in.

In terms of whether that's what the tune was written for;

There are two variants of the tune. One is exactly lik the tune used for
"benei veisekha kevat-chilah" in Mussaf for YT, the other is a slight
variant.

Maoz Tzur's tune is related to Eli Tzion. Also, while it changes keys
a few times, most of EZ is in the more upbeat major. (According to
<http://books.google.com/books?id=8sFFGi16FHkC&;lpg=PA160>, The Folk
Songs of Ashkenaz, vol VI.)

The melody is a motif that floated around. E.g. it's found in Die Frau
zur Weissenbug (12th cent) and in 17th cent Spanish and Czech folk-songs,
and in the 18th cent was used for Lekha Dodi, year-round (not just
during the 9 days). (According to
<http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0
006_0_05863.html>.)

I would agree that something in a minor would better fit the words.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Wed, Aug 06, 2014 at 02:20:36AM +0000, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
: > being able to focus on the day's lessons.

: The ikar of a fast is not the mere abstinence from eating. But I think
: that listening and paying attention to the Kinos is also not the ikar. The
: ikar of the fast is *teshuva*.
...
: But to "focus on the day's lessons"? As important as those lessons are,
: I wonder if we're missing the forest for the trees.

: Or maybe not -- it could easily be argued that what I've written to this
: point applies to other fasts, but not to Tisha B'Av: the other fasts are
: for teshuva, but Tisha B'av is for aveilus...

THe day's lessons could be hirhurei teshuvah or aveilus, I think my
phrasing stands either way.

Someone who is laying in bed with a caffeine headache isn't focusing on
either. His sole thought is "Oy! My head!" pusing out thoughts of the
loss of the Betei Miqdash, the three other tragedies in the gemara, nor
all the human tragedy they led to. And no less, tehuvah becomes difficult.

But this is somewhat tangential. I just wanted to leave it implied that
the chumerah of not even consuming a pill comes with a qulah. Which
is a much weaker claim than saying that the inability to concentrate
ought to motivate a heter. Frankly, I think most posqim would (ideally)
seek permitting the pill just because of the undesirability of the pain
itself, without any "religious" motive.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

(Any mistakes in quoting/paraphrasing are mine, and I would appreciate
correction.)

During his "Live Tisha B'Av Video Shiur: The Alter from
Slabodka on Kamtza and Bar Kamtza" yesterday, RYGB quoted a Medrash
Rabbah explaining that MRAH's unmarked burial place was punishment for his
conduct during the sin of Zimri w/ Kozbi. Leaving aside RYGB's purpose in
quoting that Medrash (which relate to MRAH's seemingly-valid *cheshbonos*
[in refraining from acting himself and instead allowing Pin'chas to act]
not being proper when *halachah* dictates a specific action), (a) how is
such a punishment *midah k'neged midah*/MKM for not acting (is it that
misplaced *anavah* leads to *anivus*, as it were, of the burial place);
(b) why would at least one Medrashic *chacham* consider an unmarked burial
place a punishment (i.e. why not say the purpose was positive, e.g. to
prevent *avodah zarah* at the site); and (c) weren't the burial places
of MRAH's siblings also unmarked (and if so, would the *chacham*[*im*]
behind this Medrash also postulate a MKM punishment of some sort for
Miriam and Aharon)?

Thanks.

All the best from
*Michael Poppers* * Elizabeth, NJ, USA

[See the shiur at
<http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0
006_0_05863.html>
-micha]

The English Artscroll notes that Nero dies 2 years before the churban !

They answer (????) that perhaps he really didnt die but ran away and
converted.
Note that from wikipedia He died on 9 June 68, the anniversary of the death
of Octavia, and was
buried in the Mausoleum of the Domitii Ahenobarbi, in what is now the
Villa Borghese
 (Pincian Hill area of Rome.


I note that the Hebrew artscroll has a discussion of who the gemara is talking
about with Nero Caeser and perhaps it is not the emperor we know as Nero
but some romman commander. They do not bring the strange answer that the
English version brings about Nero running away

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On 5/08/2014 11:02 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> There are two variants of the tune. One is exactly like the tune used for
> "benei veisekha kevat-chilah" in Mussaf for YT, the other is a slight
> variant.

The traditional Litvishe one is a dirge, without any hint of joy, and
the first line is exactly the same as "benei veischo kevatechilo"
and "bechag hamatzos":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDdBplDa5nY


The other one is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOBgXGL0wVo
or, if you don't mind kol isha, a fuller version is here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1_8fMwQNIY
This one does sound a bit joyous though solemnly so.
I *guess* this is the German tradition; can anyone confirm or deny that?
(The first singer also makes the mistake of pronouncing "Eli" with a tzeireh.
Is that really a common mistake?  I don't think I'd ever heard it until today.)

-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

R' Micha Berger wrote:

> Someone who is laying in bed with a caffeine headache isn't
> focusing on either. His sole thought is "Oy! My head!" pushing
> out thoughts of the loss of the Betei Miqdash, the three other
> tragedies in the gemara, nor all the human tragedy they led to.
> And no less, teshuvah becomes difficult.

Yes, I'll agree that such a consuming pain does make it difficult to think
in general, or to do teshuva in particular. But it has value as kaparah as
well, and I don't think that should be discounted.  (And I do suspect that
the pleasure-seeking society around us does tend to discount it.)

> But this is somewhat tangential. I just wanted to leave it
> implied that the chumerah of not even consuming a pill comes
> with a qulah. Which is a much weaker claim than saying that the
> inability to concentrate ought to motivate a heter. Frankly, I
> think most posqim would (ideally) seek permitting the pill just
> because of the undesirability of the pain itself, without any
> "religious" motive.

I would love to hear others' thoughts on this. Even in the hypothetical
case where there is no religious motive, can we presume that pain is
undesirable? And all the more so where there *is* a religious motive.

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
The #1 Worst Carb Ever?
Click to Learn #1 Carb that Kills Your Blood Sugar (Don't Eat This!)
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The following is from 
http://lookstein.org/lookjed/read.php?1,22368,22374#msg-22374

Let me make myself crystal clear. Besides i) vehemently disagreeing 
that Maimonides looked at Sacrifices as a concession to the times 
(See my article 
[<http://www.Rashiyomi.com/rambam.
pdf>www.Rashiyomi.com] ) I
also 
disagree ii) we should accept korbanoth as no different than killing 
animals for hot dogs. I suggest an aggressive approach: iii) 
Korbanoth are the Jewish approach to psychology. They are superior to 
secular psychology. They should be part of our everyday conversations 
and should be how we approach psychological problems we face.

Let me give one example (courtesy of Rav Hirsch) Suppose you meet a 
person who is down with symptoms of depression. I would use the 
Korbanoth approach. If the person is not poor, I would suggest 
reminding him of all his past accomplishments (symbolized by the 
blood of a sin offering being placed on the top of the altar). 
However if the person is poor I would emphasize that with hard work 
the person can partially accomplish goals and should not give up 
(Symbolized by the blood of a bird (=poverty) sin offering being 
thrown midway up the altar). I would then follow up on this advice of 
korbanoth: Does the poor person have a job; can they change jobs; do 
they know how to follow up on job networks; do they realize that 
their efforts will probably only meet with half success (blood to the 
half way mark). If the person is not poor I would ask them what 
project is falling apart. I would go over principles of project 
management and ask them to state their goals achieved till now (Blood on top).

This is a small example but it exemplifies an approach: All social 
and psychological problems should be solved, whether with couples, 
parents, teachers or political leaders, through appeal to korbanoth. 
This is the spirit in which I wrote the article. I have explained 
what I can in the small space allotted to me and hope people will 
read the article.

See the above URL for more.   YL
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