Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 116

Mon, 04 Aug 2014

• 1. flat earth and kabbala (Eli Turkel)
• 2. Re: hishtadlus ()
• 3. Error in Magen Avraham 428 (Motti Yarchinai)
• 4. Admin: AishDas Elul Event (Kaganoff)
• 5. Re: flat earth (Avi Goldstein)
• 6. Re: flat earth (Micha Berger)
• 7. Was Rav Yosef Caro a Rishon? (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Was Rav Yosef Caro a Rishon? (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: Common Kashrus Misconceptions (Rafael Jason Hecht)
• 10. Re: Was Rav Yosef Caro a Rishon? (Micha Berger)
• 11. Shabbat Chazon ()
• 12. Re: Flat Earth (Avi Goldstein)
• 13. identifying a death of a soldier (Eli Turkel)
• 14. Tisha B'Av: Jerusalem Won't Be the Same, It Will Be Better | Rafi Hecht | Ops & Blogs | The Times of Israel (Rafael Jason Hecht)

<<RAAVAD ATTACKS BAAL HAMAOR
We have today the full text of Kasuv Sham, printed magnificently in the
back of newly printed Gmaras. Raavad clearly mocked the entire astronomical
presumption [pun intended] of Baal Hamaor.  He claimed that the "old way"
of learning the Sugya was better.>>

Note that the Raavad also mocks (cant find a better word) the Rambam on
kiddush hachodesh and says that he managed without knowing all the astronomy

-- 
Eli Turkel
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from Toby Katz
 
From: Kenneth Miller via Avodah _avodah@lists.aishdas.org_ 
(mailto:avo...@lists.aishdas.org) 



>  There is value to minimizing the amount of neis required. It is
> possible  for a person to earn the HP necessary to be saved al derekh
> hateva, but  the more unnatural the saving would have to be, the less
> likely he is to  merit it.[--RMB]

I have heard this to be a reason why some people avoid  mentioning the name 
of the specific disease that a relative has. When the  general community is 
unaware of the details, a refuah would not be such a  glaringly big neis. 
But if everyone knows the details, only a major neis will  cure him.

Akiva Miller
 


>>>>
 
Similar is the idea that you shouldn't count the money in your wallet  
because if you know exactly how much you have in there, it would take a neis for 
 Hashem to put some more money in there.  
 
 


--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============





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I have found what appears to be a grave error in the Magen Avraham's
commentary to Shulchan Aruch, ch 428. I have detailed the error in a pdf
document available at:? tiny.cc/magenavraham428

If anyone can shed any light on it, I would be interested to hear what they have to say.
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Hello,

I am putting out feelers if there is an interest in having an AishDas
Society program for either Elul or the Yamim Noraim.

Micha Berger has given his tentative approval for such an event.

Is anyone interested in either having such an event and/or helping out
put it together?

Feel free to respond to me privately.

Yonatan Kaganoff

Micha Berger writes:
This very argument between the Jewish sages and the Gentile wise
    men was raised again in Bereshit Rabbah 6:8, only this time between
    R. Yehuda bar Ilai and the sages. One side argued that the sun sets
    going up, implying that the sun at night goes above the sky. The
    other side argued that the sun sets going down, implying that the
    sun at night goes around the earth. (Who said what depends on the
    edition. Compare the Venice and Vilna editions.) R' Yochanan then
    said that there is a proof to either side and R' Shimon bar Yochai is
    quoted as saying that we cannot determine which side is correct. In
    other words, R' Yochanan and R' Shimon bar Yochai were not sure
    whether the earth is round or flat.

This is incorrect; the debate between the Sages and the gentile wise men
has nothing to do with the shape of the earth. Both assume a flat earth.
Indeed, the Maharzov, R' Zev Wolf Einhorn, writes in his commentary on this
passage that the assumption here is that the world is flat. The only issue
is where the sun "goes" at night.
There are so many other indications that Chazal viewed the earth's surface
as flat. Among them: the Aggadta in Bava Basra, in HaMocher es HaSphinah,
where Rabbah bar Bar Chanah is shown the place where the ground meets the
sky; the Mishnah in Menachos 68, which states that Chadash may be eaten
anywhere at noon, with the assumption that the korban haOmer has been
brought, disregarding the fact that time zones to the east of Jerusalem
experience noon before it is noon in Jerusalem; the Gemara in Chagiga 12,
which talks about Adam HaRishon lying down from one end of the earth to the
other; and more. (Judah Landa makes  the point about the Mishnah in
Menachos; I know that it can be disputed, it is just one snif.)
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On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 02:37:09PM -0400, Avi Goldstein via Avodah wrote:
: Micha Berger [... quoted R' Gil Student]:
:     This very argument between the Jewish sages and the Gentile wise
:     men was raised again in Bereshit Rabbah 6:8, only this time between
:     R. Yehuda bar Ilai and the sages. One side argued that the sun sets
:     going up, implying that the sun at night goes above the sky. The
:     other side argued that the sun sets going down, implying that the
:     sun at night goes around the earth. (Who said what depends on the
:     edition. Compare the Venice and Vilna editions.) R' Yochanan then
:     said that there is a proof to either side and R' Shimon bar Yochai is
:     quoted as saying that we cannot determine which side is correct. In
:     other words, R' Yochanan and R' Shimon bar Yochai were not sure
:     whether the earth is round or flat.

: This is incorrect; the debate between the Sages and the gentile wise men
: has nothing to do with the shape of the earth. Both assume a flat earth.
: Indeed, the Maharzov, R' Zev Wolf Einhorn, writes in his commentary on this
: passage that the assumption here is that the world is flat...

The above was from RGS, but I agree with what I quoted. Simply because
we have the records from the academies in question, and we know that
the empires in which chazal lived both believed the world was round.

Yes, there was no debate about the shape of the worlds: The Romans had
a Copernican universe, with the earth as a sphere in the middle, the
tannaim and early amoraim describe something consistent with the Persian
universe, in which the world is a sphere whose bottom half is immersed
in water. I am assuming they actually do believe the Persian version,
rahter than describe their own astronomy that happens to be consistent
with Persian WRT where the sun goes, the semispherical shell of a sky,
etc... but has a flat world under it.

The RZWEinhorn's peshat in the gemara isn't the only possible way of
understanding it. However, it's problematic on simple historical grounds.
The "Romans" who ran Israel at the time spoke Greek (despite Mel Gibson's
movie) -- they were part of a culture that accepted the sphericity of
the earth 600 - 700 years prior.

: There are so many other indications that Chazal viewed the earth's surface
: as flat. Among them: the Aggadta in Bava Basra, in HaMocher es HaSphinah,
: where Rabbah bar Bar Chanah is shown the place where the ground meets the
: sky...


RBBC is centuries before our gemara. And he lived under Hasmonians, not
directly under the Romans. It's hard to generalize from a very early
tanna to Chazal as a whole.

In any case, deducing this kind of thing from an aggadic miracle story
is like listening to the daily statistics given in a 21st cent weather
report and believing that we today are geocentrists who believe the sun
rises and sets.

: anywhere at noon, with the assumption that the korban haOmer has been
: brought, disregarding the fact that time zones to the east of Jerusalem
: experience noon before it is noon in Jerusalem; the Gemara in Chagiga 12,
: which talks about Adam HaRishon lying down from one end of the earth to the
: other; and more....

The land-mass, roughly the same as the Persians' half of the world above
the water, but in any case the Europe-Asia-Africa landmass is "the aretz"
in this context. No? And if so, nothing to do with the shape of the
earth.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

The question was raised on Areivim: Were the Mechaber and the Rama
rishonim or acharonim?

I replied there, because I thought we did the topic here before, but
since the interest is obviously present, I thought we might go beyond
prior discussion if I re-open the topic here on Avodah.

R' Ovadiah Yosef lists three shitos addressing how to deal with a
machloqes between the Beis Yoseif, the SA or one of the Mechaber's
teshuvos:

1- Shu"t involve someone wanting to know what to do, and therefore
receive more siyata diShmaya than do codes. So shu"t have the most
authority.

2- Whatever an author wrote last is more authoritative, so the SA
trumps the BY, and you have to know when the teshuvah was written.
Although the vast majority of his shu"t were after the SA.

3- The line between rishon and acharon is the SA because we accepted
it as the defining summary of the genre. Presumably this means that
Ashkenazic rishonim end with the Rama, but that's my own deduction.

When I was young, father repeated a version of #3 besheim RYBS, and
more recently I heard similar sentiments on MP3s by RARakeffetR:

You're allowed to pasqen against the SA, but you need to have a realy
good reason to do so. The rabbanim we call acharonim are those subject
to this rule. The rabbanim we call rishonim are those we can cite
as part of that "really good reason".

Theory #3 is also part of one of my contributions to the SCJ(M) FAQ,
which has layers of additions since (including a non-O sentence tacked
on the end), but is at
http://www.shamash.org/lists/scj-faq/HTML/faq/04-03.html
So, if we make significant corrections to my understanding, we should
inform the maintainer, Daniel P. Faigin.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

My understanding is that the Mechaber and the Shita Mekubetzes were not
rishonim; rishonim primarily interpret the gemara, and that era was over,
and now began an era of interpreting the rishonim.

R Mattis Kantor has a theory that the 16th century was an era in which the
primary task was compiling the work of the rishonim and deciding among
them, rather than interpreting and deriving new insights from them.
He therefore calls this era "kov'im", and regards their relation to the
rishonim as somewhat akin to that of the rabbanan sevora'i to the amora'im.
He starts the era of acharonim once the codes had been written and people
started to be mechadesh again, but this time based on the rishonim rather
than directly on the gemara.

I enjoyed it so much I transcribed it here:
http://www.mywesternwall.
net/2014/07/31/top-10-common-kashrus-misconceptions-ten-minute-halacha-r-ar
yeh-lebowitz.html

Best Regards,

Rafi Hecht
*rhe...@gmail.com* <rhe...@gmail.com>

-------------------------------------------------------


<http://ca.linkedin.com/in/rafihecht>
*Facebook:* *http://www.facebook.com/rhecht*
<http://www.facebook.com/rhecht>
*Twitter:* *https://www.twitter.com/#!/rafihecht*
<https://www.twitter.com/#!/rafihecht>
*Personal Site:* *www.rafihecht.com* <http://www.rafihecht.com>



On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 9:38 AM, Prof. Levine <llev...@stevens.edu> wrote:

> You may want to listen to the talk by Rabbi Aryeh Lebowitz at
> http://tinyurl.com/n2w6dn7  IMO he makes a number of very important
> points.
>
> YL
>
>
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On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 09:03:54PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: My understanding is that the Mechaber and the Shita Mekubetzes were not
: rishonim; rishonim primarily interpret the gemara, and that era was over,
: and now began an era of interpreting the rishonim.

You and I are talking about different things. Historians of halakhah
and posqim use the same terms "rishon" and "acharon", but mean different
things by then.

Whether a rishon's shitah actually carries more authority, or it's a
convention to accord them that respect, a poseiq does end up treating
that shitah different than an acharon. And so, RYBS's model of saying a
rishon is someone whose shitah could justify my choosing not to hold like
the SA, where as an acharon is someone who is expected to provide such
justification before differing, fits that sense of rishon vs acharon.

And fits whomever it was ROY cited among the shitos I mentioned in the
prior post.

That is a different question than asking when did rabbis get so caught
up in interpreting all the rishonic material than they stopped looking
at the gemara (and other sifrei chazal) with a clean slate approach.
The two questions are related, but there could well be a time lag between
the two switchovers. (I am arguing that indeed there was.)

: R Mattis Kantor has a theory that the 16th century was an era in which the
: primary task was compiling the work of the rishonim and deciding among
: them, rather than interpreting and deriving new insights from them.

: He therefore calls this era "kov'im", and regards their relation to the
: rishonim as somewhat akin to that of the rabbanan sevora'i to the amora'im.

In terms of the aurthority question, we appear to treat geonim and
rishonim as equals -- the two historical periods are one era in terms
of halachic progress. The change in mode of learning didn't cause a
change in authorty. And so the same could happen again.

Savora'im are more complicated; things they wrote in their own sefarim
are ge'onic, and therefore effectively they and rishonim are all one
-- as legal precedent goes. But as for what did get into the gemara,
most rishonim consider them as authoritative as an amora. The Rambam
considers stam Bavli to be less authoritative than a named opinion in
the Y-mi (according to the Gra), and appears to have never quoted a
named or presumed savoraic addition.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

The journey to Eretz Yisroel which constitutes the subject of
this week?s Torah portion, begins with the unique statement,
wherein Moses (in the name of God) tells Israel: ?You have 
dwelt long enough at this mountain?, meaning Sinai. Turn now
and begin your journey to the Promised Land. 
On this Shabbos preceding Tisha B?Av, the above mentioned 
message challenges us to remember that living in a period of 
Jewish history when the era of the galut is drawing to a close,
we must be on guard against abandoning hope, especially at
the present state of affairs in Israel. The return to the Promised
Land must not be a denial of our great past. Instead, let us take
along the things we accomplished while dwelling at Mt Sinai and 
build our future upon it.
Shabbat shalom

Micha Berger wrote:

 The Zohar on Vayikra p. 10a says something relevant. While one can
    never be sure whether the Zohar is The Zohar on Vayikra p. 10a says
something relevant. While one can
    never be sure whether the Zohar is speaking of the physical world
    or the spiritual world, we will quote it anyway with the reader
    forewarned. The Zohar says, "In the book of Rav Hamnuna Sava it is
    explained that all the world rolls in a circle like a ball... There
    are places in the world that when it is light for those on one side
    of the sphere it is dark for those on the other."

This proves nothing about how the Sages of the Gemara viewed the earth's
shape. It does, however, indicate that the Zohar (at least parts of it) is
of much more recent vintage than the Gemara. By the time the Zohar
appeared, many more people were aware of the earth's spherical shape. This
view is reflected here in the Zohar and probably in the work of the Ba'al
HaMaor as well.
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How the IDF rabbinate determines that a soldier died

http
://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Jewish-News/How-the-IDF-chief-rabbinate-deter
mines-death-of-a-soldier-whose-remains-are-not-found-369939

-- 
Eli Turkel
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"To those who say that our City will never be the same, I say you are
right. It will be better." These were words voiced by former New York City
Mayor Rudy Giuliani right after the damnable events that occurred on Sept.
11, 2001, killing more than 3,000 people and forever changing the world
as we knew it with regards to the global economy, airport security,
and the never-ending "War on Terror" that resulted from the attacks.

Having lived in Brooklyn when the attacks occurred, I recall watching
on T.V. replays of the attacks as well as the aftermath. I remember
seeing members of Al Qaeda along with other Arabs dancing in the streets,
chanting "Death to America!" These attacks posed a threat not only to the
United States' security, but in a way to Westernization and democracy
as a whole. With affirmative action it appears that Rudy Giuliani's
words are coming to fruition. New York City for all its shortcomings
has become stronger and more resilient in the face of terror.

Backtrack close to 2,000 years: on Tisha B'Av, 70 CE the holy Beit
Hamikdash was destroyed, Jerusalem was in ruins and Israel was in a
complete state of disarray. Throughout the following years there were
more revolts, most famous among them the Bar Kochba revolt, that were
squelched by the Romans. During the Bar Kochba revolt in 132 C.E.,
in an attempt to minimize Israel's identification with the land, the
Romans renamed Israel to be Palestine.

It has long been a belief that when Moshiach ben Yosef dies in battle
and Moshiach ben David ascends his rightful throne as king of Israel,
that true world peace will be established. Swords will be beaten into
plowshares, fruits will grow a-plenty, and Israelites will be gathered
from the four corners of the earth.

There are those that feel that the prophecies are being fulfilled
right before our very eyes. Organizations like Shavei Israel are doing
a remarkable job by bringing long-lost Jews back to Israel to reclaim
their heritage. Jews in Israel have made a land that was for centuries a
swamp-ridden desert into a garden producing arguably the best fruits and
vegetables of the world. Israel has become top of the line in researching
and developing cutting-edge technology not only for military defense,
but also for the rest of the world to enjoy, making us a true Light
Unto the Nations. As early as 2015 the world may be seeing for the
first time a flying car, developed by Urban Aeronautics in Israel. In my
humble opinion this flying car can represent the fabled "white donkey"
that Moshiach is to ride on.

But Moshiach still hasn't arrived yet. Jerusalem is still without a
Beit Hamikdash. The world still condemns Israel, refuses to publicly
declare Jerusalem as Israel's capital (even though it is), and many of our
children are fighting for the tiny country's very survival, risking their
lives each and every moment. We still are mourning on Tisha B'Av. Once
Moshiach does eventually arrive Tisha B'Av and other fast days will be
days of joy. Until then, we are all lacking something very important.

I therefore have reason to believe that as much Bracha as there is in
Israel today, once Moshiach does arrive and our holy Beit Hamikdash
somehow does get restored, Jerusalem, Israel and the entire world as
we know it will never be the same. To paraphrase Guiliani, "it will
be better."

Have a meaningful fast!

Read more:
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/tisha-bav-jerusalem-wont-
be-the-same-it-will-be-better/

Best Regards,
Rafi Hecht
rhe...@gmail.com

--
LinkedIN: http://ca.linkedin.com/in/rafihecht 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/rhecht 
Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/#!/rafihecht 
Personal Site: www.rafihecht.com <http://www.rafihecht.com>


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