Volume 32: Number 111
Mon, 21 Jul 2014
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Zev Sero
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2014 17:11:19 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Rashi (was: midianite survivors)
On 17/07/2014 5:04 PM, Allan Engel wrote:
> On 17 July 2014 20:01, Zev Sero wrote:
>> Rashi only ever gives peshat, and those medrashim that are necessary for peshat.
>> When he does give a medrash, he omits any part of it that's not necessary for
>> peshat.
> This is quite an incredible claim, and one that even his grandson the
> Rashbam openly disputes.
It's what Rashi himself wrote explicitly was his method, and if you learn the
LR's explanations you'll see how it explains why Rashi's quotes from medrashim
are usually only partial.
On 17/07/2014 5:12 PM, Allan Engel wrote:
> So how, for example, do you understand the Rashi on 'Tzefardea'?
That the peshat itself is insufficient to understand the pasuk; some
difficulty remains, even after explaining the grammatical form, so that
even for a basic understanding one must resort to the medrash. But he
doesn't quote the whole medrash, only as much as he thinks is necessary
to resolve the difficulties with the grammatical explanation.
See http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=16076&;pgnum=94
in particular see page 98, column 1, 2nd paragraph, and page 99, column 2,
last paragraph.
--
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name
- Eric Raymond
Go to top.
Message: 2
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2014 18:05:01 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Rashi (was: midianite survivors)
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 10:04:23PM +0100, Allan Engel via Avodah wrote:
: This is quite an incredible claim, and one that even his grandson the
: Rashbam openly disputes.
I think Rashi and Rashbam differ on the definition of peshat.
AISI, and we've discussed this every few years or so, it's not that Rashi
veers from peshat, it's that he includes as peshat every medrash that
addresses a grammatical anomaly he couldn't otherwise explain. To Rashi,
peshat means explaining the words. However, to the Rashbam, these same
thoughts would qualify as medrash because they aren't fully contained
in the words themselves.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
Go to top.
Message: 3
From: via Avodah
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2014 20:41:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Rashi (was: midianite survivors)
From Toby Katz
> Rashi only ever gives peshat, and those medrashim that are necessary for
> peshat. When he does give a medrash, he omits any part of it that's not
necessary
> for peshat. [--R' Zev Sero]
This is quite an incredible claim, and one that even his grandson the
Rashbam openly disputes. [--R' Allan Engel]
>>>>>
Rashi himself says in a number of places that he only comes to explain the
pshat. Whenever he quotes a midrash (sometimes as a second explanation
after giving the pshat) it is because of something in the pasuk that needs
explaining -- and that isn't fully explained by his first explanation. The
medrash that Rashi quotes always addresses some difficulty in the text, in
the pasuk.
See the excellent five-volume set, *What's Bothering Rashi?" by R' Avigdor
Bonchek.
http://www.feldheim.com/what-s-bothering-rashi.html
--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============
-------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20140717/8698c129/attachment-0001.htm>
Go to top.
Message: 4
From: Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2014 18:59:19 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] the International Dateline and the shape of the
I am mystified. Does anyone think Rabbeinu Tam and the Gra did not know
"an efener" Yerushalmi?
See it cited at
http://he.
wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%93%D7%9C_%D7%94%D7%90%D7%A8%D7%A5_%D7%9B
%D7%9B%D7%93%D7%95%D7%A8#.D7.94.D7.90.D7.A1.D7.9B.D7.95.D7.9C.D7.95.D7.AA_.
D7.94.D7.99.D7.94.D7.95.D7.93.D7.99.D7.95.D7.AA
(the Hebrew Wikipedia entry on the earth as a sphere)
Also, in translation, at
http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/401
52/sources-for-the-world-being-round-in-the-gemara
KT,
YGB
> On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 03:00:28PM -0400, Avi Goldstein via Avodah wrote:
> : There are numerous proofs that Chazal held the world to be flat. Among
> : those proofs is the fact (proof by omission) that there is no discussion of
> : the International Dateline in the Gemara, a connection that apparently is
> : being missed in the discussion here.
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20140717/9c46f480/attachment-0001.htm>
Go to top.
Message: 5
From: Avi Goldstein
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2014 20:32:32 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] the International Dateline and the shape of the
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 6:59 PM, Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer <r...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> I am mystified. Does anyone think Rabbeinu Tam and the Gra did not know
> "an efener" Yerushalmi?
> See it cited at
> http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%93%D7%9C_%D7%94%D7%9
> 0%D7%A8%D7%A5_%D7%9B%D7%9B%D7%93%D7%95%D7%A8#.D7.94.D7.90.D7.A1.D7.9B.
> D7.95.D7.9C.D7.95.D7.AA_.D7.94.D7.99.D7.94.D7.95.D7.93.D7.99.D7.95.D7.
> AA
> (the Hebrew Wikipedia entry on the earth as a sphere)
It is most certainly not an "ofener Yerushalmi." The Yerushalmi says
(and this is what Tosafos quotes on Avodah Zarah 41a that Alexander
saw the world as a kadur, a ball, and the sea "ki'k'arah." This says
absolutely nothing about the shape of the earth's surface. Rather, it
means that (as someone looking from space would see) the earth's "dome"
is just that. (As an aside, it is impossible for anyone to see a full
ball; you can only see half a ball when looking down upon it.)
As for the sea, it is as a plate. Here we clearly have Chazal's view
of the earth's shape: a flat land mass surrounded by a plate-like sea,
somewhat like an ice-cream scoop on a plate.
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 4:52 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> It was indeed discussed here. Given the size the Greeks thought the world
> was and their not knowing about the Americas, no one would be trying to
> circumnavigate the globe. They simly didn't know about Japan (or if the
> line is 90deg from Y-m, New Zealand and Indochina) to raise the question.
> So there is really no proof from silence here. It wasn't a reasonable
> question for them to explore.
...
> Pashut peshat, without Rabbeinu Tam for the moment, is that nir'eh
> divreihem midivreinu is like nir'eh li, and Rebbe is saying that the
> Ptolemaic universe makes more sense than the Persian model. Rabbeinu Tam's
> idea that "nir'eh" means looks like but is still wrong is really a dochaq.
...
> And for that matter, RYGB's assertion that the Persian Model (also
> that of chakhmei Yisrael, at least until this point, in which the
> sun goes over a semispherical sky at night) also presumes a round earth
> also seems to hold. The debate would apparently be more about whether
> is was a spheroid or a hemisphere.
...
> But on our original topic, I think it's important to note that given
> that they had both theory and obseration, this wasn't that the numbers
> emerge from the theory. Rather, would only subscribe to models of the
> universe that fit the observed zemanim.
The Gemara discusses some of the most hypothetical situations imaginable,
such as a tahor animal birthing a tamei animal, evidently seeing
the necessity to decide even the most unlikely issue. To say, then,
that they did not feel the need to discuss the Dateline is a position
hard to justify. Keep in mind that it is not just Japan, New Zealand,
etc. The placement of the dateline affects all regions. For example,
if the Dateline were to run through Syria, then Bavel would be on a
different date than Eretz Yisrael.
It is only in a round world that a dateline comes into play. A flat world
has the same time zone and time (within a few minutes) everywhere. (Also,
why do you find it less bothersome for Chazal not to know about New
Zealand than it is for them not to know about a spherical earth?)
Notwithstanding the Gemara in Chagigah that has already been mentioned,
other sources for a flat world abound. An example is the Rabbah bar bar
Chanah agaddta in Bava Basra, where he is taken to the place where the
sky meets the earth. Granted that the aggadta is not literal, it still
indicates the picture of the earth that Chazal had: a flat surface
surrounded by a hard sky cap.
The debate in Pesachim between Chazal and the scientists does not concern
the shape of the land/sea mass; it only concerns where the sun goes at
night. Yet even there we see that Chazal thought the earth to be flat. The
Gemara states the likelihood is that the chachmei ha'umos are correct that
the sun goes under the earth at night. The reason, states the Gemara,
is that the sun is under the earth heating the water at night. How this
can be construed to reflect a spherical earth, I do not know.
Further Rashi says elsewhere, regarding mayim shelanu, that during colder
seasons the water is warmer at night because the sun is closer to the
water in the winter/spring than in the summer. This clearly reflects
Chazal's view of a flat land mass surrounded and immersed in water. In
actuality, the sun is no closer to the water during the winter than it
is in the summer. It would only appear that way to an observer who is
unaware that the earth is spherical.
Go to top.
Message: 6
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2014 22:04:17 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] the International Dateline and the shape of the
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 08:32:32PM -0400, Avi Goldstein via Avodah wrote:
: Notwithstanding the Gemara in Chagigah that has already been mentioned,
: other sources for a flat world abound. An example is the Rabbah bar bar
: Chanah agaddta in Bava Basra, where he is taken to the place where the
: sky meets the earth. Granted that the aggadta is not literal, it still
: indicates the picture of the earth that Chazal had: a flat surface
: surrounded by a hard sky cap.
Chazal aren't one person, and may not have the same opinion on this.
Particularly if we compare tannaim before Rebbe's realization, Rebbe's
talmidim, other amora'ei EY, and someone like RBBC in Bavel. It's going
to catch on later in Bavel than in EY, since EY is in the Roman Empire,
while Bavel was ruled by the Sassanids.
: Further Rashi says elsewhere, regarding mayim shelanu, that during colder
: seasons the water is warmer at night because the sun is closer to the
: water in the winter/spring than in the summer. This clearly reflects
: Chazal's view of a flat land mass surrounded and immersed in water...
More likely a spherical land mass floating in water.
The Persian model works better if people are depicted as living on the cop
half of a sphere, or on a hemisphere. Because the sky is a semisphere and
depicted as a constant height above the earth. The east and west weren't
known to be warmer and closer to the sun than the middle of the Old World.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger The mind is a wonderful organ
mi...@aishdas.org for justifying decisions
http://www.aishdas.org the heart already reached.
Fax: (270) 514-1507
Go to top.
Message: 7
From: Zev Sero
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2014 22:10:33 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] the International Dateline and the shape of the
On 17/07/2014 8:32 PM, Avi Goldstein via Avodah wrote:
> The Gemara discusses some of the most hypothetical situations imaginable,
> such as a tahor animal birthing a tamei animal, evidently seeing
> the necessity to decide even the most unlikely issue. To say, then,
> that they did not feel the need to discuss the Dateline is a position
> hard to justify. Keep in mind that it is not just Japan, New Zealand,
> etc. The placement of the dateline affects all regions. For example,
> if the Dateline were to run through Syria, then Bavel would be on a
> different date than Eretz Yisrael.
It was obvious to everyone at the time, including Chazal, that the whole Yishuv
(the landmass that was thought to cover most of the upper hemisphere) was all
on the same calendar, and that one who circumnavigated the globe would have
to change dates when he reached the opposite shore of the Yishuv. If there
was to be a specific line where the date changed, it must be somewhere in the
Yam which made up the bottom hemisphere. It simply didn't matter where in that
yam the line was drawn, or indeed that it should be drawn at some specific place.
The Baal Hamaor was no different. He assumed that the line was drawn at the
eastern edge of the Yishuv, but he also assumed that there was nothing beyond
that line until you got to the western edge of the Yishuv. It seemed to him
that the whole yam belonged with the west, rather than splitting it in the
middle or in some other place. But this was completely theoretical to him.
He wasn't paskening lehalacha, because it wasn't relevant to any halacha.
> Also, why do you find it less bothersome for Chazal not to know about New
> Zealand than it is for them not to know about a spherical earth?
Why should they have known about New Zealand? And why are you even bringing
up New Zealand rather than America, which is surely the big kahuna, so to
speak?
--
Zev Sero Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name from malice.
- Eric Raymond
Go to top.
Message: 8
From: Kenneth Miller
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2014 02:38:13 GMT
Subject: Re: [Avodah] the International Dateline and the shape of the
R' Micha Berger offered:
> More likely a spherical land mass floating in water.
You've mentioned this many times, but I just can't see it. NOT because of
any science I've learned, but simply by looking at the shape of a ball, and
seeing how only a relatively small area near the top would be parallel to
the water that the ball is floating in.
To believe that idea is to beleive that ALL of human civilization lived
pretty near the top of that land mass. Anyone who lived too far from the
top would have observed all of the land in his area to be on an incline.
But mo matter how mountainous or hilly an area might be, I don't believe
anyone ever beleived they were living on the side of a ball. And there's
just not enough room at the top of it. If Eretz Yisrael was at the top of
this ball, then Bavel and Mitzrayim would notice a disinct tilt to the
ground. And in most of Europe, anything not tied down would just be roll
downhill to England.
Alternatively, the diameter of this ball would have had to be more like
50-100 thousand miles. Only with such a gigantic ball could all of humanity
be so close to the top that the ground seems flat.
Or did I miss something?
Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
Odd Carb-Hormone Trick
1 EASY tip to increase fat-burning, lower blood sugar & decrease fat storage
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/53c888d68c5bd8d6318ast03vuc
Go to top.
Message: 9
From: Avi Goldstein
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2014 22:40:06 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] the International Dateline and the shape of the
> On 07/17/2014 08:32 PM, Avi Goldstein wrote:
>> As for the sea, it is as a plate. Here we clearly have Chazal's view of
>> the earth's shape: a flat land mass surrounded by a plate-like sea,
>> somewhat like an ice-cream scoop on a plate.
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 10:08 PM, Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer <r...@aishdas.org>
wrote:
> Then the entire concept of Avodah Zarah k'kadur would make no sense.
> You really think Reb Yosef Engel had the wrong pshat in the Y-mi and you
> have the right pshat?
The concept makes perfect sense; it simply expresses the (supposed)
dominion of the avodah zarah. The Mishnah and Gemara also state that an
avodah zarah may be holding a staff or a bird; this does not mean that
the earth is shaped as a staff or a bird!
As for Rav Yosef Engel, I do believe my pshat is correct. Moreover,
I don't believe there is any other way to learn this Yerushalmi. To
assert that the Yerushalmi meant that the earth's surface is spherical
is to read something into the text that is not there. And we have no
right to do that.
>> Then the entire concept of Avodah Zarah k'kadur would make no sense.
>> You really think Reb Yosef Engel had the wrong pshat in the Y-mi and you
>> have the right pshat?
Go to top.
Message: 10
From: Micha Berger
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2014 11:40:44 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] When is a Gezeira Made?
A number of times, more often in the lists earlier past, we looked for
a reason why there is a gezeira to protect against violation in one
instance, but not a parallel one that would prevent what seems like a
much more likely scenario.
I suggested that one explanation could be that taqanos were only made in
response to actual incidents. And so, if one situation happened and the
other not, the after-effects could leave us scrathing our heads. But, I
hadn't known any sources, it was just a hypothesis. And no one responded
to my request for backing.
Today's AhS OC 180:5 appears to be saying just that. The qadmonim record
a minhag to cover the knives before bentching on weekdays, but no such
minhag exists for Shabbos and YT. The reasons for this minhag are (1)
shulchan domeh lamizbeiach ("lo sanif aleihem barzel") and (2) a story
of someone who was so overwhelmed with sadness when he said "uVnei
Y-m" he killed himself (c.f. Beis Yoseif). And that's when they made the
gezeira. "Velo gazru beShabbos veYT, dema'ase ki hava bechol havah".
And also that it is assur to pain oneself, so this wouldn't happen. But
it's the other part that's relevant to my point.
The AhS compares this to sandal hamsumar, Shabbos 60b. One can't wear
nailed sandals on Shabbos, nor (if both feet are healthy) with only
one sandal. There are three stories given by different amoraim where
people panicked because the enemy was coming either because of the noise
of the nails on the floor or that the nailed sandals was why the resulting
stampede was fatal.
The gemara asks, if so, why only on Shabbos? And the answer: because
the episode happened on Shabbos?
So then why is YT included in the gezira? And they say that it's similar
enough to Shabbos, because they are days of gathering?
And not taaniyos?
Well, days of gathering at issur melakhah.
Masqanah -- taqanah is not only caused by an incident, but limited to
where critical elements that led to the incident obtain.
:-)BBii!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger If a person does not recognize one's own worth,
mi...@aishdas.org how can he appreciate the worth of another?
http://www.aishdas.org - Rabbi Yaakov Yosef of Polnoye,
Fax: (270) 514-1507 author of Toldos Yaakov Yosef
Go to top.
Message: 11
From: Kenneth Miller
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2014 18:08:18 GMT
Subject: Re: [Avodah] When is a Gezeira Made?
R' Micha Berger wrote:
> I suggested that one explanation could be that taqanos were only
> made in response to actual incidents.
One example that crosses my mind is when the kohanim were racing up the
ramp to the mizbe'ach, and one got pushed off and died. So in response, the
races were halted and the lottery was instituted.
I often think of that story, and I have to wonder: I can't imagine that
there had not been a few close calls prior to that incident. Surely there
had been a few crashes and falls, but with nothing bruised more than an
ego, everyone just got up and continued. It was only when someone died that
the rules got changed.
And so, today, when someone cites a statistic about some item or action
being very dangerous, and they scream, "When will they fix this?!?!? Is
someone going to have to die before they realize how serious this is?!?!?"
- I often wonder if we have strong precedent to answer, "Yes indeed. When
someone dies, that's when we'll fix it, but for now, we'll manage."
Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
Odd Carb-Hormone Trick
1 EASY tip to increase fat-burning, lower blood sugar & decrease fat storage
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/53c962ec79ace62ec39a5st01vuc
Go to top.
Message: 12
From: Zev Sero
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2014 15:16:05 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] When is a Gezeira Made?
On 18/07/2014 2:08 PM, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
> And so, today, when someone cites a statistic about some item or
> action being very dangerous, and they scream, "When will they fix
> this?!?!? Is someone going to have to die before they realize how
> serious this is?!?!?" - I often wonder if we have strong precedent to
> answer, "Yes indeed. When someone dies, that's when we'll fix it, but
> for now, we'll manage."
Not *when* someone dies. *If* someone dies. If we already know someone is
likely to die then we should do something now. But if the current situation
seems safe enough, and despite a few mishaps we don't think anyone is ever
likely to die, then we have no reason to panic and be overprotective. If
events prove us wrong, then we'll fix it.
--
Zev Sero Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name from malice.
- Eric Raymond
Go to top.
Message: 13
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 19:02:08 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] the International Dateline and the shape of the
On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 02:38:13AM +0000, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
: R' Micha Berger offered:
:> More likely a spherical land mass floating in water.
:
: You've mentioned this many times, but I just can't see it. NOT because
: of any science I've learned, but simply by looking at the shape of a
: ball, and seeing how only a relatively small area near the top would be
: parallel to the water that the ball is floating in.
My general bent in this conversation is that our rabbis generally
accepted the leading secular science. Nearly all, up until the 19th
cent counter-reformation, when shitos that promoted digging in our heals
becamea more popular position than they were. At that point it declined,
but still dominant.
This is why I find it very unlikely that Rashi or RT believed the
world was flat.
I suggested this idea because, as logical as your objection is, it was
an idea floated (sorry!) in some cultures. I think even the Persian
astronomy the tannaim favored assumed the ball. I simply don't know
enough history of science to explain how this issue was addressed.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger There's only one corner of the universe
mi...@aishdas.org you can be certain of improving,
http://www.aishdas.org and that's your own self.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Aldous Huxley
Go to top.
Message: 14
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 21:32:32 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] woen wearing Tefillin - Arukh Hashulchan
On Tue, Jul 08, 2014 at 01:05:45PM +0000, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
: Back in January 2014, I posted the Mishneh Brurah 37:7, where he writes:
: > Anshei maaseh have the minhag to learn after davening, in tefillin.
:
: But that's the MB's opinion. What about the Aruch Hashulchan, which was
: the focus of R' Broyde's blog? It turns out that AH 37:3 says similarly:
: > It seems from their words that one who wants nowadays to wear
: > them all day, confident that he will not pass gas or take his
: > mind off of them, should nevertheless *not* wear them all day.
: > But in my humble opinion, I don't see it that way. We've heard
: > that there are some capable individuals, and if the previous
: > generations had people who could wear them all day, then
: > nowadays there are also some individuals who can learn a bit
: > after davening with them on.
It would seem there is a difference in connotation about how unique such people
are.
The AhS would be consistent with a Michal bas Sha'ul, post-menopausal, wearing
tefillin while engaged in mitzvah. The MB may imply something more liberal than
that.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger It's never too late
mi...@aishdas.org to become the person
http://www.aishdas.org you might have been.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - George Eliot
Go to top.
Message: 15
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 21:36:51 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] text of Borei Nefashos
On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 01:48:49AM +0000, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
: Anyway, for a very long time I was puzzled by the frequent cases where
: the siddur seemed to ignore the consensus of the poskim. Eventually I came
: to realize that the poskim weren't dictating what the text ought to be;
: they were reflecting the common practices of their respective communities.
I think this is overstated. Sometimes the nusach given is the nearest
theorectically sustainable (in their opinion) variant to the locals'
common practice. Even in the AhS.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
------------------------------
***************************************
Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
avodah@lists.aishdas.org
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org
You can reach the person managing the list at
avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."
A list of common acronyms is available at
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/acronyms.cgi
(They are also visible in the web archive copy of each digest.)