Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 100

Mon, 30 Jun 2014

• 1. Re: La'azei Rashi (Ezra Chwat)
• 2. How many people can a Para Aduma be metaher? (Marty Bluke)
• 3. Re: How many people can a Para Aduma be metaher? (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: How many people can a Para Aduma be metaher? (Marty Bluke)
• 5. Re: How many people can a Para Aduma be metaher? (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: How many people can a Para Aduma be metaher? (Marty Bluke)
• 7. Re: Chamira sakanta mei'issura (Kenneth Miller)
• 8. Re: Chamira sakanta mei'issura ()
• 9. Re: Chamira sakanta mei'issura (Zev Sero)
• 10. para mathematics (saul newman)
• 11. Re: Early Shabbos meal creates Early Shma! (Kenneth Miller)

Moshe Y. Gluck via Avodah:
> Does anyone know of a place online where one can look up the meaning of
> La'az words in Rashi?

On Talmud: 
<http://www.hebrewbooks.org/48058>

How many "doses" can 1 para aduma provide? How much ashes can there
possibly be from 1 cow? It is not clear to me from the Mishnayos or the
Rambam exactly how much ashes needs to be in each "dose" the one thing it
does say is that you need to see the ashes in the water which means that
you need more then a drop of ashes. I don't see how the ashes of 1 cow
could provide millions of doses which is what it sounds like, see below.

The Mishna in Para (3:5) states that there were 9 para adumahs in history.
However, the distribution is very puzzling. The Mishna states that Moshe
(really Elazar) made a Parah Aduma and that Para Adumah lasted until Ezra
which is about 800 years and then Ezra made a Parah Aduma when they
returned from Bavel. Then, in the period of the second Beis Hamikdash they
made an additional 7 para adumahs. How is it possible that from Moshe until
Ezra one Parah Aduma was enough to be metaher everyone while in a much
shorter period from Ezra until the destruction they needed 8? What changed
between the period of the Shoftim and the first Beis Hamikdash and the
second Beis Hamikdash that required so many more Parah Adumas in the second
Beis Hamikdash? Going back to my original question how could 1 para aduma
possible have enough ashes to metaher everyone for 800 years? Did people
not become tahor in that time period?

One additional point. The Mishnayos in Parah (3rd perek) describe the many
precautions the Chachamim took in order to ensure that the parah aduma did
not become tameh. One of those precautions was the following: They would
take pregnant woman to a special cave (built on top of a hollow) to give
birth and then raise the children there to ensure that they would not
become tameh. The children were not permitted to leave the cave except to
deal with the parah aduma. From a modern day perspective this would
probably be considered child abuse. They essentially locked children in a
small cave for the first 8 years of their life not letting them leave for
any reason except the parah aduma. How exactly should we relate to this?
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On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 02:30:41PM +0300, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
: How many "doses" can 1 para aduma provide? How much ashes can there
: possibly be from 1 cow? ...

I think you can keep on adding water to the batch, indefinitely, until
someone is metamei the water (or it is left to dehydrate, it spills out,
etc..).

Which explains why:
: The Mishna in Para (3:5) states that there were 9 para adumahs in history.
: However, the distribution is very puzzling. The Mishna states that Moshe
: (really Elazar) made a Parah Aduma and that Para Adumah lasted until Ezra
: which is about 800 years and then Ezra made a Parah Aduma when they
: returned from Bavel. Then, in the period of the second Beis Hamikdash they
: made an additional 7 para adumahs....                         What changed
: shorter period from Ezra until the destruction they needed 8?...

What changed? Care at keeping the water tahor.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
It's day 18 #BringBackOurBoys

-- 
Micha Berger             Despair is the worst of ailments. No worries
mi...@aishdas.org        are justified except: "Why am I so worried?"
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 2:41 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 02:30:41PM +0300, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
> : How many "doses" can 1 para aduma provide? How much ashes can there
> : possibly be from 1 cow? ...
>
> I think you can keep on adding water to the batch, indefinitely, until
> someone is metamei the water (or it is left to dehydrate, it spills out,
> etc..).
>
> I don't think that is true. The Rambam writes (9:8 Parah Aduma) that water
that you were already mekadesh (e.g. you already mixed in ashes) that gets
mixed in with other water (even a drop) is pasul.
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On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 03:02:33PM +0300, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
:> I think you can keep on adding water to the batch, indefinitely, until
:> someone is metamei the water (or it is left to dehydrate, it spills out,
:> etc..).

: I don't think that is true. The Rambam writes (9:8 Parah Aduma) that water
: that you were already mekadesh (e.g. you already mixed in ashes) that gets
: mixed in with other water (even a drop) is pasul.

Those are two different things. Like at qiddush, where adding wine to the
kos is different than pouring the kos back into the bottle.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
It's day 18 #BringBackOurBoys

On Sunday, June 29, 2014, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 03:02:33PM +0300, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
>:> I think you can keep on adding water to the batch, indefinitely, until
>:> someone is metamei the water (or it is left to dehydrate, it spills out,
>:> etc..).

>: I don't think that is true. The Rambam writes (9:8 Parah Aduma) that water
>: that you were already mekadesh (e.g. you already mixed in ashes) that gets
>: mixed in with other water (even a drop) is pasul.

> Those are two different things. Like at qiddush, where adding wine to the
> kos is different than pouring the kos back into the bottle.

Where do you see such a chiluk in the Rambam? The Rambam says even a drop
of water pasuls.  I don't see any distinctions or even a hint that there is
a din like kiddush wine.

Rabbi Meir Rabi wrote:

> The ingredient is carmine. That's what it's called, and that's what
> it's always been called. This really is a question of deceptive
> advertising - Geneivas DaAs. An individual or an industry that
> chooses language, that pays V big $$ to choose their words and craft
> their advertising - is based upon the notion of caveat emptor, ...

I agree that it has been called "carmine" for decades, and if you say
"always", I will concede that point. But I don't think that there's any
deception going on, except among people who are deceiving *themselves* by
looking at the word and telling themselves that they know what it means
even though they never bothered to look it up.

Would anyone say that "gelatin" is deceptive, and the ingredient list ought to day something like "dried animal bones and skins"?

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
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From Toby Katz
 
 
From: Rabbi Meir G. Rabi


>> I think RZS meant - Plants that are being eaten by the local  population 
or
perhaps even the animals in the vicinity, are assumed to be  safe for
consumption, unless we have reason to suspect that it is  unsafe.

However, foods that have been GenMod, are not just accelerated  naturally
modified products. Modifications are performed that can not occur  in the
natural order of the natural world.  <<





>>>>
 
 





From chabad.org

 
 
http://www.chabad.org/global/popup/default_cdo/aid/1172/jewish/The
-Fifty-Six
th-Century.htm
 
or
 
 
http://tinyurl.com/lppxfsw
 
--quote--
 
In the six hundredth year in the life of Noah...  all wellsprings of the 
great deep burst open, and the windows of heaven were  opened... 
Genesis 7:11 
The Zohar interprets this verse as a prediction that "in the sixth century 
of  the sixth millennium, the gates of supernal wisdom will be opened, as 
will the  springs of earthly wisdom, preparing the world to be elevated in the 
seventh  millennium." 
Indeed, the fifty-sixth century from creation (1740-1840 in the secular  
calendar) was a time of great discovery and accelerated development, both in 
the  supernal wisdom of Torah and in the earthly wisdom of secular science. 
This was  the century in which the teachings of Chassidism were revealed and 
disseminated  by Rabbi Israel Baal Shem Tov and his disciples. The inner 
soul of Torah....was  made accessible to all.... 
As these supernal revelations poured forth from the windows of heaven, the  
earthly wellsprings answered in kind. The same century saw an unprecedented 
 eruption of knowledge in all fields of secular science -- in mathematics,  
physics, medicine, technology and the social sciences -- revolutionizing 
all  areas of human life.
--end quote--
 
I thought of this famous Zohar when reading the recent exchange about  
genetically modified food.  Without the advances of modern science -- very  much 
including food that has been genetically modified to grow more quickly and  
in greater abundance -- it would have been completely impossible to feed 
several  billion people on Planet Earth.   
 
Malthus predicted mass starvation as world population would grow  
exponentially while food production would increase only arithmetically.   Baruch 
Hashem he was proven wrong, because of the Scientific Revolution which  Hashem 
in His infinite kindness vouchsafed to mankind.
 
The proper Torah attitude towards genetically modified food should be  
immense gratitude to our Creator for allowing us to have so much food and in  
such abundance that, for the first time in history, the biggest problem  
facing POOR PEOPLE (!!!) in developed countries is not hunger and  malnutrition, 
but obesity.  For the first time in history (not counting the  immediate 
generations after Adam) average life expectancy is not 40, but almost  80 
years.  Instead of complaining about the people and industries that make  this 
possible, we should probably periodically be making the bracha  thanking 
Hashem "shenasan mechachmaso levasar vedam."
 

--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


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On 29/06/2014 2:09 PM, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
> Rabbi Meir Rabi wrote:
>
>> The ingredient is carmine. That's what it's called, and that's what
>> it's always been called. This really is a question of deceptive
>> advertising - Geneivas DaAs. An individual or an industry that
>> chooses language, that pays V big $$ to choose their words and craft
>> their advertising - is based upon the notion of caveat emptor, ...
>
> I agree that it has been called "carmine" for decades, and if you say
> "always", I will concede that point. But I don't think that there's
> any deception going on, except among people who are deceiving
> *themselves* by looking at the word and telling themselves that they
> know what it means even though they never bothered to look it up.
>
> Would anyone say that "gelatin" is deceptive, and the ingredient list
> ought to day something like "dried animal bones and skins"?



The attribution is mixed up.  RMR failed to mark his quote from me properly,
leading to RAM's confusion.   I wrote "The ingredient is carmine. That's what
it's called, and that's what it's always been called."  I was making the
same point as RAM, that this is not at all deceptive.  It's calling something
by its correct name, which was not made up to deceive anyone.  If someone
doesn't know what carmine is, they can look it up in a dictionary.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/carmine tells us that the word traces
back all the way to Sanskrit krimiga "insect-produced," from krmi "worm, insect."
RMR quoted me, but disputed my point, claiming that the word is used with
the intent of decieving people. He does not give any evidence or reason to
believe this.

-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

http://jewishworker.blogspot.com/2014/06/how-many-people-can-one-be.html

any help with the math of para aduma ash , and  the amount of use
 obtainable per para?  why did the first last longer?
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R' David Wacholder shared a fascinating shita:

> If you eat early Friday night, you trigger an earlier Beshochbecha,
> and you must say Shma before Kiddush! 
>
> My old approach - making Kiddush around sunset and later joining
> the late Minyan for Krias Shma, Maariv, and Sefiras ha'Omer.
> Based on RAABAN, I was required to say Shma before Kiddush, and I
> may have been transgressing an Issur Derabanan.  It is one thing
> to transgress the Geonim's early Shma time, latterly endorsed by
> GRA and SA Harav, in favor of Rabeinu Tam. 
>
> RABAN shows that when I made my Kiddush, I triggered an Issur
> "Chizuk l'divreihem" -  using RABAN's own terminology.  Self
> triggered Issur before the first word of Kiddush!  His approach
> puts the blame where the blame belongs: By eating early, the Zman
> Krias Shma is triggered - just by sitting down to eat. Regularly
> choosing to eat early, Zman Krias Shma follows my habit, and the
> new RAAABAN_Shma_Time Min Hatorah - required me to say Shma
> immediately!   I triggered my own Issur!  

Several comments:

RDW makes it sound like this is a big chumra, which it is. But I think it
is also a big kula. There are many times when I've davened maariv early,
and I'd like to go to bed, but I have to stay up a while longer so that I
can say Sh'ma at the proper time. According to this Raavan, there's no need
at all to wait.

I'm a bit unclear exactly how this Raavan would play out in practice: Is
the chiyuv of Krias Sh'ma triggered by the actual beginning of the evening
meal, or is it sufficient to WANT to eat the meal? If the answer is the
former, then an interesting conundrum arises, because he will not be yotzay
Krias Sh'ma if he says it prior to the meal, but if he waits until after
beginning, then he has violated the issur of eating without having said the
Sh'ma! Perhaps a solution would be to eat only a bite for Hamotzi, and then
say Sh'ma before completing a kezayis. Or in the case of Friday Night,
perhaps he can say Sh'ma between Kiddush and Hamotzi, and it would not be a
hefsek because it is tzorchei seudah.

Finally, as a practical matter: Are there any other rishonim who hold this way? Are there any acharonim who hold Raavan to be correct?

Akiva Miller

PS: This Raavan, *if* it can be relied on l'maaseh, would be especially
valuable for people in the extreme latitudes. In the past, I often wondered
if they might daven maariv at Plag Hamincha even during the week, and now
with so many shuls posting their schedules on the internet, I've been able
to verify that this is indeed the case. For example, Beth Israel
Congregation of Edmonton (a member of the OU) says that for this coming
Shabbos (Balak, July 5), Mincha on Shabbos afternoon is at 9:39 PM, with
Shabbos ending at 11:09 PM. It doesn't say when they'll daven Maariv on
Motzaei Shabbos, but their weekday "Mincha-Maariv" is at 8:00 PM for all of
May, June, and July. Another example, from GoDaven.com: Beis Yisrael Beis
Hamedrash in London (Rabbi: Dayan Ch. Ehrentreu) lists their weekday Mincha
at "12:45 PM Winter; 10 minutes before Plag Summer", and their weekday
Maariv at "6:55 PM Winter; Follows Mincha in Summer".
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