Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 98

Thu, 26 Jun 2014

• 1. Re: Chamira sakanta mei'issura (Shoshana L. Boublil)
• 2. Re: Chamira sakanta mei'issura (Zev Sero)
• 3. kashrut of beetles (Eli Turkel)
• 4. Re: kashrut of beetles (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: kashrut of beetles (Zev Sero)
• 6. Do the Ends Ever Justify the Means? (Michael Poppers)
• 7. Re: Wetting and Rolling Rice paper on Shabbat (Daniel M. Israel)
• 8. Review Essay: Torah, Chazal and Science (Prof. Levine)
• 9. "Sharpening the message" - ATID essay (Prof. Levine)
• 10. Kavod haTzibbur (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Kavod haTzibbur (Lisa Liel)
• 12. La'azei Rashi (Moshe Y. Gluck)

[Let's try to keep the discussion on the Torah side of things. There is
a limit to the topicality of whether the FDA is testing the food they
certify or not. On Avodah, the only discussion would be whether hashgachos
should rely on the gov't in various hypotheticals. Making it about
anything else shifts to a metzius discussion rather than Torah. -micha]

> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2014 08:17:18 -0500
> From: Lisa Liel via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>

> On 6/17/2014 8:43 PM, Moshe Y. Gluck via Avodah wrote:
>> R'n SLB re: genetically engineered crops:
>>> Should kashrut agencies concern themselves with these issues, at
>>> least from the aspect of sakanta?

>> Should Kashrus agencies concern themselves with cholesterol, calories,
>> sugar, fat, food coloring, non-organic food, pesticides, herbicides,
>> salt, etc.?

> V'rapo yeirafe.  If agencies, private or government, are okaying the food on
> health, that should be enough.

Actually, the only testing being done is by Monsanato itself.  They are
being trusted completely that they are providing full disclosure and that
their testing is comprehensive.  No other agency is double testing; blind
testing etc. any products based on using results of genetic engineering.

The FDA states that they are basing their decisions on data provided by the
manufacturer (Monsanato) in this case.

As RZS stated about the allergy issue, if Monsanato hadn't tested for it -
no one would have known about it b/c no one is actually checking the issues.

Shoshana L. Boublil

On 20/06/2014 10:57 AM, Shoshana L. Boublil via Avodah wrote:
> Actually, the only testing being done is by Monsanato itself.  They are
> being trusted completely that they are providing full disclosure and that
> their testing is comprehensive.  No other agency is double testing; blind
> testing etc. any products based on using results of genetic engineering.

Where in Torah do you derive the idea that any testing at all should be
required?   To require testing you must start with an assumption that the
food is likely to be harmful; what is the basis for such an assumption?
The chazakah of any plant that seems at first glance to be edible is that
it isn't harmful, until we have reason to suspect that it is.  Why would
a plant be different in this regard just because it  happens to have been
genetically engineered, rather than discovered on an Andean hilltop?   How
is that different from the traditional genetic engineering that farmers have
used for thousands of years, by which they produced most of the breeds we eat?
Or from the random genetic changes that happen naturally?

-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

Consumers often don?t realize what?s in their snacks?and sometimes those
ingredients are rather unsavory. One ingredient that?s surprisingly common:
The carcasses of ground-up, boiled beetles, which are often used in snack
foods to create those lovely shades of red, purple and pink in fruit juice,
ice cream and candy. ?It?s a common colorant,?

That said, you won?t find the word ?beetle? anywhere on food labels;
instead, you?ll likely see the less cringe-worthy ?carminic acid? or
?cochineal extract.?

see
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/10-thing
s-snack-food-companies-wont-tell-you-2014-06-20?pagenumber=2

Does this affect the kashrut?


-- 
Eli Turkel
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On Sat, Jun 21, 2014 at 11:59:31PM +0300, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
: That said, you won't find the word "beetle" anywhere on food labels;
: instead, you'll likely see the less cringe-worthy "carminic acid" or
: "cochineal extract."
...
: Does this affect the kashrut?

Most US and Israeli hekhsheirim will not give a hekhser on it.
http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-palate-secretingredient.htm
http://www.ok.org/quickosher/tag/carmine

R Meir Rabi's take lequlah is here
http://www.kosherveyosher.com/carmine-e120.html

The tzad heter seems significant.

Unike other food colorings that would turn people off if they knew.

Castoreum used to be used as a "natural flavoring" for vanilla, but
alternatives have been found. But it is still used in mixes for rasperry
and strawberry candy flavoring (which are different than the fruits'
taste). It's from the beaver musk gland.

Civet is the name of a cat-like animal whose urine is used to produce an
orange food coloring.

On another tangent:
Civet cats also eat coffee beans, and there is a gormet coffee called
kopi luwac made from the beans they thereby "process". R Efrati
pasqened mutar (like honey) but to be avoided (bal teshaqtzu).
http://shut.moreshet.co.il/shut2.asp?id=137958

Gut Voch!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A person lives with himself for seventy years,
mi...@aishdas.org        and after it is all over, he still does not
http://www.aishdas.org   know himself.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On 21/06/2014 4:59 PM, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
> Consumers often don?t realize what?s in their snacks?and sometimes
> those ingredients are rather unsavory. One ingredient that?s
> surprisingly common: The carcasses of ground-up, boiled beetles, which
> are often used in snack foods to create those lovely shades of red,
> purple and pink in fruit juice, ice cream and candy. ?It?s a common
> colorant,?
>
> That said, you won?t find the word ?beetle? anywhere on food labels;
> instead, you?ll likely see the less cringe-worthy ?carminic acid? or
> ?cochineal extract.?

Of course not.  Why would you expect "beetle"?  The ingredient is carmine.  That's
what it's called, and that's what it's always been called.  There's absolutely no
reason why they *should* write "beetle".

> see
> http://www.marketwatch.com/stor
> y/10-things-snack-food-companies-wont-tell-you-2014-06-20?pagenumber=2
> 

A hysterical piece that pretends this is something new, or that there's something
underhanded about it.  Why whould the average consumer care about this?


> Does this affect the kashrut?

It's an old old machlokes.  I'm surprised you hadn't heard of this before.
See Pischei Teshuvah YD 87:20, who quotes ShuT Tiferes Tzvi (YD 73) that it's
permitted.  ROY paskened this way lema'aseh, and I believe standard Rabbanut
allows it, but mehadrin does not.  None of the major US hechsherim allow it,
but some of the less popular ones do, so if one doesn't want to rely on the matirim
and one uses a product from a minor US hechsher  one has to check  the ingredients.

Pischei Teshuvah: http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=9145&;pgnum=394
Tiferes Tzvi    : http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1486&;pgnum=166
For some information about the Tiferes Tzvi:
http://www.virtualjudaica.com/Item/25431/Letter_by_R._Zev
i_Hirsch_b._Benjamin_Baschko

Here is an explanation by a machshir who does allow it:
http://rabbidavidsheinkopf.com/carmine/

Yabia Omer doen't appear to be online, but I found a reference claiming
that the heter is to be found in 8:11.


-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

How 'bout saying that everything is relative except that which is *mipi
haG'vurah* (or His representative, by which I mean [leveraging RDrJSacks'
dichotomy
<http://www.jewishpress.com/judaism/pa
rsha/from-structure-to-continuity-to-spontaneity/2012/04/18/0/?print>
;]
a *navi* rather than a *kohein*)?

All the best from
*Michael Poppers* * Elizabeth, NJ, USA
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On Jun 19, 2014, at 12:09 PM, Esther and Aryeh Frimer via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
> Has anyone heard of a psak regarding wetting and using Rice paper Sheets on 
> Shabbat for wraps?

Can you clarify what exactly you think might be a concern?

--
Daniel M. Israel
d...@cornell.edu

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The most recent volume of the journal Hakirah has 
been just been released.  It contains what I 
consider to be a most important article by Prof. 
Nathan Aviezer with the above title.  This 
article is a review of Rabbi Dr. Moshe 
Meiselman's book Torah, Chazal and Science and may be downloaded from

  <http://www.hakirah.org/Vol17Aviezer.pdf>Review 
Essay: Torah, Chazal and Science

IMO Dr. Aviezer,  Professor of Physics and former 
Chairman of the Physics Department of Bar-Ilan 
University,  points out many serious flaws in R. Meiselman's book.

At the end of his article he writes

A more modern Torah luminary who considered Hazal?s scientific
knowledge to be the science of their day was Rav Shimshon Raphael
Hirsch, the leader of Orthodox Jewry in Germany in the late nineteenth
century. Rav Hirsch was known for his vigorous opposition to any idea
that strayed in the slightest from Torah hashkafa.

Rav Hirsch writes (Trusting the Torah Sages, Chap. 4):

The first principle that every student of Hazal must keep before his
eyes is the following: Hazal were the sages of G-d?s law. They did
not especially master the natural sciences, geometry or astronomy,
except insofar that they needed them for knowing and fulfilling the
Torah. Their knowledge was not transmitted from Sinai? Hazal
considered the wisdom of the gentile scholars equal to their own in
the natural sciences. To determine who was right in areas where gentile
scholars disagreed with their own knowledge, they did not rely
on their tradition but on reason. Moreover, they respected the opinion
of gentile scholars, admitting when the opinion of the latter
seemed more correct than their own opinion.

We note the complete agreement between these words of Rav Hirsch,
the writings of Rambam and of his son Rav Avraham.

A translation of RSRH's essay Trusting the Torah Sages is available at

http://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/hirschAgadaEnglish.pdf

The original Hebrew article is at 
http://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/hirschAgadaHebrew_ll.pdf

YL
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 From http://lookstein.org/lookjed/read.php?1,22340,22340#msg-22340

This essay is an abridged version of a 35-page 
pamphlet I wrote that was recently published by 
ATID. The full version of the paper, entitled 
?Sharpening the Message: Recommendations for 
Improving the Effectiveness of Religious 
Education in Yeshiva High Schools?, expands on 
these thoughts in more detail and provides 
additional support and documentation. It can be 
downloaded from ATID?s website here - 
[<http://atid.org/publications/haber.asp>atid.org]

<Snip>

I determined that the current state of Modern 
Orthodox education ? indeed of Modern Orthodoxy 
itself ? can be described as a paradox: on the 
one hand, our efforts over the past few decades 
have been phenomenally successful, and at the 
same time there is so much that cries out for 
improvement. Both halves of that sentence are 
true and neither one negates the other.

<Snip>

Over the course of researching this project, a 
few observations about the American Modern 
Orthodox Yeshiva High School system crystallized in my mind.

First of all, as strange as this may sound, 
rabbis and teachers in Orthodox schools and 
synagogues talk very little about God. And, when 
they do talk about God, they often fail to help 
their students build a relationship with Him. We 
study texts from the Bible and the Talmud, and 
talk about important aspects of halachic life 
such as Shabbat, the holidays, and prayer. Of 
course, those things all have much to do with 
God, and He features prominently in the 
discussions, but we do not talk much about Him 
directly, or about how to interact with Him in any meaningful way.

<Snip>

To put it bluntly: I suspect that we have 
unintentionally taught our students that Torah 
texts belong in school, and are to be studied 
primarily for the purpose of grades. We have 
communicated that message by teaching texts and 
skills in a rigorous way, but without talking 
much about God, religion or the spiritual 
significance of these texts. And we have 
compounded the problem by running the classrooms 
as primarily academic environments without 
allotting enough time for processing whatever 
spiritual or religious issues do come up.

See the above URL for more.  IMO,  there is much 
food for thought in this essay.  YL
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During the discussion about giving aliyos to women, I asked whether
the kevod hatzibbur refers to the kavod of the set of men comprising
the minyan, the minyan as a unit, or the minyan as a component of Benei
Yisrael -- the kavod of the national tzibbur.

I wanted to know because it seems clear that if we're talking about
the kavod of the individuals in the minyan, then it would seem logical
that if they are mokhelim, or do not find it an insult to even forgive,
then there should be no kevod hatzibur problem.

Similarly it seems to me that if we're talking about the kavod of the
nation, and a minyan comprises a unit of the nation for whom an affront
would be a national affront, then the people in the minyan could not be
mokhelim on behalf of the entire Jewish People.

And if it's the minyan's kavod as a corporate entity, I could argue
either way.

Well, I cam across an AhS today which appears to rule out the national
possibility. OC 144:6 quotes Yoma 70a that one does not wind a seifer
Torah to the proper reading location because of kevod hatzibbur. And the
AhS explains "because it isn't kevod hatzibur to wait". (Interesting that
it's not framed as tirkha detzibura, but as a kavod issue. The prohibition
of tirkha might in general be a derivative of being a lack of kavod.)

However, on Yom Kippur in the BHMQ, the kohein gadol would recite the
second part of his leining be'al to avoid rolling. Whereas we do not go
*that* far -- if there is only one sefer available, the need outweighs
the kavod issue. Why? The AhS writes because the kevod hatzibur of the
minyan is not that of the entire nation.

One might say that in both cases the kavod is of the nation (whether
in the BHMQ on YK or in the local shul), but it's the affront that is
lesser -- making a single minyan wait is less a violation of that kavod.
But that's not how the AhS framed it.

BTW, the AhS emphasized that making everyone wait for rolling really is a
real issur, and someone who should have rolled the Torah beforehand to the
right place and didn't violated this issue -- "venitzrakh lehaz-hiram"!

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "I hear, then I forget; I see, then I remember;
mi...@aishdas.org        I do, then I understand." - Confucius
http://www.aishdas.org   "Hearing doesn't compare to seeing." - Mechilta
Fax: (270) 514-1507      "We will do and we will listen." - Israelites

On 6/25/2014 1:00 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> During the discussion about giving aliyos to women, I asked whether
> the kevod hatzibbur refers to the kavod of the set of men comprising
> the minyan, the minyan as a unit, or the minyan as a component of Benei
> Yisrael -- the kavod of the national tzibbur.

The question of national vs. local is only one part of it. The other
part of it is: what is the kavod that was deemed to be impinged upon?
Was it simply that a woman dared to leyn in front of men? If it was,
/and/ if local kavod is what we're concerned about, then maybe there'd
be room for mechilat kavod.

But what if that's not what the kavod issue was at all? What if the
issue was something else?

1) Maybe it was an issue of the disgrace of no men being available who
knew how to leyn. How can you be mochel kavod in such a situation?
It's not a matter of personal feelings, but of an objective shame.

2) Maybe it was that there's an aspect of being motzi those with a
greater chiyuv. Since the leyner is only standing in for the person
getting the aliya, the leyner isn't /actually/ being motzi anyone, but
the appearance of it could be an issue of kavod. Again, one which it's
hard to imagine mechila helping with.

I'm not saying it /is/ either of those. Personally, I love leyning, and
it kills me when I have to listen to a guy leyning who simply doesn't
get it. Who utterly disregards the role of the trope as grammatical,
when that's its primary purpose. To me, that's also a disgrace, and the
more so when the same people get called back time and again, showing that
the rest of the kahal is either ignorant or uncaring of the disgrace.
If I really could leyn in shul halakhically, I'd jump at the chance.
If only for my own peace of mind. But I don't see a reasonable case being
made for it. Not to mention the public policy issues, which are many.

Lisa

Does anyone know of a place online where one can look up the meaning of
La'az words in Rashi?

KT,
MYG
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