Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 87

Fri, 16 May 2014

• 1. The O Therapist and the non taharas mishpacha (Joseph Kaplan)
• 2. Re: The O Therapist and the non taharas mishpacha keeping couple (Chana Luntz)
• 3. Re: A Printing Mistake and the Mysterious Origins of Rashbi's Yahrzeit ()
• 4. Re: Fasting on the four fasts (was women wearing tephillin) (Chana Luntz)
• 5. Re: The O Therapist and the non taharas mishpacha (Zev Sero)
• 6. Re: The O Therapist and the non taharas mishpacha (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 7. Re: The O Therapist and the non taharas mishpacha keeping, , couple (David Riceman)
• 8. Re: The O Therapist and the non taharas mishpacha (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: Women wearing Tefillin (Arie Folger)
• 10. Insights Into Halacha: The 'Unknown Days of the Jewish Calendar' (Prof. Levine)
• 11. Re: Aliyyot to the Blind vs Aliyyot for women vs minors (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: The O Therapist and the non taharas mishpacha keeping, , couple (Zev Sero)
• 13. Re: Insights Into Halacha: The 'Unknown Days of the Jewish Calendar' (Zev Sero)
• 14. Re: Insights Into Halacha: The 'Unknown Days of the Jewish Calendar' (Rabbi Yehuda Spitz)
• 15. Re: Insights Into Halacha: The 'Unknown Days of the Jewish Calendar' (Zev Sero)
• 16. Interesting data on agunot (Arie Folger)

"What greater mesayea` yedei ovrei avera could there be?!  If the psak was
that you may not assist the patient in doing an avera, then it follows that
you may not refer the patient to a practitioner without such scruples.

Imagine if someone tried to hire you to commit a murder, and you're too
squeamish to do so yourself, but instead you referred them to a hit man
who will be willing to do as the client wishes.  When the victim was killed
you would share in the guilt -- and if the "client" turned out to be an FBI
informer you would be arrested for conspiracy.  So how is this different??

It?s different because in the case we?re discussing, under my scenario the
therapist made a professional judgment that a treatment, which her rav
later told her was against halacha, was the best treatment for this
particular patient.  In the murder scenario, no one made any professional
judgment that the murder is justified except that it is against the law.

Joseph

RDR wrote:

<<Do I correctly : understand RMS as having claimed that there's a hazakah
that couples : who squabble commit adultery?>>

RMB:

<< No. Just that there is enough of a risk to matir giving them marriage
advice that would increase the number of violations of hil' [n]iddah.>>

>But competing risks isn't a halachic category.  Can you rephrase this using
terms the Ramban would recognize, but without terms like hazakah or safeik
or miut hanimtza?  If you need to use >terms like that the halachic
implications should extend to all marriages.

Of course it has implications for all marriages.  That is, in the case of
all marriages, it is better that counselling be provided (by a professional
or even by a friend or neighbour, assuming they can do more good than harm)
to keep any couple together and enable better relations.  If the couple are
taharas mishpacha keeping, then there is no downside to this, so it does not
need discussing.  In the case of a non taharas mishpacha keeping couple,
there is the downside of them potentially having more nida relations as a
result of the counselling.  However, once you have identified the severity
of the consequences if such counselling is not provided or effective  - then
the only halachic term you need is "pen", ie lest.  You need to counsel lest
the woman otherwise be tempted to go out and commit adultery and/or lest the
couple split up without a proper get being given and the woman have
subsequent relationships.  Clearly if such actions were rare then you don't
have to worry about lest, but once it is more frequent that rare, you do.
You don't need a chazaka to employ a pen argument.

>David Riceman

Regards

Chana

Date: Wed, 14 May 2014
From: Toby Katz _t613k@aol.com_ (mailto:t6...@aol.com) 
To: avo...@lists.aishdas.org
 
 

> We don't celebrate the yarzheit of Avraham Avinu, Moshe  Rabbeinu,
> David HaMelech, or any other great people with bonfires.  Rather,
> halakha states the opposite - to fast on a yahrzeit,  especially
> on those days that great people died. [--RYL]

My  understanding is that the Chevra Kadisha DOES make a seudah on Moshe 
Rabbeinu's  yahrzeit. Granted that seudah is not a bonfire, but it is most 
certainly not a  taanis. [--RAM]

Akiva Miller




>>>>>
 
 
 
 
Actually the common minhag of the chevra kadisha is to fast on 7 Adar and  
have a seudah that night, after the fast.
 

--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


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RBW wrote:

From my experience, you can't make the assumption that people know 
>about these fast days.  People are much more ignorant about things than 
>we give them credit for.

I agree - but perhaps that really should be, and Israeli employer should
have known.

>Having said that, ISTM that employers accept that employees aren't 
>always 100%. For example, in August after camps finish and before school 
>starts people bring their kids in day after day and this is accepted. 
>Kids are much more of a distraction than a headache caused by a fast.

Now here is a fascinating cultural distinction.  Nobody, but nobody in the
British City environment in which I work would bring their kids to work
(except for Bring Your Kids to Work Day).  They *might* if faced with a
crisis and work was possible, work from home (and would feel sufficiently
guilty that they would probably do more work than usual to overcompensate).
Otherwise they would take holiday (admittedly the British holiday allowances
are much more generous than the American ones, and I would guess the Israeli
ones) or scurry around like a lunatic begging or paying for childcare from
their neighbours, their friends, their relatives whomsoever they can find.
Also, because of this pressure, there are day camps that run the full length
of school holidays, including the long summer one and every standard half
term and full term holiday.  I agree that having kids in the Jewish schools
do cause more problems, as the holidays often don't coincide, and it is more
difficult if your child is disabled as the range of day camps available are
much fewer.  But bringing your kids into work is something that no British
employer would tolerate or expect to tolerate, and it is fascinating that
Israeli employers will do so.  None of my kids has ever been inside my
various workplaces (except when they were first born, and I was on maternity
leave, as it is considered de rigeur to bring them in when a few months old
to show your colleagues)- because the one time it is expected that kids will
be brought to work (on a weekend day for the Xmas party) understandably I
don't, and so far we seem to have avoided Bring Your Kids to Work Day (the
Jewish schools tend not to put pressure on you to take the kids out for it).

Halachically that should mean that it is OK in Israel to bring your kids
like this, because the Israeli employer hired on this assumption, but
forbidden for a British employee, because such behaviour is a complete
change of the ground rules.

>Ben


Regards

Chana

On 14/05/2014 5:54 PM, Joseph Kaplan via Avodah wrote:
>> "What greater mesayea` yedei ovrei avera could there be?!  If the psak was
>> that you may not assist the patient in doing an avera, then it follows that
>> you may not refer the patient to a practitioner without such scruples.
>>
>> Imagine if someone tried to hire you to commit a murder, and you're too
>> squeamish to do so yourself, but instead you referred them to a hit man
>> who will be willing to do as the client wishes.  When the victim was killed
>> you would share in the guilt -- and if the "client" turned out to be an FBI
>> informer you would be arrested for conspiracy.  So how is this different??

> It?s different because in the case we?re discussing, under my
> scenario the therapist made a professional judgment that a treatment,
> which her rav later told her was against halacha, was the best
> treatment for this particular patient.

So what?  Why is the professional judgment of a therapist more privileged
than the professional judgment of a hit man?  Since when is the best treatment
for the patient the standard for what should be done?   Since when should a
wrong thing be done, just because it happens to be the best treatment for
the patient?   You can't really be claiming such a thing.  You wouldn't
recommend murder or stealing, even if it really would be the best treatment
for the patient, and you wouldn't refer the patient to someone who would
recommend it.  Because the patient simply isn't entitled to the best possible
treatment.  If the best treatment is something that's wrong, then the patient
must simply make do with the second best treatment, or the third best, or
no treatment at all.  Surely you agree with that.



> In the murder scenario, no one made any professional judgment that the
> murder is justified except that it is against the law.

"Justified"?!  Who said anything about "justified"?  Your criterion just now
was "the best treatment".  "Justified" and "the best treatment" are two
completely unrelated concepts.   The best treatment for a patient may well
be something that is unjustified, and should not be done.

-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

R' Joseph Kaplan:
And then, if the answer is that the preferred approach should not be
followed for halachic reasons, ISTM that the therapist should tell the
patient that she can no longer continue as the patients therapist and refer
the patient to another qualified therapist. If she does not do that,
although she may be following what she deems her values, by not providing
what she has determined is the best therapy I  would think she is violating
her professional obligations to her patient. 
------------------------ 

I looked into this because I was wondering if what R' JK said regarding
referring the patient to another therapist was correct. It is, at least
according to the American Association for Marriage and Family  Therapy. Here
are some relevant excerpts (the original available at
http://www.aamft.org/imis15/content/legal_ethics/code_of_ethics.aspx):

1.10 Referrals. Marriage and family therapists assist persons in obtaining
other therapeutic services if the therapist is unable or unwilling, for
appropriate reasons, to provide professional help.

1.11 Non-Abandonment. Marriage and family therapists do not abandon or
neglect clients in treatment without making reasonable arrangements for the
continuation of treatment.

3.3 Seek Assistance. Marriage and family therapists seek appropriate
professional assistance for their personal problems or conflicts that may
impair work performance or clinical judgment.

3.4 Conflicts of Interest. Marriage and family therapists do not provide
services that create a conflict of interest that may impair work performance
or clinical judgment.

KT,
MYG

RZS:

<<What difference does it make what so-called "ethical rule" members of 
a trade have made up for themselves?>>

I checked up a little more about the background.  Every US State 
requires that therapists be licensed, and includes an ethical code as 
part of the licensing requirement.

a.  I couldn't find the details of the procedure, but I imagine that 
accepting the license involves a shvua d'orayysa.

b.  Certainly violating the ethical code involves losing one's license 
and hence one's parnassah.

c.  Even in the absence of state licensing, colleagues are permitted to 
regulate one another.  H. Mechirah 14:10.

David Riceman

On 14/05/2014 11:06 PM, Moshe Y. Gluck via Avodah wrote:
> I looked into this because I was wondering if what R' JK said regarding
> referring the patient to another therapist was correct. It is, at least
> according to the American Association for Marriage and Family  Therapy. Here
> are some relevant excerpts (the original available at
> http://www.aamft.org/imis15/content/legal_ethics/code_of_ethics.aspx):

Why is this relevant?   I took it for granted that the therapist union would
have such a rule, but so what?  How does the existence of such a rule make
it ethical to comply with it, or unethical not to?  What gives unions the right
to define what is ethical or not?  I can write a whole new set of rules that
will contradict the union ones; are my rules also to have the same status, and
if not, why not?  What makes them better qualified to know right from wrong
than I am?

-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

RMB wrote:
> Or, it might speak to the relationship between tefillah and shul. Is
> the value of going to shul specific to tefillah betzibur? (I thought not,
> but I have no meqoros.)

Berakhot 6b:
R. Helbo, in the name of R. Huna, says: Whosoever has a fixed place for his
prayer has the G"d of
Abraham as his helper.

Sotah 22a:
A certain widow had a Synagogue in her neighbourhood; yet she used to come
daily to the School of R. Johanan and pray there. He said to her, ?My
daughter, is there not a Synagogue in your neighbourhood?? She answered
him, ?Rabbi, but have I not the reward for the steps!?

-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/

* When we Sell Our Chametz, We Mean It (humor)

* Are Freedom of Religion and Human Rights in Conflict?

* Warum gingen unsere Vorfahren ins ?gyptische Exil? (Audio-Schiur)

* Warum heilt G?tt nicht die Amputierte

* Culture, a Foundation for Torah?
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Ever wonder what Lag B'Omer is actually all about? You didn't really 
think that proper observance constitutes a barbeque and 'traditional' 
game of bas

Ever wonder what Lag B'Omer is actually all about? You didn't really 
think that proper observance constitutes a barbeque and 'traditional' 
game of baseball, did you? How about Pesach Sheini? Or BeHa"B? Either 
way, you've come to the right place...

To find out, read the full article 
"<https://go.madmimi.com/redirects/1400143548
-10c20c5abf2eaac880c5794ab317ed6a-4aadd27?pa=22578352191>Insights 
Into Halacha: The Unknown Days of the Jewish Calendar".

I welcome your questions or comments by email. For all of the Mareh 
Mekomos / sources, just ask.

"<https://go.madmimi.com/redirects/1400143548
-3c8ac21dd2b49bc77865013b03cab5a6-4aadd27?pa=22578352191>Insights 
Into Halacha" is a weekly series of contemporary Halacha articles for 
Ohr Somayach. If you enjoyed the article, please share it with 
friends and family. To sign up to receive weekly articles simply email me.

kol tuv,
Y. Spitz
Yerushalayim
ysp...@ohr.edu

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I saw the AhS WRT this subthread, aliyos, but I do not recall anyone
citing him on WRT the original thread -- sha"tz.

AhS OC 53:12 presents the BY se'if 10 as a limud zekhus on people who
have the minhag to call up qetanim for Arbit motz"sh. The AhS adds
that his minhag is for yesomim, because (see YD 376) being sha"tz on
motza"sh is a tiqun for the neshamah.

"Umikol maqom michu hagedolim bezeh, as rabbeinu haBY writes in his
great seifer..."

And finally closes in his and the Rama's name that without the minhag,
it's certainly wrong -- and if maariv of motza"sh is said mibe'od yom,
not even on the evening he would turn 13!

(That bit where the AhS talks about maariv mibe'od yom on motza"sh
reminded me how late Shabbos could end in Litta. I heard that in Telzh
in some parts of the year, some of the bachurim would make havdalah,
learn for a couple of hours, and put on tefilin for a minyan kevasiqin!)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 30th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        4 weeks and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Gevurah sheb'Hod: When does capitulation
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  result in holding back from others?

On 15/05/2014 8:39 AM, David Riceman via Avodah wrote:
> RZS:
>
>> What difference does it make what so-called "ethical rule" members
>> of a trade have made up for themselves?>>
>
> I checked up a little more about the background. Every US State
> requires that therapists be licensed, and includes an ethical code as
> part of the licensing requirement.
>
> a. I couldn't find the details of the procedure, but I imagine that
> accepting the license involves a shvua d'orayysa.

So what?  Masneh al ma shekasuv batorah is automatically invalid.


> b. Certainly violating the ethical code involves losing one's license
> and hence one's parnassah.

Only if you get caught.  And even if you do risk getting caught, that
itself is a shayla you have to ask.  Just as the patient's health is
not an automatic heter for everything, so your job security is also
not an automatic heter for everything.


> c. Even in the absence of state licensing, colleagues are permitted
> to regulate one another. H. Mechirah 14:10.

Um, see the very next se'if.  But again, even if we were to accept this,
it *obviously* doesn't apply to any rule that requires people to do
something even slightly unethical, let alone an actual aveira.

-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

>  http://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/5146

 From the linked article, giving 3 reasons for BeHaB:
> To commemorate Queen Esther?s original 3-day fast (which actually was
> Pesach time, and not Purim time)[9]. This is pushed off until the
> first opportunity after Chodesh Nissan. [The Ta?anis Esther that we
> fast before Purim is not really due to Esther?s actual fast as
> recorded in the Megillah, but rather to commemorate that when the
> Jews went to war against the anti-Semites of their day, they fasted].

But they didn't fast!  They were all either actively fighting or preparing
to flee at a moment's notice should the fighting not go well, so al pi halacha
they were not allowed to fast.  Only Esther and her servants, safe in the palace,
were allowed to fast, and they did so, which is why we call it Taanis Esther.


> Monday and Thursday are considered especially potent days for prayer,
> as Moshe Rabbeinu climbed Har Sinai to receive the Torah on a Thursday
> and returned with it on a Monday.

Indeed, this is such an entrenched and ancient Jewish tradition, that an
early Xian book, from the era when Xians were trying to distinguish
themselves from Jews, says that one who wishes to fast should do so on a
Wednesday or a Friday, and davka not on a Monday or a Thursday, because
that's a Jewish custom.

-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 5:55 PM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:
>> To commemorate Queen Esther's original 3-day fast (which actually was
>> Pesach time, and not Purim time)[9]. This is pushed off until the
>> first opportunity after Chodesh Nissan. [The Ta'anis Esther that we
>> fast before Purim is not really due to Esther's actual fast as
>> recorded in the Megillah, but rather to commemorate that when the
>> Jews went to war against the anti-Semites of their day, they fasted].

> But they didn't fast!  They were all either actively fighting or preparing
> to flee at a moment's notice should the fighting not go well, so al pi
> halacha
> they were not allowed to fast.  Only Esther and her servants, safe in the
> palace,
> were allowed to fast, and they did so, which is why we call it Taanis
> Esther.


To R' Zev,

Thank you for writing; all feedback is appreciated.

I just want to point out that I think you might have misunderstood what
I wrote about Taanis Esther. Esther (and Mordechai) and Shushan Jewry
at that time [in Esther's words "tzumu alei"] fasted for 3 days over
Pesach. That is when the turnabout and Purim miracle occurred. According
to the Rambam (Hilchos Taaniyos Ch. 5, 5; cited l'maaseh in Mishna
Berura 686, 2) this fast is not the fast that we commemorate with our
'Taanis Esther', but 'Taanis Esther' is rather to commemorate that when
the Jews went to war against the anti-Semites of their day they fasted -
just like every other milchama found in the Torah - Bnei Yisrael fasted.

However, Maseches Sofrim (Ch. 21, 1 - 3) states that we really should
commemorate the actual 3 Day fast of Esther but we cannot do so during
Nissan and instead do it the first possible Mon, Thurs, Mon (and
not consecutive which we cannot be expected to do) in Chodesh Iyar.
Accordingly, this BeHa"B turns out to be the real commemoration of
Esther's true fast, just not Taanis Esther.

I hope this helps clarify.

kol tuv and Good Shabbos.
Y. Spitz
Yerushalayim
Insights Into Halacha  <http://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha>

On 15/05/2014 1:04 PM, Rabbi Yehuda Spitz wrote:
> I just want to point out that I think you might have misunderstood what
> I wrote about Taanis Esther.

I didn't misunderstand; my note was about "Taanis Esther", the one before
Purim, and what it commemorates.  As you say, it doesn't commemorate the
3-day fast that was on Pesach.


> but 'Taanis Esther' is rather to commemorate that when the Jews went
> to war against the anti-Semites of their day they fasted - just like
> every other milchama found in the Torah - Bnei Yisrael fasted.

This was what my comment addressed.  It's not possible that Bnei Yisrael
fasted on that day.  They were forbidden from fasting, because they were
either fighting, or preparing to flee at a moment's notice should the
fighting ch"v not go well.  Only Esther and her servants fasted, since
they were safe in the palace.  That's why we call it Taanis Esther.


-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

Rabosai,

Please see my new blog post, with interesting datum regarding #agunot:

http://ariefolger.wordpr
ess.com/2014/05/16/in-the-paris-jewish-community-more-women-than-men-are-re
calcitrant-spouses/

This should not make us make light of the plight of either agunot or agunim
(chained spouses), but data is always better than no data.

-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/

* When we Sell Our Chametz, We Mean It (humor)

* Are Freedom of Religion and Human Rights in Conflict?

* Warum gingen unsere Vorfahren ins ?gyptische Exil? (Audio-Schiur)

* Warum heilt G?tt nicht die Amputierte

* Culture, a Foundation for Torah?
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