Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 86

Wed, 14 May 2014

• 1. Re: Musical Davening (Lisa Liel)
• 2. Re: Musical Davening (Liron Kopinsky)
• 3. Fasting on the four fasts (was women wearing tephillin (Chana Luntz)
• 4. Re: The O Therapist and the non taharas mishpacha keeping, couple (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: A Printing Mistake and the Mysterious Origins of Rashbi's Yahrzeit* ()
• 6. Re: A Printing Mistake and the Mysterious Origins of Rashbi's Yahrzeit* ()
• 7. Re: A Printing Mistake and the Mysterious Origins of Rashbi's Yahrzeit (Kenneth Miller)
• 8. Re: The O Therapist and the non taharas mishpacha keeping, couple (Zev Sero)
• 9. The O Therapist and the non taharas mishpacha (Joseph Kaplan)
• 10. shemitta stories (Eli Turkel)
• 11. Re: Musical Davening (Zev Sero)
• 12. Re: Musical Davening (Zev Sero)
• 13. Re: Fasting on the four fasts (was women wearing tephillin (Ben Waxman)
• 14. Re: The O Therapist and the non taharas mishpacha (Zev Sero)
• 15. Re: A Printing Mistake and the Mysterious Origins of Rashbi's Yahrzeit (Zev Sero)
• 16. Re: A Printing Mistake and the Mysterious Origins of Rashbi's Yahrzeit (Saul Guberman)

On 5/13/2014 3:38 PM, Liron Kopinsky via Avodah wrote:
> http://www.kipa.co.il/now/56807.html
>
> What could the halachik objection be?

Do you mean other than the Beit HaMikdash being in ruins?

Lisa

On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 3:32 PM, Lisa Liel <l...@starways.net> wrote:

> On 5/13/2014 3:38 PM, Liron Kopinsky via Avodah wrote:
>
>> http://www.kipa.co.il/now/56807.html
>>
>> What could the halachik objection be?
>>
>
> Do you mean other than the Beit HaMikdash being in ruins?
>
> Lisa
>

Would that be any different in a shul or anywhere else? But we definitely
do listen to live music today generally.

-- 
Liron Kopinsky
liron.kopin...@gmail.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20140514/c4b80e56/attachment-0001.htm>

R' David Cohen wrote:

> But in a time when there is no Beis haMikdash but also no persecution, 
> these fasts are dependent on whether the community wants to fast or 
> not.
>
> The custom of your community and mine, which is reflected in the 
> Shulchan Aruch, is that healthy women who are not pregnant or nursing 
> do fast.  But if an entire community (and I would think that most 
> chassidic communities meet the definition of "community" in a stronger 
> sense than many others do) have a custom according to which women, as 
> a collective, did not accept to fast on these days, I would think that 
> to be legitimate.

And RAM replied:

>I have always understood these fasts to be straightforward halachos of the
d'Rabanan level, for which the only heterim are of the regular "lo gazru
rabanan" type, such as for health reasons. I >never before heard it being
contingent on persecution and/or community custom. Can you show me where to
find this? Thanks.

The essential gemora can be found at Rosh HaShana 18a-b.  The question is
first raised, why don't the messengers go out in Tamuz and Teves order to
make sure people know about the minor fasts.  And the pasuk from Zecharia is
brought that calls these days both fasts and sasson v'simcha.  And in
conclusion of the sugya Rav Papa says that the correct explanation of the
pasuk is "in a time where there is peace there is sasson v'simcha and in a
time where there is shmad, fasting, when there is no shmad and no peace, if
they want they fast, if they don't want they do not fast".   The gemora then
asks that if this is true then Tisha B'Av should be the same, but Rav Papa
responds and distinguishes between Tisha B'Av and the other 3 fasts. 

However the Shulchan Aruch rules in siman 550 si'if 1: All are obligated to
fast these four fasts and it is forbidden to breach the fence, and the Rema
there adds only excluding pregnant and nursing women.

The Magen Avraham comments on the statement "breach the fence" that even
though from the din in a time when there is no danger there is no obligation
to fast except on Tisha B'Av in any event since they are accustomed to fast
all of them it is forbidden to breach the fence, and similarly the Mishna
Brura states (si'if katan 1) "he wants to say that even though the
conclusion of the gemora is that in a time that we do not find gezeros of
the non Jews on Israel the matter is dependent upon the will of Israel that
it is that if the majority of Israel want and agree that they should not
fast in these four fasts the permission is in their hand the poskim have
written that now that already they want and have accepted upon themselves
all of Israel from generation to generation it is forbidden to breach the
fence."

Now it is true that not everybody agreed  with the conclusion of the Magen
Avraham and the Mishna Brura.  Rav Ovadiah Yosef, in Yabiat Omer Orech Chaim
chelek 2 siman 28 oit 11 provides a brief list of rishonim who hold that
actually the optional aspect is only with regard to the other inuyim - ie
washing and anointing and wearing of leather shoes, but brings the majority
opinion as being like the Magen Avraham/Mishna Brura.

BTW In that teshuva of Rav Ovadiah he discusses in letters 7 through 12 a
teshuva of Rabbi Yadid in Yemei Yosef who argues that actually a talmud
chacham and even more so a [Torah] teacher of children should be exempt from
fasting on these fasts if it would cause him to diminish his learning or his
teaching, and thereby diminish the work of heaven.  The reason why all the
more so a Torah teacher is because he is employed and there is a concern
because of gezel - and this would seem to apply to general hired workers
too, as is discussed in Brachos where for example it is ruled that the
workers while in the midst of working are not allowed to say all of the
benching because they are taking away time from their employer.

Now Rav Ovadiah rejects this argument from the Yamei Yosef and rather holds
that all of these should fast the minor fasts.  In relation to the gezel
point, he argues that it is the same as the situation regarding the brachos
where the Shulchan Aruch rules in Orech Chaim siman 191 si'if 2 that now
workers always say all four brachos because it is not the way for a man now
to be makpid on this and it was in reliance on this that the hiring took
place.

And while I am sure that is certainly true of Torah teachers, or of rabbis
employed by the Rabbanut or the like - where the deal is that they are
hiring religious people, and hence it is to be expected that they will fast
these fasts, I do wonder about the metzius in other employment situations.
Maybe you could say that a secular Israeli employee can be expected to know
enough about datiim that they will know that they fast these fasts, and they
employ anybody religious with that knowledge - but employers in chutz
l'aretz?  And while I agree about the brachos - it is standard and expected
in modern work environments that workers be given lunch breaks, which should
provide ample time to say these brachos, it is not at all standard and
expected by employers that their employees will be fasting on random days
where their work performance may suffer as a result.  And while most of the
frum people I know have discussions about the impact of shabbas on their
employment at some point in the interview or employment process, and also
the need to take off Jewish holidays, which can be assumed to include Tisha
B'Av, I don't think I know anybody who actually discussed the minor fasts,
or who takes them all off as holiday.    So I really do wonder about the
metzius of this - why is this not really gezel?


>Akiva Miller

Regards

Chana

On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 11:53:50AM -0400, David Riceman via Avodah wrote:
: So I suspect that we may be over-analyzing his response.

I noted that we don't even know his real response; any n-th hand report
doesn't deserve this level of analysis even if one takes the answer at
its word.

Still, I disagree. I think it's a simply loophole in mesayei'ah -- chazal
only prohibited helping people sin when one choice would make it easier
for the other to sin, and another would not.

A mashal: Zakhin le'adam shelo befanav is knocked out when it costs the
adam something he might want -- even if the something is far less than
the gain.

Who said this is a matter of weighing magnitude of sin, likelihood, or
anything like that? Since we don't really have anything but grapevine,
how sure are we of any make-or-break details?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 29th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        4 weeks and 1 day in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Chesed sheb'Hod: When is submitting to another
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       an act of kindness?

From: Toby Katz
 
 
 
From: "Mandel, Seth via Avodah"  <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>

Regardless of when he may have actually  died (do we know when any of the 
Tannaim died?), there is no question but that  the celebrations are of 
non-Jewish origin. We have written testimony that the  m'qubbalim in Tzfat used to 
fast and gather at his qever on his yahrzeit and  learn the Zohar, and the 
celebration came from Jews who had adopted Arab  customs. 

 

Rabbi Seth Mandel
Sent from my iPhone

 
 
>>>>>
"Regardless of when he may have actually died...the m'qubbalim in Tzfat  
used to fast and gather at his qever on his yahrzeit"
 
 
Which day was his yahrzeit and how did they know?
 



--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


-------------------------------------------------------------------




-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20140514/87e5e58d/attachment-0001.htm>

From: Toby Katz
 

From: "Prof. Levine via Avodah"  <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>

From  http://tinyurl.com/3ddwkh4

>> The most well known explanation to  the connection between Rashbi and 
Lag Ba-Omer is that Rashbi died on that  day, and he was one of the 
students of R. Akiva. Assuming for a moment that  this is factually 
correct, it is quite strange that we celebrate Rashbi's  death. We 
don't celebrate the yarzheit of Avraham Avinu, Moshe Rabbeinu,  David 
HaMelech, or any other great people with bonfires. Rather, halakha  
states the opposite -- to fast on a yahrzeit, especially on those days  
that great people died. <<
 
 
-- YL

 
 
 
>>>>
 
From *The Book of Our Heritage* by Eliyahu Kitov (trans. R' Nachman  
Bulman):
(I dispense with ellipses for ease of reading):
 
 
--quote--
 
The 33rd day in the Omer count is observed as a Yom Hilula ("a day of  
memorial rejoicing") in honor of Rabi Shimon Bar Yochai.  
 
The day is celebrated with special festivity in the Holy cities in the Land 
 of Israel.
 
 
The occasion is especially marked by the rejoicing which takes place in  
Miron -- the place of burial of Rabi Shimon Bar Yochai and his son Rabi  
Elazar.  The character of the day is wrapped in mystery, in the esoteric  wisdom 
of the Sages of the Kabalah.  Just as this Hilulah is observed in  honor of 
RSBY it is also observed in honor of the Torah which he taught his  
disciples and which is inscribed in the Holy Zohar.
 
There is an ancient tradition that the demise of RSBY occurred on the 33rd  
day of the Omer, and that the day of his demise was filled with great light 
of  endless joy through the secret wisdom which he revealed to his 
disciples that  day -- and which were written down in the Zohar.  That day was to 
him and  his disciples like the day on which a groom rejoices under his 
Chupah.   Tradition relates that the sun had not set till he had revealed all that 
he had  been permitted to reveal -- whereupon the sun set and his soul 
ascended on  High.  (Zohar Ha'azinu)
 
For this reason the day is marked for rejoicing though the day of the death 
 of the righteous is a day for fasting.  Such was however the desire of 
Rabi  Shimon Bar Yochai, and many of our ancient Sages adopted the custom of 
investing  the day of his demise with a festive character.
 
The Ari and the greatest of his disciples -- who were greatly learned in  
this hidden wisdom -- disseminated among the people the great virtue of  
rejoicing in this Hilula.  Afterwards, the disciples of the Ba'al Shem Tov  -- 
who followed in the paths of the Sages of the Kabalah -- also strengthened  
this custom.  And thus Lag Ba'omer became a universal day of memorial to  
Rabi Shimon Bar Yochai.
 
--end quote--
 
 

--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


-------------------------------------------------------------------


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20140514/0f025b18/attachment-0001.htm>

R' Yitzchok Levine posted from elsewhere:

> We don't celebrate the yarzheit of Avraham Avinu, Moshe Rabbeinu,
> David HaMelech, or any other great people with bonfires. Rather,
> halakha states the opposite - to fast on a yahrzeit, especially
> on those days that great people died.

My understanding is that the Chevra Kadisha DOES make a seudah on Moshe
Rabbeinu's yahrzeit. Granted that seudah is not a bonfire, but it is most
certainly not a taanis.

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
STOP eating carbs
#1 Trick to do BEFORE you eat carbs (every time)
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/53739ee535a371ee4083cst02vuc

On 14/05/2014 11:53 AM, David Riceman via Avodah wrote:
>
> Perhaps a professional therapist on the list can comment, but I would
> be surprised to learn that therapists don't have an ethical rule
> saying that, beyond certain universally accepted norms (e.g., murder
> is bad), it's inappropriate for a therapist to impose his own ethical
> norms on his clients.

What difference does it make what so-called "ethical rule" members of a
trade have made up for themselves?  The Torah has actual authority to make
rules, and binds everybody whether they acknowledge it or not.   (This is
a general objection to dignifying union rules with the term "ethics", so
that one can say with a straight face that it's "unethical" for a plumber
to tell a client that he doesn't need the expensive system that another
plumber recommended.)


> So if an orthodox therapist wants to insist that his clients follow
> hilchos nidda he should restrict himself to an orthodox clientele, who
> can be presumed to agree with that norm.

Why?  Their agreement with the norm isn't necessary and doesn't change
anything.

> RMS has a problem of diplomacy.  He doesn't want to tell this therapist
> to restrict his practice to an orthodox clientele.

Of course not.  Why should he?

> He doesn't want to say that professional ethics trumps mesayyeia yedei
> ovrei aveirah (even if only through verbal encouragement).

Again, of course not.  How could it?


> He also doesn't want to give a clean halachic argument, since (as I
> pointed out) that has negative implications for everyone else's marriage
> as well.

But it doesn't.  Just because someone is assumed to be perutza ba'arayos
doesn't create an actual issur on her until we have specific knowledge.
But in this case the whole point of the question is predicting future
behaviour, so it's appropriate to take into account that just as you're
predicting future behaviour if they are reconciled, you must also predict
future behaviour if they're not.


-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

I think RDR isolated the critical issue in this whole discussion when he wrote: "I would be 
surprised to learn that therapists don't have an ethical rule saying 
that, beyond certain universally accepted norms (e.g., murder is bad), 
it's inappropriate for a therapist to impose his own ethical norms on 
his clients.  So if an orthodox therapist wants to insist that his 
clients follow hilchos nidda he should restrict himself to an orthodox 
clientele, who can be presumed to agree with that norm."

ISTM that when a therapist is presented with a situation that has different
approaches, she has an obligation to determine, perhaps after consulting
with a supervisor or colleague, which is the best therapudic approach to
take. Once that determination is made, if the therapist thinks it raises
halachic issues she should ask a shaila. And the rabbi to whom the question
is posed should, after carefully examining and understanding all the
"non-halachic" issues involved, should give an answer, one that should be
criticized, if at all, only on halachic grounds. 

And then, if the answer is that the preferred approach should not be
followed for halachic reasons, ISTM that the therapist should tell the
patient that she can no longer continue as the patients therapist and refer
the patient to another qualified therapist. If she does not do that,
although she may be following what she deems her values, by not providing
what she has determined is the best therapy I  would think she is violating
her professional obligations to her patient. 
Joseph

Sent from my iPhone

> As I mention every seven years when this subject comes up again, I find
it tremendously ironic that the biggest Zionists -- the most gung-ho "Don't
give back an inch!" types -- are at the same time the most devoted
believers in the principle of "Sell Eretz Yisrael to the Arabs.">>

For reasons of lo techanen the land is only sold to an Arab who already
lives in Israel and owns land and so we are not adding a new owner of land.

-- 
Eli Turkel
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20140514/072f796a/attachment-0001.htm>

On 14/05/2014 5:56 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
> : My guess is that this rov takes a broader view of the issur on having an
> : organ in a shul.  My understanding is that the issur was davka on organs
> : and not on other instruments, but perhaps he holds otherwise.
>
> OTOH, today, guitars and flutes are more commonly played in protestant
> settings than organs. So perhaps R Mikhah haLevi is translating the
> existing "gezeira" to the new reality.

AIUI, the original issur was not against copying the Lutherans, but against
copying the Reformers (who were copying the Lutherans).  So if it were to
be adapted to new circumstances one would have to look at current practise
in Reform temples, not in Lutheran churches.  Which would probably lead to
the same conclusion.

But I think most people take the issur as having been against specific
practises that at the time were seen as dangerous, and today it binds us
as a neder, so it only applies to the specific things that were included.


-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

On 14/05/2014 8:32 AM, Lisa Liel via Avodah wrote:
> On 5/13/2014 3:38 PM, Liron Kopinsky via Avodah wrote:
>> http://www.kipa.co.il/now/56807.html
>> What could the halachik objection be?

> Do you mean other than the Beit HaMikdash being in ruins?

That issur is not specific to a shul, or to davening.  If anything, it
applies to a restaurant, not to a shul.


-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

 From my experience, you can't make the assumption that people know 
about these fast days.  People are much more ignorant about things than 
we give them credit for.

Having said that, ISTM that employers accept that employees aren't 
always 100%. For example, in August after camps finish and before school 
starts people bring their kids in day after day and this is accepted. 
Kids are much more of a distraction than a headache caused by a fast.

Ben

On 5/14/2014 3:41 PM, Chana Luntz via Avodah wrote:
> Maybe you could say that a secular Israeli employee can be expected to know
> enough about datiim that they will know that they fast these fasts, and they
> employ anybody religious with that knowledge

On 14/05/2014 3:09 PM, Joseph Kaplan via Avodah wrote:
> ISTM that when a therapist is presented with a situation that has
> different approaches, she has an obligation to determine, perhaps
> after consulting with a supervisor or colleague, which is the best
> therapudic approach to take. Once that determination is made, if the
> therapist thinks it raises halachic issues she should ask a shaila.
> And the rabbi to whom the question is posed should, after carefully
> examining and understanding all the "non-halachic" issues involved,
> should give an answer, one that should be criticized, if at all, only
> on halachic grounds.
>
> And then, if the answer is that the preferred approach should not be
> followed for halachic reasons, ISTM that the therapist should tell
> the patient that she can no longer continue as the patients therapist
> and refer the patient to another qualified therapist. If she does not
> do that, although she may be following what she deems her values, by
> not providing what she has determined is the best therapy I  would
> think she is violating her professional obligations to her patient.

What greater mesayea` yedei ovrei avera could there be?!  If the psak was
that you may not assist the patient in doing an avera, then it follows that
you may not refer the patient to a practitioner without such scruples.

Imagine if someone tried to hire you to commit a murder, and you're too
squeamish to do so yourself, but instead you referred them to a hit man
who will be willing to do as the client wishes.  When the victim was killed
you would share in the guilt -- and if the "client" turned out to be an FBI
informer you would be arrested for conspiracy.  So how is this different?
If the psak halacha is that the patient's health is less important than
the avera involved, then the patient must be treated in some less-optimal
way; the fact that the patient is a criminal who doesn't care about the law
and would rather be cured by the most optimal means is irrelevant.

-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

On 14/05/2014 12:49 PM, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
> R' Yitzchok Levine posted from elsewhere:
>
>> >We don't celebrate the yarzheit of Avraham Avinu, Moshe Rabbeinu,
>> >David HaMelech, or any other great people with bonfires. Rather,
>> >halakha states the opposite - to fast on a yahrzeit, especially
>> >on those days that great people died.

> My understanding is that the Chevra Kadisha DOES make a seudah on
> Moshe Rabbeinu's yahrzeit. Granted that seudah is not a bonfire, but
> it is most certainly not a taanis.

Actually it is a taanis, followed at night by a seudah.  The minhag of
Polish ch"k was to observe this on 7 Adar, but in Lita it was done on
15 Kislev, and I've also seen references to a minhag somewhere of doing
it on 29 Shevat.

-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 12:49 PM, Kenneth Miller wrote:
> R' Yitzchok Levine posted from elsewhere:
>> We don't celebrate the yarzheit of Avraham Avinu, Moshe Rabbeinu,
>> David HaMelech, or any other great people with bonfires. Rather,
>> halakha states the opposite - to fast on a yahrzeit, especially
>> on those days that great people died.

> My understanding is that the Chevra Kadisha DOES make a seudah on Moshe
> Rabbeinu's yahrzeit. Granted that seudah is not a bonfire, but it is most
> certainly not a taanis.

They have a taanis and then the seudah after.


------------------------------



_______________________________________________
Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


------------------------------


**************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."


A list of common acronyms is available at
        http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/acronyms.cgi
(They are also visible in the web archive copy of each digest.)