Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 71

Mon, 28 Apr 2014

• 1. obsession with kitniyot (Eli Turkel)
• 2. Re: Selling Chometz Gomer Before Pesach (Dov Ber)
• 3. Re: Selling Chometz Gomer Before Pesach (Kenneth Miller)
• 4. Selling Chometz Gomer Before Pesach (Marty Bluke)
• 5. Re: Selling Chometz Gomer Before Pesach (Prof. Levine)
• 6. Re: Selling Chometz Gomer Before Pesach (Kenneth Miller)
• 7. Re: Selling Chometz Gomer Before Pesach (Marty Bluke)
• 8. Re: Selling Chometz Gomer Before Pesach (Zev Sero)
• 9. chumra correlation (saul newman)
• 10. Shlissel Challah -- An Analysis (Eli Turkel)
• 11. Israelis should keep two days of Yom Tov in Chutz L'Aretz (Eli Turkel)
• 12. Re: Shlissel Challah (Isaac Balbin)

<<I wonder -- hashkafically speaking, now -- if Pesachdig blintzes, pasta,
and rolls do not defeat the entire meaning and spirit of Pesach.>>

I dont about Pesach but RSZA does say it violates the spirit of kitniyot

-- 
Eli Turkel
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> From: avodah-boun...@lists.aishdas.org [mailto:avodah-
> boun...@lists.aishdas.org] On Behalf Of Prof. Levine
> Sent: Monday, 28 April, 2014 12:12 AM


> I sell real chometz such as pasta,  etc.  

I notice that it is also listed
(http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-passover-chometzguideb4.htm) as real
chometz.

Why is pasta real chometz? Do they allow it to rise before baking?

I would imagine that they are quick to dry out the pasta to prevent it from
rising and deforming it's shape.

Akiva

R' Yitzchok Levine wrote:

> Well,  have a look at the list at 
> http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-passover-chometzguideb4.htm
> There you will see that flour is listed as not being real chometz ...

This surprises me very much. Rav Shimon Eider wrote, on page 214 of
Halachos of Pesach: "Since, nowadays, grain and flour are washed during the
manufacturing process, commercial flour should be considered as actual
chometz." His sources are both Mishneh Brurah 453:24 and *also* the local
mumchim from whom he heard this.

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
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R' Levine asserted that flour is not real chometz.

Just about all flour sold today is washed with water (see for example
http://www.ask.com/question/how-is-flour-made-today). Since the flour has
been exposed to water we are worried that it may have become chometz. Flour
used for the baking of matza is specially procured and has not been washed.

R' Levin asked why do some people not sell chometz gamur for Pesach?

The reason for an individual not to sell chometz gamur is the following.
Selling real chometz is a ha'arama on a do'raysa and therefore there are
those who hold that it is not permitted. Even if it is permitted why should
we actively try to make a ha'arama on a d'oraysa. Therefore, for a private
individual who generally does not have a large or valuable amount of
chometz it is better to simply get rid of the chometz and not sell it. A
store owner on the other hand, would suffer a heavy financial loss if he
would not sell his chometz and therefore he is permitted.

With regards to buying chometz after Pesach from a store owner who sold his
chametz there are a number of reasons to buy from him even if you don't
sell chometz gamur:
1. If you don't buy from him you will buy from a goy, in other words your
chumra will be at the expense of another Jew's parnassa.
2.We pasken that chometz sheavar alav hapesach is only d'rabbanan while
owning chometz on Pesach is d'oraysa. Therefore, before Pesach it makes
sense to be machmir and not sell chometz gamur to avoid any possibility of
violating the issur d'oraysa. However, after Pesach it is only an issur
d'rabbanan and therefore at worst sefeka d'rabbana l'kula.
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At 07:24 AM 4/28/2014, Marty Bluke wrote:
>R' Levine asserted that flour is not real chometz.

I relied on the Star-K for this assertion.  See 
http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-passover-chometzguideb4.htm 
This is not something that I made up on my own.


>Just about all flour sold today is washed with 
>water (see for example? 
><http://www.a
>sk.com/question/how-is-flour-made-today>http://www
>.ask.com/question/how-is-flour-made-today). 
>Since the flour has been exposed to water we are 
>worried that it may have become chometz. Flour 
>used for the baking of matza is specially procured and has not been washed.

There is more to this.  See http://kosherpoint.com/pesach/480

 From this web site


It follows that according to the Shulchan Aruch 
and Mishnah Berura, today?s flour which is not 
milled immediately after tempering, but stands 
unhandled for many hours, should be considered 
chametz. Indeed that is the position taken by 
several contemporary halachic authorities. They 
consider regular flour to be chametz which should 
be gotten rid of before Pesach.

However, other authorities argue that the 
tempering process used today is different from 
that used in past generations. The Shulchan Aruch 
and Mishnah Berura refer to wheat which was 
actually soaked in water for a short time. Today, 
the wheat is not soaked ? it is sprayed for a few 
seconds with just enough water to barely dampen 
the kernels. No water droplets are visible on 
them. The entire process is controlled so that 
the wheat generally does not crack. According to 
these authorities, such wheat is not real chametz 
and although it should not be used on Passover, 
one may be lenient and sell it to a non-Jew.

Also see the 3 opinions at the end of this web page.  The third opinion is


3)  Flour is not chametz at all and may even be kept at home

In practice, nowadays, even though regular flour 
which is not kosher for Passover, should not be 
allowed for matza baking, it is permissible to 
keep the flour at home during Pesach without 
selling to a non-Jew? ? - 
<http://www.tzohar.org.il/?content=%D7%94%D7%A7%D7%9E%D
7%97-%D7%91%D7%99%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%95-%D7%95%D7%9B%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%95%D7
%AA%D7%95-%D7%9C%D7%A4%D7%A1%D7%97>Rabbi 
Moshe Bigel ? Tzohar



>R' Levin asked why do some people not sell chometz gamur for Pesach?
>
>The reason for an individual not to sell chometz 
>gamur is the following. Selling real chometz is 
>a ha'arama on a do'raysa and therefore there are 
>those who hold that it is not permitted. Even if 
>it is permitted why should we actively try to 
>make a ha'arama on a d'oraysa. Therefore, for a 
>private individual who generally does not have a 
>large or valuable amount of chometz it is better 
>to simply get rid of the chometz and not sell 
>it. A store owner on the other hand, would 
>suffer a heavy financial loss if he would not 
>sell his chometz and therefore he is permitted.?

Either the sale is valid or it is not.  If it is 
not valid,  then what is one doing when one sells 
one's chometz.  And also,  if it is not 
valid,  then why do many rabbonim today perform 
the sale of chometz gomer for their 
congregants.  If the sale is not valid,  then this is a real ha'arama!


>With regards to buying chometz after Pesach from 
>a store owner who sold his chametz there are a 
>number of reasons to buy from him even if you don't sell chometz gamur:
>1. If you don't buy from him you will buy from a 
>goy, in other words your chumra will be at the 
>expense of another Jew's parnassa.
>2.We pasken that chometz sheavar alav hapesach 
>is only d'rabbanan while owning chometz on 
>Pesach is d'oraysa. Therefore, before Pesach it 
>makes sense to be machmir and not sell chometz 
>gamur to avoid any possibility of violating the 
>issur d'oraysa. However, after Pesach it is only 
>an issur d'rabbanan and therefore at worst sefeka d'rabbana l'kula.

One more time.  Either the sale is valid or not 
for *everyone*  both store owners and private individuals.

YL


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R' Yitzchok Levine wrote:

> Her friend then asserted that flour was chometz and one should not
> sell real chometz.  My wife countered with "What is matzah made
> from?"  If flour is chometz that how can you bake matza from it?
> Her friend was silent.

In my previous post, I should have pointed out that *both* of these women
were correct. Mrs. Levine is of course correct that if plain flour were
chometz, we could not make matza from it, and this is a simple proof that
plain flour is *not* chometz.

The other woman is also correct, but I should have stressed that she was
not talking about plain flour. Rather she - and the MB 453:24 - is talking
about modern commercial flour, which is presumably washed thoroughly before
reaching the consumer.

> I fail to understand why people do not sell real chometz yet go
> out right after Pesach and buy real chometz from stores that did
> sell real chometz.
> Is not what is good for the goose good for the gander?

This bothered me too for many years, but then someone offered me an
explanation: A person might worry that the sale is not fully effective, and
therefore he prefers to be strict and not sell any real chometz himself.
But if someone else wants to rely on the mechira to sell their chometz, he
has no qualms with that. Further, once Pesach is over, there is no longer
any d'Oraisa of owning chometz, only a d'rabanan of Chometz She'avar Alav
Pesach. So while he preferred not to rely on the mechira in the face of the
d'Oraisa, he has no problem relying on it himself when the issue is
"merely" d'rabanan.

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
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On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 4:18 PM, Prof. Levine <llev...@stevens.edu> wrote:

>
> I relied on the Star-K for this assertion.  See
> http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-passover-chometzguideb4.htm    This is
> not something that I made up on my own.
>
> ...

> There is more to this.  See http://kosherpoint.com/pesach/480
>
> ...
> Also see the 3 opinions at the end of this web page.  The third opinion is
>
> *3)  Flour is not chametz at all and may even be kept at home* In
> practice, nowadays, even though regular flour which is not kosher for
> Passover, should not be allowed for matza baking, it is permissible to keep
> the flour at home during Pesach without selling to a non-Jew? ? - Rabbi
> Moshe Bigel ? Tzohar<http://www.tzohar.org.il/?content=%D7%9
> 4%D7%A7%D7%9E%D7%97-%D7%91%D7%99%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%95-%D7%95%D7%9B%
> D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%AA%D7%95-%D7%9C%D7%A4%D7%A1%D7%97>
>
Exactly, there are 3 opinions, 2 of them requiring flour to be sold, with
one of them being that washed  flour is Chametz gamur. Given the fact that
there is an opinion that flour is chametz gamur, and an additional opinion
that it should be sold, why are you surprised that many people think that
flour is chometz?

...

> Either the sale is valid or it is not.  If it is not valid,  then what is
> one doing when one sells one's chometz.  And also,  if it is not valid,
> then why do many rabbonim today perform the sale of chometz gomer for their
> congregants.  If the sale is not valid,  then this is a real ha'arama!
>
Life and halacha are not black and white. Many of those who don't sell real
chometz hold that since there are acharonim who hold that you are not
allowed to sell real chometz we should be machmir for that opinion. It
doesn't mean that when push comes to shove we pasken like that opinion,
rather, it is a chumra that they have accepted on themselves given their
situation (a private person with little real chometz and little loss or
hardship by not selling their chometz). However, someone who owns a store
that sells chometz will most probably not adopt this chumra give the loss
of a large amount of money and business that this chumra will entail. This
is how the halachic process works, many times in shulchan aruch we find
hefsed meruba coming into play in terms of deciding whether to be machmir
or not.

>
> ...
>
> One more time.  Either the sale is valid or not for *everyone*  both store
> owners and private individuals.
>

You completely missed the point.  An individual can be machmir for himself
and not rely on the sale. However, he should not be machmir at the expense
of other people especially if it will cost them a lot of money.

In addition, the fact is that that even those acharonim who hold that you
are not allowed to sell real chometz don't say that the sale is not valid.
Rather, they claim that since the sale is a ha'arama on a d'oraysa you
aren't allowed to do it. However, if you violate the issur the sale would
be valid. Therefore, people are machmir on themselves not to violate the
issur according to these acharonim. However, after Pesach, the sale was
certainly valid and therefore the sold chometz is permitted.

>
> YL
>
>
>
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On 27/04/2014 5:12 PM, Prof. Levine wrote:
> When my wife told someone that she baked bread Motzoei Pesach (We
> bought a bread machine a few weeks ago.) her friend asked where she
> got the ingredients. My wife told her that we sold them with our
> chometz. Her friend then asserted that flour was chometz and one
> should not sell real chometz. My wife countered with "What is matzah
> made from?" If flour is chometz that how can you bake matza from it?
> Her friend was silent.

That's an easy one.  Matzah is not made from ordinary flour.  It's made
from flour that has been guarded to make sure that it did not become wet.
Ordinary flour is made from grain that definitely *has* been wet.  Whether
this makes it chometz is a more complicated question (see below), but your
wife's response is not correct.

> When I told someone yesterday who is a magid shiur in a Bais Medrash
> that my wife had baked bread Motzoei Pesach and that we had the
> ingredients, namely flour, yeast, and oil which we had sold with our
> chometz, he countered that flour was real chometz. I asserted that it
> was not.

> Well, have a look at the list at
> http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-passover-chometzguideb4.htm

> There you will see that flour is listed as not being real chometz and
> that yeast (Baker's) one need not even sell!

The issue is that grain is tempered with water before milling.   There is
no doubt at all that this happens; the question is whether this makes it
actual chometz.  This is the subject of a machlokes rishonim, and the upshot
is that the OU and other hechsherim treat it as sofek chometz.  On Pesach
itself it's a sofek de'oraisa, so we must be machmir and not own it.  After
Pesach it's a sofek derabonon, so we don't have to worry about buying it
from those who didn't sell it.   http://tinyurl.com/lwzg4w7

> I fail to understand why people do not sell real chometz yet go out
> right after Pesach and buy real chometz from stores that did sell
> real chometz.  Is not what is good for the goose good for the gander?

No.  I can't say exactly why they don't sell real chometz, but it's a fact
that people exist who aren't comfortable with the idea and don't do it.
That's their prerogative.  There's no mitzvah to sell chometz, and by not
selling it they are not casting doubt on the mishneh that one may sell
chometz to a goy on Erev Pesach before it becomes forbidden.  It may be
compared to someone who refrains from eating anything on which a shayla
has been asked, even if the answer was "kosher"; he has no chiyuv to eat
it, so his refraining from doing so is not casting doubt on the psak.

But if a shopkeeper did sell his chometz, and you refuse to eat it after
Pesach, you're not just passively refraining from a heter, you're accusing
him of doing something wrong.  After all, if he didn't do anything wrong
why does he deserve to be punished by having his chometz forbidden?  Chometz
she'ovar olov hapesach is a knas, after all.  Such a person is saying that
his failure to sell chometz wasn't just a personal preference or an extreme
hiddur, but a binding halacha, and this shopkeeper is a rasha for not doing
the same!   Accordingly it seems to me to verge on the shayla of whether one
is giving the appearance of being a Tzedoki.

(I write this having been in a shop last week while some nudnik was holding
up the queue and driving the shopkeeper crazy trying to determine whether
the chometz he wanted to buy had been subject to mechiras chometz.  On his
way out, without having bought anything, I pointed out this problem to him.)


[Email #2]

On 27/04/2014 10:13 PM, I wrote:
> I can't say exactly why they don't sell real chometz, but it's a fact
> that people exist who aren't comfortable with the idea and don't do it.

I have since thought of a good reason for such a chumrah: it has happened,
more often than would seem statistically likely, that the goy to whom the
chometz was sold turns out later to be a yid.   (I remember the year my
mother gave the leftovers of Erev Pesach breakfast to our neighbour rather
than throw them out, only for her to mention months later that her mother's
parents had been Jewish.)  If one is careful not to sell chometz gomur, one
is that much safer from being machshil a fellow yid in bal yero'eh and bal
yimotzei.


[Email #3]

On 28/04/2014 3:21 AM, Dov Ber wrote:
> Why is pasta real chometz? Do they allow it to rise before baking?

Pasta is not baked!  It's dough that is cut and allowed to dry.  By definition
it's chametz.


[Email #4]

On 28/04/2014 7:24 AM, Marty Bluke wrote:

> The reason for an individual not to sell chometz gamur is the following.
> Selling real chometz is a ha'arama on a do'raysa and therefore there are
> those who hold that it is not permitted.

How is it a ha'arama?  The chametz is not yours; the Torah is not at all
concerned with it any more.  End of story.

And who holds that it's not permitted?  That there are those who prefer not
to do it doesn't mean they doubt that it's permitted.  It seems to me that
one who really doesn't believe it's permitted must be some sort of Tzedoki.


[Email #5]

On 28/04/2014 7:02 AM, Kenneth Miller wrote:
> This surprises me very much. Rav Shimon Eider wrote, on page 214 of
> Halachos of Pesach: "Since, nowadays, grain and flour are washed
> during the manufacturing process, commercial flour should be
> considered as actual chometz." His sources are both Mishneh Brurah
> 453:24 and*also*  the local mumchim from whom he heard this.

Flour is indeed washed, but as the article I linked to yesterday explains,
this only makes it safek chametz.

-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

in thinking  about  gebroks, selling chametz  gammur etc     ,  i wonder if
there is a correlation--- ie  one chumra  leads to another;   or , were
these community based and  therefore eg  one could eat knaidlach but throw
out the cereal....
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<<Based on this will people agree that the baking of shlissel challah is
a part of what I call the "New Religion"?>>
<<No, it is not part of a new religion.  Are new minhagim not allowed?  Did
the Yahadus have to stop evolving and no new minhagim, chumros,kulos, and
SHuT have to stop with the period of the Rishonim?>>

For example is kabbalat shabbat part of the "new religion" after all it is
not in the siddur
of the geonim or Rashi?
Indeed much of modern Judaism is based on statements/customs  from the Ari.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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<<I haven't seen anywhere that minyanim for
tefilat chol are forbidden, but the objection seems obvious enough.  The
achronim probably never even contemplated an entire minyan of Bnei EY in
the same place.>>

However the reverse situation of chutz L'aRetz people in Israel is already
discussed by Rav Yosef Karo. It seems to already have been common in his
day to have a minyan for those from outside of Israel. He is not happy with
the idea but nevertheless it remains common until today.

Any reason that the 2 situations should be different?

-- 
Eli Turkel
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http://www.yutorah.com/lect
ures/lecture.cfm/772117/Rabbi_Hershel_Schachter/Segulas,_Superstition,_and_
the_Ayin_Hara

???? ??????? ????? ????? ????


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