Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 70

Mon, 28 Apr 2014

• 1. Re: obsession with kitniyot (Zev Sero)
• 2. Re: A posuk with no dagesh (Liron Kopinsky)
• 3. Re: obsession with kitniyot (Lisa Liel)
• 4. Re: obsession with kitniyot (T6...@aol.com)
• 5. Ad Shetechpatz (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 6. Re: obsession with kitniyot (Ken Bloom)
• 7. A posuk with no dagesh (H Lampel)
• 8. The Connection Between Fearing Parents and Shabbos (Prof. Levine)
• 9. Re: vav hahipuch (David Riceman)
• 10. Re: obsession with kitniyot (Ben Waxman)
• 11. Re: obsession with kitniyot (Zev Sero)
• 12. Re: obsession with kitniyot (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: obsession with kitniyot (Zev Sero)
• 14. Selling Chometz Gomer Before Pesach (Prof. Levine)
• 15. Minhag HaMakom (was obsession with kitniyot) (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 16. Re: Selling Chometz Gomer Before Pesach (Ben Waxman)
• 17. Israelis should keep two days of Yom Tov in Chutz L'Aretz (Eli Turkel)

On 26/04/2014 10:05 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 04:21:48PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> : >There used to be peanut oil, kosher for Pesach. I mean, Rav Moshe
> : >said that peanuts are absolutely, 100%, not kitniyot in any way,
> : >shape or form.
> :
> : So?  Not everyone agrees with him...
>
> I think this framing is flawed. Rather, qitniyos is minhag, and thus
> regional. RMF reported the minhag in the area around Luban, it needn't
> be the same minhag as reported by the Rama.
>
> There are numerous historically attested to versions of qitniyos.
> Some include mei qitniyos, and of them not all include shemen qitniyos.
> Some include anything where the same logic would spply -- although not
> potatos she'ein hatzibur yekholim laamod ba. Others kept the list to
> specific items. Since they are all minhagim of different communities,
> I don't see how one can be asserted as more right, nor more "iffy",
> than another.

If you look at the poskim they all assume that it's the same minhag all over
Europe, coming from the same source (whether bottom-up or top-down), that all
the sources they cite are talking about the exact same minhag, and that it
has objectively determinable parameters.

-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

Maybe it's to show that should shouldn't misbalance your weights with even
the smallest little "dagesh".

Kol Tuv,
Liron


On Sun, Apr 27, 2014 at 5:23 AM, H Lampel <zvilam...@gmail.com> wrote:

>  This Shabbos I somehow noticed something apparently unique in the posuk
> in Kedoshim about honest weights (Vayikra 19:36). Not one letter of that
> posuk has a dagesh in it. I'm wondering if there is any other such posuk.(An if there is a point to this (;-))
>
> Zvi Lampel
>
>
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-- 
Liron Kopinsky
liron.kopin...@gmail.com
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And there's a (probably) apocryphal story of a small yishuv in Israel 
where, one Shabbat, a few people were away visiting relatives, leaving 
only 9 Ashkenazi men and 9 Sephardi men on the yishuv for Shabbat, so 
that no one could daven with a minyan.

On 4/26/2014 1:50 PM, Ben Waxman wrote:
> The problem you are pointing out here is one of general education, not
> just kitniyot.  I remember some guy telling me it is better to daven
> alone than in a minyan with a different nusach. Go figure.

 
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
: I wonder --  hashkafically speaking, now -- if Pesachdig blintzes, pasta, 
 
: and  rolls do not defeat the entire meaning and spirit of Pesach.   [--TK]


....there is no one authoritative answer to "the entire  meaning of spirit
of Pesach". 

....Me, I'm uncomfortable with the implication in your words that  avoiding
chameitz is about deprivation. It would be -- again, to my way  of
looking at things -- a weird feature for a week in which I am  obligated
to rejoice.


-- 
Micha  Berger             

 
 
>>>>
 
Pesach is not about deprivation, but about eating /different/ food than you 
 eat the whole year.  The very fact of eating /different/ food makes you  
aware that something unusual happened, something we want to remember every 
year  and that we want our children to remember.  I don't have any halachic  
problem with "fake chometz" that is actually Pesachdig, but if you eat 
virtually  the same food on Pesach that you eat all year -- blintzes, pizza, 
pasta,  hamburger rolls -- you are not feeling the difference between Pesach and 
the  rest of the year.  Indeed you are trying to obliterate that  difference.
 
Mah nishtana halaylah hazeh? -- if nothing is different?
 
Here is a personal memory:  my grandmother a'h always had coffee  perking 
on the stove, in an old-fashioned coffeepot with a glass bubble on  top. Her 
apartment always smelled of coffee.  As a result, to  this day, when I walk 
into Starbucks and breathe the air, warm waves of  nostalgia wash over me, 
and my grandparents seem to be sitting in every  Starbucks.
 
So you might think that what you eat makes no difference to anything and  
isn't related to the holiday in any important way but human experience 
suggests  otherwise.
 

--Toby  Katz
..
=============


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There?s a famous Vort attributed to Ramban on Shir HaShirim 8:4:
???-????????? ?????-?????????? ???-?????????, ??? ???????????? When one has
a His?orerus, they should do something physical ? Ad Shetechpatz ? to make
it ?take.? I couldn?t find this Ramban ? can anyone lead me in the right
direction? 

 

Thanks and KT,

MYG

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>
> : >There used to be peanut oil, kosher for Pesach. I mean, Rav Moshe
> : >said that peanuts are absolutely, 100%, not kitniyot in any way,
> : >shape or form.
> :
> : So?  Not everyone agrees with him...
> I think this framing is flawed. Rather, qitniyos is minhag, and thus
> regional. RMF reported the minhag in the area around Luban, it needn't
> be the same minhag as reported by the Rama.
> There are numerous historically attested to versions of qitniyos.
> Some include mei qitniyos, and of them not all include shemen qitniyos.
> Some include anything where the same logic would spply -- although not
> potatos she'ein hatzibur yekholim laamod ba. Others kept the list to
> specific items. Since they are all minhagim of different communities,
> I don't see how one can be asserted as more right, nor more "iffy",
> than another.


Is the problem here that the Ashkenazi world has been so shaken up by
migration and standardization that people don't remember their minhag avos
to any finer resolution than "I'm Ashkenazi?" Or they remember their
ancestry, but the details of particular countries' minhagim are lost, so
people can't make principled decisions about how to practice?

Standardization in the kashrut industry seems to push the set of available
products in the more machmir direction as food manufacturers try to appeal
to the largest possible audience.
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I wrote:

> in the posuk in Kedoshim about honest weights(Vayikra 19:36). Not one letter of that
posuk has a dagesh in it.  , I'm wondering if there is any other such
posuk.(An if there is a point to this (;-))<

Found some more:
Shema Yisrael Hashem Elolkeinu Hashem Echad (Devarim 6:4) .
Hashem yimloch l'olom va-ed (Shemos 15:18).

Of course, the printed dagesh is post-Mattan Torah. But the printed dagesh
kal and chazak (and mapik) represent grammatical considerations and the
(presumably invariable) technically resultant effects on the authentic
pronunciation of the consonants they are in.


  Zvi Lampel




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I am fond of saying that one cannot truly understand what Yahadus is 
about unless one is familiar with the writings of RSRH.  I believe 
that his commentary at the beginning a Parashas Kedoshim is just one 
"proof" of this.  One may read this commentary at

http://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/shabbos_fear_parents.pdf

For the record I have the permission of Dr. Elliott Bondi,  one of 
the editors of the Rabbi  Dr. Joseph Breuer Foundation,  and Feldheim 
Publishers to post selections from the writings of RSRH.  YL

RTK:

<<My brother-in-law asked me to find out for him the rules of vav 
hahipuch. Since he is fairly knowledgeable about dikduk I guess he is 
asking for something more complex than the simple rule "changes future 
to past and vice versa." >>

I recall hearing (I don't recall from whom) that there were two ancient 
dialects of Hebrew.  One used prefixes for all verbs and the other used 
suffixes.  They distinguished past from future by whether the accent was 
on the ultimate syllable or on the penultimate syllable.

The vav hahipuch changes the accented syllable, and could be used as a 
transitional form while the dialects merged.

I made a quick search and couldn't find this theory.  But see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waw-consecutive

and

http://balshanut.wordpress.com/2008/06/16/smith-mark-s-t
he-origins-and-development-of-the-waw-consecutive-harvard-semitic-studies-3
9-atlanta-scholars-press-1991/

David Riceman

Not aprocyphal. I don't know if I am a magnet for these things, but I 
did see 7 ashkenazim and 4 sefardim argue over whose shul to use (the 
two building were right next to each other). The end result was what you 
wrote.

Ben

On 4/27/2014 5:33 AM, Lisa Liel wrote:
> And there's a (probably) apocryphal story of a small yishuv in Israel 
> where, one Shabbat, a few people were away visiting relatives, leaving 
> only 9 Ashkenazi men and 9 Sephardi men on the yishuv for Shabbat, so 
> that no one could daven with a minyan.

On 27/04/2014 12:36 PM, Ben Waxman wrote:
> On 4/27/2014 5:33 AM, Lisa Liel wrote:

>> And there's a (probably) apocryphal story of a small yishuv in
>> Israel where, one Shabbat, a few people were away visiting
>> relatives, leaving only 9 Ashkenazi men and 9 Sephardi men on the
>> yishuv for Shabbat, so that no one could daven with a minyan.

> Not aprocyphal. I don't know if I am a magnet for these things, but I
> did see 7 ashkenazim and 4 sefardim argue over whose shul to use (the
> two building were right next to each other). The end result was what
> you wrote.

I'm glad to say that my experience is the exact opposite.  I've been quite
a few times in places where an Ashkenazi minyan and a Sefardi or Temani
one are in the same building, and they readily borrow people from each other
to make a minyan, or cohanim to duchen.


-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

On Sat, Apr 26, 2014 at 10:30:37PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
: >: >There used to be peanut oil, kosher for Pesach. I mean, Rav Moshe
: >: >said that peanuts are absolutely...

: >: So?  Not everyone agrees with him...

: >I think this framing is flawed. Rather, qitniyos is minhag, and thus
: >regional. RMF reported the minhag in the area around Luban...

: If you look at the poskim they all assume that it's the same minhag all over
: Europe, coming from the same source (whether bottom-up or top-down), that all
: the sources they cite are talking about the exact same minhag, and that it
: has objectively determinable parameters.

In particular, the RMF in question does not. I also do not know how many
posqim were talking in general, as opposed to their own community. Since
you don't provide mar'eh meqomos, I cannot check.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 12th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 5 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Hod sheb'Gevurah: What aspect of judgment
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  forces the "judge" into submission?

On 27/04/2014 2:25 PM, Micha Berger wrote:

> In particular, the RMF in question does not. I also do not know how many
> posqim were talking in general, as opposed to their own community. Since
> you don't provide mar'eh meqomos, I cannot check.

I went through this last year, I thought it was on Avodah but maybe I'm
misremembering the forum.  But I remember going through lots of sources and
finding that many of them were misquoted; the question RSBA often repeats
"hastu nachgeschaut" really is appropriate.  I found several opinions on the
nature of the issur, how it arose, and by what mechanism it's binding, but
everyone seemed to assume that whatever the answer, it's the same for all who
follow it.   For one thing, all the poskim who discuss it bring proofs from
different sources, and compare them with each other, which would be impossible
if it varied from community to community.

-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

When my wife told someone that she baked bread Motzoei Pesach (We 
bought a bread machine a few weeks ago.)  her friend asked where she 
got the ingredients.  My wife told her that we sold them with our 
chometz.  Her friend then asserted that flour was chometz and one 
should not sell real chometz.  My wife countered with "What is matzah 
made from?"  If flour is chometz that how can you bake matza from it? 
Her friend was silent.

When I told someone yesterday who is a magid shiur in a Bais Medrash 
that my wife had baked bread Motzoei Pesach and that we had the 
ingredients,  namely flour, yeast, and oil which we had sold with our 
chometz,  he countered that flour was real chometz.  I asserted that 
it was not.

Well,  have a look at the list at 
http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-passover-chometzguideb4.htm

There you will see that flour is listed as not being real chometz and 
that yeast (Baker's) one need not even sell!

I sell real chometz such as pasta,  etc.  When I moved to Brooklyn in 
1974, I went to the Chassidishe rov of the shul where I davened to 
sell my chometz. He asked me if I was selling real chometz, and I 
answered in the affirmative.  He said that he does not sell real 
chometz.  I said, "Either the sale is valid or I am wasting my time 
here."  He sold my chometz that year, but said that he would not in the future.

After that I sold my chometz through Rabbi A. Miller until he passed 
away.  He never asked me anything about selling real chometz.  After 
R. Miller was nifter,  I went to Rabbi Dr. Aaron Levine to sell my 
chometz.  He asked me,  "Are you selling real chometz?"  I 
said,  "Yes."  He replied,  "Good!  Reb Moshe also sold real chometz."

I fail to understand why people do not sell real chometz yet go out 
right after Pesach and buy real chometz from stores that did sell 
real chometz.

Is not what is good for the goose good for the gander?

YL

R' BW:
Not aprocyphal. I don't know if I am a magnet for these things, but I did
see 7 ashkenazim and 4 sefardim argue over whose shul to use (the two
building were right next to each other). The end result was what you wrote.

On 4/27/2014 5:33 AM, Lisa Liel wrote:
> And there's a (probably) apocryphal story of a small yishuv in Israel 
> where, one Shabbat, a few people were away visiting relatives, leaving 
> only 9 Ashkenazi men and 9 Sephardi men on the yishuv for Shabbat, so 
> that no one could daven with a minyan.

------------------------------------------ 

This reminds me of a question I was wondering about on Chol HaMoed - are
there still places where people wearing/not wearing Tefillin on Chol HaMoed
will daven alone, rather than joining with a minyan of the other minhag? In
my (very limited) experience, in such situations the two groups will join
together.

KT,
MYG

Rav Aviner recently wrote that the sale is 100% kosher, no questions 
asked - in theory. The problem is that people often aren't careful in 
writing down all the necessary details such as the exact address of all 
the chametz, what is being sold, etc.  Therefore he recommends that 
people (as opposed to businesses) sell only safeq chametz.

And yes, people do say that the current popular chumra of trying to get 
products made with flour ground after Pesach is problematic.

Ben

On 4/27/2014 11:12 PM, Prof. Levine wrote:
> I fail to understand why people do not sell real chometz yet go out 
> right after Pesach and buy real chometz from stores that did sell real 
> chometz.
>
> Is not what is good for the goose good for the gander? 

<<See http://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/pesach/israelis_chutz.pdf>>

As usually happens the signatures are from one segment of the community and
others with differing
(or even with similar opinions) are not included

-- 
Eli Turkel
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