Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 68

Fri, 25 Apr 2014

• 1. galut (Eli Turkel)
• 2. Re: vav hahipuch (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Shlissel Challah -- An Analysis (saul newman)
• 4. Re: Is there one halachic truth? (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: obsession with kitniyot (Kenneth Miller)
• 6. Re: shiurim (Eli Turkel)
• 7. Re: vav hahipuch (Lisa Liel)
• 8. Re: obsession with kitniyot (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: Is there one halachic truth? (Lisa Liel)
• 10. Re: vav hahipuch (Mandel, Seth)
• 11. Re: obsession with kitniyot (Lisa Liel)
• 12. Re: vav hahipuch (Lisa Liel)
• 13. Re: Is there one halachic truth? (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: obsession with kitniyot (Zev Sero)
• 15. Re: vav hahipuch (Micha Berger)

I heard a shiur today from Rav Druckman on the importance of Yom Haazmaut.
He used the term more churbano but much has relevance to our discussion of
galut.
Some of his points

1) Radak Tehilim 126:1 on "be-shuv hashem et shivat tzion ha-yinu
ke-cholmim"
The troubles of the galut will pass like a dream from the happiness when we
return to our land

2) Chovat Halevovot introduction to Shaar Habechinah gives an example how
an orphan brought up by adopted parents doesnt appreciate everything
because that was he whole life.
So almost all Jews today were born after the state of Israel or were young
children. Hence,
we all take the state for granted and dont realize the change from the days
of pogroms.
He told of students of his who went to the camps in Poland and said only
then did they realize the great jot of Israel independence day (this was
shortly after the expulsion from Gush Katif)

Similarly in the haggadah we stress that we were slaves because only who
was always free doesnt appreciate it (see Maharal Netzach Yisrael:1)

3) Ramban hasmatot to sefer hamitzvot - mitzva 4: There is a mitzva even
today to make sure the land is not desolate and is not controlled by other
nations. As long as the government is Jewish even if Achav is king we have
kept the mitzva.

4) One rips one's clothing when one sees the land of Judah in "churbano" .
Beit Yosef followed by Bach, Magen Avraham and Mishna Brura alll define
"churbano" as being under foreign sovereigny (eg Turkey or Britain). Peat
Hashulchan says that this applies to Judah (not other parts of Israel)
because the main kingdom of Israel was in Judah.

5) Rambam says that Tisha Baav was kept during the days of the second
Temple. Shut Tashbetz 2:271 says this is impossible and is obviously a
scribal error.

Sfat Emet says that days of  peace there will be happiness (ie no fast)
refers to days when the
rule is the hands of Jews. However, when Jews are in their own land but
governed by foreigners (Persians and Greeks) they did fast on Tisha Baav.

Rambam  (chanuka 3:1) stresses that we celebrate Chanulkka for 2 reasons
(1) the miracle of the oil (2) The Chashmanoim set up a king that lasted
forr 200 years until the Temple was destroyed. Note that the later kings
(eg Yanai) were wicked kings yet Rambam includes them in the victory of
Chanuka (Rambam on Yoma 1:3 explicitly notes that the kings were not
tzaddikim)

----------------------------------------------
So to answer Micha: According to the Sfat Emet the Jews were in galut in
their own land as long as there was no Jewsih government. So we speak of
galut yavan when the Persians and Sryian-Greeks ruled. However, once the
Chashmanoim took over galut Yavan ended. Similarly today until May 1948 the
Jews in EY were in galut. However, that ended with the beginning of a
Jewish government - and it is immaterial if the Jewish leaders are
tzaddikim or not.
------------------------------------------------


Hoshaya the great - Kiddush Hashem is greater than Chillul Hashem

Rav Tzvi Yehuda Kook asks - isnt this obvious? He answers that when there
are good and bad things happening one should stress the kiddush hashem of
having a Jewsih government and this otweighs the problems of a nonreligious
government

Yom Atzmaut Sameach

Eli Turkel

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 10:22:31AM -0400, T6...@aol.com wrote:
: My brother-in-law asked me to find out for him the rules of vav  hahipuch.  

From http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/klarberg/archives/vayelech62.htm

    About Vav

    About Vav vayelech (Deut. 31:1) ('and then he [Moshe] went') In form
    this is a verb in the future tense. However the Vav changes it to
    past tense. This Vav is known as Vav HaHipuch or Vav Conversive. Vav
    HaHipuch that changes future tense to past tense normally has
    a Patach and is followed by a Dagesh as in vayelech. When Vav
    HaHipuch is followed by Yud with a Sheva the Dagesh is omitted as
    in vaytzav (Deut. 31:10) ('and then he [Moshe] commanded). However
    Alef does not take a Dagesh. Thus when Vav HaHipuch is followed
    by Alef, Vav HaHipuch has a Kamatz as in va:atzaveh (Deut. 1:16)
    ('and then I [Moshe] commanded'). This is 'compensation' for the
    omitted Dagesh. However in vaatzavenu (Deut. 31:15) ('and I [G-d]
    will command him') the Vav has a Patach, because it is a regular
    Vav HaChibur that means 'and.' (Although Vav HaChibur normally has
    a Sheva, here it has a Patach because of the rule which does not
    allow two Shevas at the beginning of a word, and Chataf-Patach is
    a variety of Sheva. In this case the Vav has the vowel closest to
    the type of Chataf-vowel following.)

    Vav HaHipuch that changes past tense to future tense has the same
    vowels as Vav HaChibur. It is usually Sheva but it undergoes
    changes before words starting with the letters Bet, Vav, Mem,
    Peh, or Yud, or before words where the first letter has a Sheva
    (or a Chataf-vowel). Sometimes it is accompanied by the main stress
    being moved to the last syllable which helps distinguish between
    Vav HaChibur and Vav HaHipuch from past tense to future tense. At
    other times it is impossible to distinguish between them. In one
    such case (Num.10:31) Rashi provides two explanations, allowing for
    both possibilities.

People who study these things would quibble that "yeilekh" isn't a future
tense word, and therefore despite the name "vav hahipuch", the vav isn't
really changing it to past tense either.

What we think of a tenses in LhQ are really grammatical aspects. "Halakh"
is perfect, "yeilekh" is imperfect. "Vayeilekh" is "he was going",
as opposed to "halakh", "he went". The vav anchors / connects the verb
to the point in the narrative, so that the "yeilekh" means the going
wasn't done yet at this point in the story (rather at the time the verse
was written). It thus implies the "was".

There is also no present tense. "Boneh Y-m" is both HQBH as the Builder of
J-m and a statement that He is building Jerusalem. To be doing something
is an attribute, present tense verbs are nouns.

I suggested that tense is only implied in LhQ because it was made for
aiding communication with One Who is lemaaleh min hazman.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp/divine-timelessness-ii-hebrew-tenses

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 10th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Gevurah: When does strict
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  judgment bring balance and harmony?

http://thepartialview.blogspot.com/2013/04/shlissel-chalah-key
-to-making-it.html

10 reasons pro, one con.....

On Sat, Apr 19, 2014 at 08:33:03PM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
:> Well, this is probably my last Y-mi-ism... Nidah 2:7, vilna 9a.
:> Yitzchaq bar Yonasan and Rav were sitting when a woman approached RYbY
:> and asked him about a mar'eh. He wanted to defer, but was declined. "The
:> one who the questioner came before should answer."

:>  ...                          Doesn't this Y-mi indicate (if not prove)
:> that the point of pesaq is to rule based on legal authority, rather than
:> to determine halakhah as a pre-existing absolute truth?

: No, why would you think so?  All this discusses is methods for
: determining the truth of a particular instance.  It has nothing to
: do with the idea that truth is something objective that exists with
: or without our acknowledgement.

But the expert, the person most likely to determine facts correctly,
tells RYbY that he isn't the right person to answer the she'eilah. The
deciding factor for who should be providing the answer is not expertise
with the metzius but which rabbi was asked.

Is that possible of any truth-finding system?

OTOH, if it's a law-finding system (or possibly some other system),
then there could be legal authority given to the rabbi being asked
BECAUSE he is the one being asked.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 10th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Gevurah: When does strict
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  judgment bring balance and harmony?

R"n Toby Katz wrote:

> In the kosher supermarket here in Miami when I went shopping for
> Pesach I found an unbelievable array of Pesachdig non-kitniyos
> cakes, cookies, drinks, prepared meat and poultry, fish, ...
> For those who don't eat gebrochts the range of choices is only
> slightly smaller. ...

Ditto for my area of NJ/NY. But I think RLL was talking about Israel.

> I wonder -- hashkafically speaking, now -- if Pesachdig blintzes,
> pasta, and rolls do not defeat the entire meaning and spirit of
> Pesach.  

Oh, yes, of *course* they defeat the entire meaning and spirit of Pesach! -
To the same degree that baco bits and pareve coffee creamer defeat the
entire meaning and spirit of general kashrus. :-)

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
The #1 Worst Carb Ever?
Click to Learn #1 Carb that Kills Your Blood Sugar (Don't Eat This!)
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/535a9c95a37db1c952be5st02vuc

In a previous post I wrote "According to Chazon Ish a tefach is 2.4 cm".
Rabbi Teitz pointed out that of course it should be an etzba is 2.4cm and
not a tefach.

kol tuv
Eli Turkel

On 4/25/2014 12:13 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> What we think of a tenses in LhQ are really grammatical aspects. "Halakh"
> is perfect, "yeilekh" is imperfect. "Vayeilekh" is "he was going",
> as opposed to "halakh", "he went". The vav anchors / connects the verb
> to the point in the narrative, so that the "yeilekh" means the going
> wasn't done yet at this point in the story (rather at the time the verse
> was written). It thus implies the "was".

So you're saying that "Vayedaber Hashem el Moshe" means "And Hashem was 
speaking to Moshe"?  As opposed to "And Hashem spoke to Moshe"? I can't 
say what I think about that.  It sounds jarring to me, but then, I'm not 
used to that sort of phrasing.  "Vayomer Hashem yehi or, vayehi or" 
would be "And Hashem was saying 'there will be light' and light was"?  I 
have to think about it.

Lisa

On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 12:53:18AM -0400, T6...@aol.com wrote:
: I wonder -- hashkafically speaking, now -- if Pesachdig blintzes, pasta,  
: and rolls do not defeat the entire meaning and spirit of Pesach.  

There is no process of pesaq for aggadita, beyond perhaps in the extreme
cases of where the aggadic question has halachic impact -- eg deciding
whose wine I can drink.

So, there is no one authoritative answer to "the entire meaning of spirit
of Pesach". Which may be why the choice of chumeros and hanhagos tovos
must be subjective. It's also somewhat tautological -- if they were
objective, they would be halakhah or minhag, kind of by definition.

Me, I'm uncomfortable with the implication in your words that avoiding
chameitz is about deprevation. It would be -- again, to my way of
looking at things -- a weird feature for a week in which I am obligated
to rejoice.

And are you as bothered by someone who uses a heter isqa as defeating the
whole meaning and spirit of the issurim against taking neshekh vetarbit?

The Tanchuma (Shemini, Buber #12) makes a point of telling us that for
every treif food, there is a kosher food that tastes identically. E.g. The
shibuta, a fish, tastes like pork, and basar bechalav is okay when its
chalav chayah -- at least deOraisa. Similarly, dam besulim is listed as
paralleling dam nidah, eishes ach vs yevamah, etc...

OTOH, we did end up minimizing yibum just because for too many men it
was about eishes ach. And we prohibited chalav chayah when we prohbited
basar be'of. Etc...

I am also reminded of the famous Toras Kohanim and Ramban who elaborates
on it at the beginning of this week's parashah, "qedoshim tihyu". The
question is how we define perishus. Is the naval birshus haTorah a
menuval because he circumvents the presumed point of kashrus or arayos or
whatever? Or because he makes his life all about the pursuit of physical
pleasure and reducing halakhah to a feature of that pursuit?

I think that's the key to explaining my "OTOH".

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 10th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Gevurah: When does strict
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  judgment bring balance and harmony?

On 4/25/2014 1:44 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 19, 2014 at 08:33:03PM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
> :> Well, this is probably my last Y-mi-ism... Nidah 2:7, vilna 9a.
> :> Yitzchaq bar Yonasan and Rav were sitting when a woman approached RYbY
> :> and asked him about a mar'eh. He wanted to defer, but was declined. "The
> :> one who the questioner came before should answer."
>
> :>  ...                          Doesn't this Y-mi indicate (if not prove)
> :> that the point of pesaq is to rule based on legal authority, rather than
> :> to determine halakhah as a pre-existing absolute truth?
>
> : No, why would you think so?  All this discusses is methods for
> : determining the truth of a particular instance.  It has nothing to
> : do with the idea that truth is something objective that exists with
> : or without our acknowledgement.
>
> But the expert, the person most likely to determine facts correctly,
> tells RYbY that he isn't the right person to answer the she'eilah. The
> deciding factor for who should be providing the answer is not expertise
> with the metzius but which rabbi was asked.
But that isn't what's happening.  First of all, read the line before 
it.  The question is, how do you learn to pasken?  Then we see Rav Huna 
(not Rav, though Huna is omitted in the text of the Yerushalmi) sitting 
with Yitzchak bar Yonatan, and a woman asks the latter a shayla.  He 
tries to beg off in favor of Rav Huna, but Rav Huna tells him that he 
should answer the question he was asked.  This is clearly an 
illustration of how you learn to pasken such shaylas.  By doing so under 
the supervision of a more experienced rav.

There's no implication whatsoever that Rav Huna was suggesting that his 
talmid needed to answer /because/ he was the one who was asked, and that 
an answer from Rav Huna himself would have been somehow less correct.

Lisa

On 4/25/2014 12:13 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>> What we think of a tenses in LhQ are really grammatical aspects. "Halakh"
>> is perfect, "yeilekh" is imperfect. "Vayeilekh" is "he was going",
>> as opposed to "halakh", "he went"....

On Apr 25, 2014, at 1:26 PM, "Lisa Liel" <l...@starways.net> wrote:
> So you're saying that "Vayedaber Hashem el Moshe" means "And Hashem
> was speaking to Moshe"? As opposed to "And Hashem spoke to Moshe"? ...
> I'm not used to that sort of phrasing. "Vayomer Hashem yehi or, vayehi
> or" would be "And Hashem was saying 'there will be light' and light was"?
> I have to think about it.

That isn't what Micha was saying; he was referring to what the imperfect
aspect meant.

However, when used with the vav hahippukh, the form meant the linguistic
"narrative" form: "and then he went," "and then he said," or "and so he
went" etc. The "and" was an integral part of the meaning.

Which is why this form can only be used to follow a verb that establishes
the tense: bara to start the narrative, or a future/jussive/imperative
followed by the other vav hahippukh.

Rabbi Seth Mandel
Sent from my iPhone

On 4/25/2014 12:33 PM, Kenneth Miller wrote:
> R"n Toby Katz wrote:
>
>> In the kosher supermarket here in Miami when I went shopping for
>> Pesach I found an unbelievable array of Pesachdig non-kitniyos
>> cakes, cookies, drinks, prepared meat and poultry, fish, ...
>> For those who don't eat gebrochts the range of choices is only
>> slightly smaller. ...
> Ditto for my area of NJ/NY. But I think RLL was talking about Israel.

I was not.  But the idea of minhag avot (or dictating) minhag hamakom is 
just wrong.  Particularly when every hypothesized origin for the minhag 
is based in the specific reality of a specific place.  And how odd is it 
that this minhag of all of them, which we don't even have any provenance 
or rationale for, is held so sacred?

Simchat Yom Tov is a chiyuv d'Orayta, but attempts to increase it are 
blocked because of an odd minhag that is sometimes treated more severely 
than actual halakhot.

Some of my daughter's friends came over last Shabbat and were hanging 
out.  We had some nosh for the kids, and one girl asked if we keep 
kitniyot, because she wanted to be sure she could eat in our house.  
Seriously?  And there's no sense in pointing out that she's only 
14-ish.  That's how she was taught by her parents.  And I know plenty of 
adults who do the same.  It's pathological.

On a side note, my sister in law's birthday is during Pesach most of the 
time.  She isn't remotely observant, so her husband took her out to a 
restaurant for a birthday dinner of lobster, her favorite. When it came, 
she asked the waiter if he could take it back and bring it without the 
side of greenbeans, because it was Passover.  I know she's no 
indication, since she knows next to nothing, but the lunacy of it all 
just gets to me.

There used to be peanut oil, kosher for Pesach.  I mean, Rav Moshe said 
that peanuts are absolutely, 100%, not kitniyot in any way, shape or 
form.  And shemen kitniyot is a whole other extension of an already iffy 
minhag.  But you can't find kosher l'pesach peanut oil any more.  Am I 
the only one here who sees something seriously wrong?  At a time when 
young people are straining at the bit already, we're adding specious 
prohibitions?

>
>> I wonder -- hashkafically speaking, now -- if Pesachdig blintzes,
>> pasta, and rolls do not defeat the entire meaning and spirit of
>> Pesach.
> Oh, yes, of *course* they defeat the entire meaning and spirit of
> Pesach! - To the same degree that baco bits and pareve coffee creamer
> defeat the entire meaning and spirit of general kashrus. :-)
Heh.  Whenever I hear someone suggesting that mock treyf and good food 
on Pesach is "against the spirit", what I hear the person saying is, 
"This wasn't how it was when I was growing up, so it seems wrong."

Lisa

On 4/25/2014 12:42 PM, Mandel, Seth wrote:
> That isn't what Micha was saying; he was referring to what the imperfect
> aspect meant.

> However, when used with the vav hahippukh, the form meant the linguistic
> "narrative" form: "and then he went," "and then he said," or "and so he
> went" etc. The "and" was an integral part of the meaning.
...

According to what you're saying, "Vayeilekh" would mean "and so he went",
while R' Micha translated it as "he was going". Hence my question.

Lisa

On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 02:06:28PM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
: But that isn't what's happening.  First of all, read the line before
: it.  The question is, how do you learn to pasken?  Then we see Rav
: Huna (not Rav, though Huna is omitted in the text of the Yerushalmi)
...

That's not 100% certain. The other possibility is the Hunah was a broken
interpolation. Depending on the acharon, the story is about R Chainana
(continuing from earlier), about Rav, about Rav Hunah, or about Rav
Hunah quoting Rav -- which is the girsa in print. Joys of Y-mi.

: sitting with Yitzchak bar Yonatan, and a woman asks the latter a
: shayla.  He tries to beg off in favor of Rav Huna, but Rav Huna
: tells him that he should answer the question he was asked.  This is
: clearly an illustration of how you learn to pasken such shaylas...

I would think it's clear he is stating a rule: Man de'asi qomeikh hori.
See also the Penei Moshe ad loc, d"h "asa chada isa vesha'alton". And
his version in which R' Hunah is quoting Rav version requires it being
a rule anyway, since Rav wasn't there. He invokes "ein ledayan ela mah
she'einav ro'os" as the reason /why/ the nish'al is most authoritative,
regardless of what the eyes of a greater mumcheh might see.

http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14136&;pgnum=713 has the
tzuras hadaf (Vilna) so you can see the PM and check my understanding.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

PS: I have the need to giddily add, "read the line before"? I read ALL
the lines before... <yay me!> We didn't fill Citi Field for the siyum
hashas, but my family made up for it in enthusiasm!

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 10th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Gevurah: When does strict
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  judgment bring balance and harmony?

On 25/04/2014 3:28 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> And are you as bothered by someone who uses a heter isqa as defeating the
> whole meaning and spirit of the issurim against taking neshekh vetarbit?

I think that one depends on whether he uses heter iska to *replace* gemach,
or only in cases where he wouldn't have given a gemach anyway.  If he never
gives gemachs, always insisting on an iska instead, then I think that is a
problem.  But one who is as generous with gemach as he can afford, still has
money that he expects to generate an income for him, and which is therefore
simply not available for mitzvos.  Without heter iska, a yid would be unable
to benefit from that money, and would have to borrow from a nochri at interest.
The heter allows one to help a fellow yid not only with ones gemach money but
also with ones investment money.

I'm not sure how that chiluk could translate to Pesach.  It doesn't seem to
be applicable.

-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 01:45:51PM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
: According to what you're saying, "Vayeilekh" would mean "and so he went",
: while R' Micha translated it as "he was going". Hence my question.

I didn't so much hear a question as surprise, disomfort and thus doubt.
This is why I didn't reply.

I know your opinion of Gesenius, but it's the only explanation of the
idea I found on-line. Page 110, sec 40
http://books.google.com/books?id=6_lEAAAAYAAJ&;pg=PA110&lpg=PA110
raises the idea of the conjugation being aspect (perfect/imperfect)
rather than tense (past/future). And page 125
http://books.google.com/books?id=6_lEAAAAYAAJ&;pg=PA125&lpg=PA125
says everything I posted earlier (including my cut-n-paste).

(Of course, what I attributed to Divine Timelessness, and an intentional
desire not to pin the story to a tensed form, Gesenius disparagingly
refers to as poverty and ambiguity.)

I first encountered what I took to be the same explanation when talking
to an older traditional Yemenite gentleman who I doubt encountered the
idea in Gesenius, at least nowhere near directly. (I do not recall how
the conversation drifted from the huge esrogim his grandson was selling
to diqduq. But I do remember his dark purple samla with purple tzitzios.)

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 10th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Gevurah: When does strict
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  judgment bring balance and harmony?


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