Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 65

Mon, 14 Apr 2014

• 1. Re: Galut (elazar teitz)
• 2. Re: obsession with kitniyot (Lisa Liel)
• 3. Do the Yeshivas "Spoil" the Seder? (Prof. Levine)
• 4. What's the real reason for gezeras kitniyos (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: What's the real reason for gezeras kitniyos (Micha Berger)
• 6. obsession with kitniyot (Eli Turkel)
• 7. Re: obsession with kitniyot (Kenneth Miller)
• 8. Pessah, to roast or to boil? (Prof. Levine)
• 9. yishuv eretz yisrael (Eli Turkel)
• 10. Re: yishuv eretz yisrael (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Do the Yeshivas "Spoil" the Seder? (Ben Waxman)
• 12. Re: Do the Yeshivas "Spoil" the Seder? (Prof. Levine)
• 13. Re: Do the Yeshivas "Spoil" the Seder? (Ben Waxman)
• 14. Re: Do the Yeshivas "Spoil" the Seder? (Kenneth Miller)
• 15. Re: obsession with Kitniyot (Micha Berger)
• 16. Re: obsession with Kitniyot (Meir Shinnar)
• 17. L'shana Haba'a Birushalayim (cantorwolb...@cox.net)

<Just as "uvnei yerushalayim" was something like "vekayem yerushalayim",
and "hamachazir shechinaso letziyon" was something like "hamashreh
shechinaso
betziyon".>

     The nusach of R'tzei when the mikdash was standing had
"v'sirtze ha'avoda bidvir beisecha" instead of "v'hasheiv," and its
conclusion was "sheos'cha l'vad'cha b'yira na'avod."  See Rashi, Yoma 68b.

EMT
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On 4/13/2014 5:07 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 13, 2014 at 04:50:08PM -0400, Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer wrote:
> :> But more than that, and I think this is a very important point
> :> that too many people disregard -- I think that kitniyot and
> :> similar things are responsible to a large degree for kids going
> :> OTD.
>
> : I think Lisa's right. These are the issues that my otherwise
> : apathetic students frequently raise.
>
> Then we're doing it wrong.
>
<snip>
> There is a lot of power to creating a communal feeling and communal
> loyalty. If we relayed our own variant of the theme of Yahadus that
> these unique practices were associated with, some notion of a qehillah
> and its vision to feel attached to, they would bind rather than alienate.
>
Dressing differently is a far cry from being deprived of foods your next 
door neighbor is permitted to eat.  Say what you want, but you will 
/never/ make that not feel alienating to children. Rationalization is 
strictly an adult vice.  If we care about keeping our kids frum, we 
won't make the mistake of thinking that they will accept our 
rationalizations.

Lisa

At 06:36 PM 4/13/2014, Rafi Goldmeier wrote:

>what's the alternative? not educate our children and keep them ignorant
>so one night a year we can teach them l'mehadrin?

The alternative is not to "stuff" the children with all sorts of 
information about Pesach,  certainly not the younger ones.  Did you 
read what Rav Schwab wrote?

The father is supposed to teach the children about Pesach and it 
central role in Yahadus. When the kids come home with pages and pages 
of stuff that they want to read,  this does not happen.

I do not know what you mean about teaching them "l'mehadrin."  I 
suggest you read Rav Schwab's 3 shiurim about the Haggadah.  They 
explain what Pesach night is all about,  and it is not the same as 
the stuff the kids bring home and can't wait to say.

I know that R. A Miller also told his children when they were young 
and then his grandchildren to "Save that for later." and then 
explained the real significance of this special night.

YL
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This is almost pure speculation, but it seems very plausible to me.
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/why-sephardim-eat-kitniyot-but-as
hkenazim-dont/

-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 12:25:03PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
: This is almost pure speculation, but it seems very plausible to me.
: http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/why-sephardim-eat-kitniyot-bu
: t-ashkenazim-dont/

A bit of speculation that captured my imagination.... Xian Europe
in the Dark Ages had a shortage of mills that could produce flour
for bread. The diet in these countries become porridge based. Which
would be a source of confusion between beans and grains that wouldn't
be as common.

Or it could be historical accident: Maybe in one community there was
a huge foul up and people ended up eating chameitz on Pesach. That
community happened to be in Ashk, so it became a real fear. No similar
incident spawned a parallel fear in Seph, Edot haMizrach or Yemen,
so they never developed such minhagim.

:-)|,|ii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             What we do for ourselves dies with us.
mi...@aishdas.org        What we do for others and the world,
http://www.aishdas.org   remains and is immortal.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Albert Pine

<<I've noted that too- anyone want to hazard a guess why this is such a big
thing for them? If I had to pick one minhag to abolish, it certainly
wouldn't be this one.>>

It is harder in Israel. One sees all sorts of kitniyot products with good
hechsherim.
The sefardi rabbi down the street eats rice.
Many hotels and restuarnts with good hechsherim serve kiniyot
(though the trend in hotels today is to go non-gebrochs)

-- 
Eli Turkel
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I too have been wondering why so many people seem to being attacking
kitniyos as an unusually offensive minhag, I think R"n Lisa Liel for her
clear explanation of a point of view that I was unaware of.

Then she asked:

> Can you think of anything else that deprives one group of Jews
> of something that would make the chag much more enjoyable, while
> their fellow Jews who could live across the street get to have
> it? I can't. And you ask why we're obsessed with getting rid of
> this burdensome and odious minhag?

Gebrokts.

Can anyone from the Chassidishe communities offer any anecdotal evidence
about opposition to this minhag? From what I see, the non-gebroks products
available at the store seems to be increasing each year. Is my matza brei
among the factors leading to off-the-derech chassidshe kids? This is NOT a
sarcasm, but a genuine question which can help us analyze RLL's claim.

Personally, I think R' Micha Berger answered it well: We're not giving our
kids enough pride in their family minhagim. My guess is that there's enough
pride among the chassidim to prevent gebroks from being an issue, and
rather what drives the OTD kids might be certain other extremes unrelated
to minhagim.

Here's another quick example and then I gotta get back to Erev Pesach:
Pronunciation of Hebrew. I wonder if the Ashkenazim who are dumping
kitniyos might be the ones who are running to adopt Israeli pronuinciation
even when davening. There is an emotion there that I just can't relate to,
of thinking that the Israeli way is superior. Okay, 'nuff aid. Discuss.
Good Yom Tov!

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
Odd Carb-Hormone Trick
1 EASY tip to increase fat-burning, lower blood sugar & decrease fat storage
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 From http://tinyurl.com/p7zhxwp



To believe that secular culture will provide the 
answers to Israel?s problems is a fatal mistake.

Boiling is an act that assimilates, while roasting separates.

When boiling, we draw several other ingredients 
into the object we are boiling. These ingredients 
assimilate with the object, which absorbs the 
added components and even adapts itself to them. 
When absorbing the other ingredients, it also 
expands, becomes soft and begins to disintegrate.

Roasting, however, does the reverse: its main 
function is to expel. Not only does it remove all 
the blood, but it also separates all ingredients 
that are not essential to the meat. As such, it 
shrinks the meat and makes it tough and impenetrable.

This, explains Maharal, is the symbol behind the 
Korban Pessah. At the time of the Exodus, when 
the people of Israel are to become a nation for 
the first time, it is not yet possible to allow 
any (spiritual) absorption from outside.

No outer influences that could compromise its 
essential spiritual nature may be permitted. The 
formation of the nation must involve both a 
courageous stand against the world in which it 
endured a 210-year exile, and a rejection of its culture.

<Snip>

Careful study of the famous work Hovot Halevavot 
(?Duties of the Heart?) by Rabbi Bachya ben Yosef 
ibn Paquda, written in the 11th century, proves 
beyond doubt that it was influenced by non-Jewish 
ideas. Anybody who has studied Islamic mystical 
concepts will recognize that the author was 
deeply influenced by these thoughts.

When Rabbi Menachem Mendel of Satanov wrote his 
famous book on character improvement, Heshbon 
Hanefesh (?Taking Stock of the Soul?), it was 
praised by the greatest rabbinical luminaries of 
the time. It is, however, certain that the book 
was based on the works of Benjamin Franklin, the 
famous 18th-century gentile inventor, statesman 
and author. In his books, he suggested the daily 
cultivation of 13 virtues ? and it is clear that 
these found their way into Heshbon Hanefesh.

When Rabbi E.E. Dessler, author of the classic 
Michtav MeEliyahu, was told that some of his 
observations were similar to those in Dale 
Carnegie?s How to Win Friends and Influence 
People, he responded, ?They are not similar; they are taken from there.?

See the above URL for more. YL

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<<Or to rephrase that as a question: When r"l there was a big statue
of Zeus in the heikhal, in the years before the Maccabeean revolt
(I believe we both agree that most consider that period at least
Galus Yavan) were the Jews in EY fulfilling the mitzvah or not? >>

You would exclude most of the first Temple period from yishuv eretz yisrael
?
Avnei Nezer has a teshuva that basically says yishuv eretz yisrael is
physically
building the land and deveoping the economy.  This is a time Turkey was in
charge.

Dont see any connection between yishiv eretz yisrael and who is in charge
and
what sins are committed by those in charge.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 10:35:21AM +0300, Eli Turkel wrote:
:> <<Or to rephrase that as a question: When r"l there was a big statue
:> of Zeus in the heikhal, in the years before the Maccabeean revolt
:> (I believe we both agree that most consider that period at least
:> Galus Yavan) were the Jews in EY fulfilling the mitzvah or not?
: 
: You would exclude most of the first Temple period from yishuv eretz yisrael
: ?

Lehefech! I was trying to question Lisa's assertion that yishuv EY is
an asei haba mikhlal lav, and her misspeach (which she since retracted)
that the lav is the chillul hasheim of galus. So I picked a period that
both Lisa and I called Galus Yavan, and asked about those settling
EY during that period. And she agreed, she mean mikhlal lav of the
chilul hasheim of golah.

Bayis Rishon, despite the sinning, wasn't galus. Prophecy and nissim
geluyim can't coexist with galus. And obviously no one was in the golah
until Ashur's conquest of Eiver haYardein.

:-)|,|ii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "As long as the candle is still burning,
mi...@aishdas.org        it is still possible to accomplish and to
http://www.aishdas.org   mend."
Fax: (270) 514-1507          - Anonymous shoemaker to R' Yisrael Salanter

While I agree that schools (and gan; my daughter has already announced 
that she won't be doing some of our minhagim because "the ganennet did 
it differently") the rabbi's solution of everyone sitting quietly while 
abba reads a text isn't the solution.

Ben

On 4/13/2014 9:56 PM, Rafi and Shifra Goldmeier wrote:
> It seems that Rav Shimon Schwab,  ZT"L,  felt the same way.  See 
> http://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/pesach/children_seder.pdf This is 
> from Rav Schwab on Prayer, 

At 01:20 AM 4/14/2014, Ben Waxman wrote:
>While I agree that schools (and gan; my daughter has already 
>announced that she won't be doing some of our minhagim because "the 
>ganennet did it differently") the rabbi's solution of everyone 
>sitting quietly while abba reads a text isn't the solution.

I do not think that Rav Schwab was advocating that the father "give a 
lecture and all listen passively."   I am sure that he was in favor 
of discussion by all present about the central concepts of Yahadus 
that the Seder is to focus on.  All should actively participate.

I have found that it is best if one goes around the table and 
different people read different parts of the Hagadah.

If my child announced what your daughter has announced,  I would be 
in contact with the teacher and point out that there are different 
minhagim and that this is what she should be teaching.  In 
particular,  what your daughter has announced smacks of disrespect 
for her family's minhagim,  and this is something that the teacher 
should not be fostering.

YL
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In my ideal world I would have the children bring in foods which they 
use in their families, or have them demonstrate different minhagim 
(instead of uniform one done today).

Ben

On 4/14/2014 11:27 AM, Prof. Levine wrote:
> At 06:09 AM 4/14/2014, Ben Waxman wrote:
>> To get this stuff changed, I'd have to go to the Minister of 
>> Education. All the schools do it. It is a problem.
>>
>> Ben
>

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R' Rafi Goldmeier asked:

> what's the alternative? not educate our children and keep them
> ignorant so one night a year we can teach them l'mehadrin?

No one is suggesting to keep them ignornant.Of course they should be taught
the relevant halachos, and a few nice stories as well, similar to how they
are taught about Sukkos and Shavuos. The point of the complaint is that
this is overdone for the Seder, to the point of "yatzah s'charo b'hefsedo."

As Rav Schwab wrote, in the article posted by RYLevine:

> I must point out that the present-day practice in which all the
> children read from their prepared sheets which they received
> in school is not exactly in accordance with the mitzvah of
> "and you shall tell to your children, etc." (Shemos 13:8)
> The children have started a new mitzvah of "you shall teach
> your father and mother, ..."
>
> If one has the zechus to have children or grandchildren, it is
> a mitzvah for the father or grandfather to hand down to them the
> details of yetzias Mitzrayim. The saying of so-called "gute
> vertlach," good, short pieces of Torah, is very nice, but if
> these are not details of the narrative of yetzias Mitzrayim
> - or its meaning  and message - they are not a part of this
> mitzvah. On Seder night, the children are encouraged to ask
> any question relevant to yetzias Mitzrayim, and the father has
> a special ...

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
Odd Carb-Hormone Trick
1 EASY tip to increase fat-burning, lower blood sugar & decrease fat storage
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/534bbe651f8553e641238st01vuc

On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 09:53:20AM -0700, Meir Shinnar wrote:
: While generating communal loyalty - with all the external trappings,
: may be important, I am surprised that it is so high on the scale for
: someone who is a ba'al mussar...

I wouldn't dismiss minhag as "external trappings".

: I think kids at risk are attuned to what they see as hypocrisy and
: problematic scale of values - and emphasizing Kitniyot ( note - not
: talking about abolishing Kitniyot - just the emphasis..) feeds into this?

I think you and I are addressing different obsessions: I'm not justifying
an obsession with qitniyos. For that matter, if I could find someone who
would check items with corn syrup or corn oil, or mei / shemen qitniyos
opf real qitniyos for that matter, I would have no problem consuming
them. And I remember when most American O homes made a point of using
peanut oils.

Rather, I'm railing against those obsessed with getting rid of a millenium
old minhag just because of something little like the problem it addresses
is a non-issue today and we can't even pin down what significant problem
it was originally attempting to avoid.

My suggestion was, that the kids at risk who are bothered by minhagim
have the wrong attitude toward nostalgia, belonging to a community,
mimeticism, everythign that gives minhag religious power. And that the
solution is not jetisoning minhagim we can't make sense of.

We do that, mimeticism is gone, and core practices and values won't be
far behind.

As I said, we're talking about different things. The same kids who see
attention to minhag as hypocritical wonder about the father who spends
$108 on his esrog but forgets about the homeless guy on the corner the
day after Yom Kippur. Halakha itself becomes problematic when you turn
it into frumkeit.

:-)|,|ii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Friendship is like stone. A stone has no value,
mi...@aishdas.org        but by rubbing one stone against another,
http://www.aishdas.org   sparks of fire emerge. 
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  - Rav Mordechai of Lechovitz

RMB
>There is a lot of power to creating a communal feeling and communal

>loyalty. If we relayed our own variant of the theme of Yahadus that

>these unique practices were associated with, some notion of a qehillah

>and its vision to feel attached to, they would bind rather than alienate.


While generating communal loyalty - with all the external trappings, may be
important, I am surprised that it is so high on the scale for someone who
is a ba'al mussar - after all, frumkeit, against which you rightly rail -
is essentially due to group loyalty - with transformation of avodat Hashem
to being part of one's group...


In essence , focusing (and being machmir)on Kitniyot is for many in some
ways the height of frumkeit - in its negative sense - except for a few yech
idea segura.


I think kids at risk are attuned to what they see as hypocrisy and
problematic scale of values - and emphasizing Kitniyot ( note - not talking
about abolishing Kitniyot - just the emphasis..) feeds into this?


Meir Shinnar
?
Sent from Mailbox for iPad
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In speaking the above subject at our seder, in order for it to have
any significance, there should be a personal commitment to the
concept of love of Israel, its people and its land. Herein lies the
true secret of Jewish redemption. In the words of the saintly 
Rav Kook, ztl, The second Temple was destroyed because of
the sin of causeless hatred. The third Temple will be rebuilt 
because of causeless love.
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