Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 64

Sun, 13 Apr 2014

• 1. shiurim (Eli Turkel)
• 2. obsession with kitniyot (Eli Turkel)
• 3. Re: yishuv eretz yisrael (Lisa Liel)
• 4. Re: yishuv eretz yisrael (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Humor or Serious? (Arie Folger)
• 6. Re: Humor or Serious? (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: obsession with kitniyot (Ben Waxman)
• 8. The Halachic Acceptability of Soft Matzah (Prof. Levine)
• 9. Do the Yeshivas "Spoil" the Seder? (Prof. Levine)
• 10. Re: yishuv eretz yisrael (Lisa Liel)
• 11. Re: obsession with kitniyot (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 12. Re: obsession with kitniyot (Lisa Liel)
• 13. Yom Tov (cantorwolb...@cox.net)
• 14. Re: Do the Yeshivas "Spoil" the Seder? (Rafi and Shifra Goldmeier)
• 15. Re: obsession with kitniyot (Micha Berger)
• 16. Re: obsession with kitniyot (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)

I saw in the sefer of Rav Harari (Mikraei Kodesh) on Pesach
1) teshuva from Rav Avraham Shapira - then chief rabbi
He states that the Tzlach himslef brings that the Tosafot YomTovf who was
rabbi in Prague a little before the Noda BeYehuda that the shiur of Kezayit
was smaller.
RAS does not understand that is so how could the Tzlach claim that million
of Jews had not kept the mitzvah of matza (beshogeg). He combines that with
the tradition of Eastern Jewry based on the darham and especially minhag
Yerushalayim

2) A teshuva from Rav Chaim Kanevsky stating that CI felt that the ikat
halacha is like R Chaim Voloshin that hezayit is like a modern day olive
about 1/3 an egg. Therefore at least for maror one can eat only  17 cc and
also make a bracha and it is not considered a bracha levatala.
OTOH according to CI one need not be machmir on yom kippur like R Chaim
Voloshin.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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I note opposite trends with respect to kiniyot
One rabbi in my time gave a shabbat hagadol drasha on the obsession with
kiniyot. Among other things he said there is absolutely no problem with
canola oil. The rabbi of my shul agrees as well.
In general I find that it is becoming quite popular in Israel though the
american kashrut groups dont allow it.

OTOH I have seen more notes from some rabbis that if a sefardi cooks in a
pot kitniyot an ashemazi cannot use food cooked later in the pot without
any kitniyot without kashering the pot. Rav Avraham Yosef was very upset at
such a psak. He mentioned that when he grew up many famous rabbis came to
visit them on Pesach and all of them would eat the food served to them
(without kiniyot) even though it was cooked in their pots. In fact several
poskim say that even if kitniyot is cooked in the pot an ashkenazi only
needs to take out the kitniyot and eat the rest.
Nevertheless as I said some poskim are very machmir.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On 4/11/2014 6:10 AM, Eli Turkel wrote:
>>>: According to this one can keep the mitzva of yishuv ertez yisrael...

>> Assuming that there is such a mitzvah nowadays.  This is a machlokes 
>> of the Rambam and the Ramban.

> That itself is also a machloket. Many hold that Rambam agrees that it 
> applies today and left it out of the 613 mitzvot for technical reasons.

> Note that RMF considers it to be a mitzva kiyumit. Rav Avraham Shapira 
> disagreed with this psak and felt there is no such thing as a mitzva 
> kiyumit which is a choice.

It's an asei ha-ba miklal lav. Lo techallelu et shem kodshi, and
according to Yechezkel, us being in galut is mechallel Shemo.

Lisa

On Sun, Apr 13, 2014 at 01:01:56AM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
: It's an asei ha-ba miklal lav. Lo techallelu et shem kodshi, and
: according to Yechezkel, us being in galut is mechallel Shemo.

Us being in galus, or in the golah (i.e. chu"l)?

Because I am /still/ convinced (a subset sources already provided)
that one can fulfil yishuv EY and still be in galus.

Or to rephrase that as a question: When r"l there was a big statue
of Zeus in the heikhal, in the years before the Maccabeean revolt
(I believe we both agree that most consider that period at least
Galus Yavan) were the Jews in EY fulfilling the mitzvah or not?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

RSZ wrote:
> As for the rented freezer, I'm not sure I'm comfortable having you use
> it to store pork.  <SNIP> The truth is that I don't really understand why
we rent the space to him in the first
> place. I assume it's just leravcha demilsa.)

Actually, selling/renting the space, besides adding two qinyanim of agav
and chatzer for the chametz, it is also a requirement according to many
posqim, since the original hetter called for physically moving the chsmetz
into the nokhri's domain.
--
mit freundlichen Gr??en,
with kind regards,
Arie Folger

visit my blog at http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
sent from my mobile device
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On 13/04/2014 10:50 AM, Arie Folger wrote:
> RSZ wrote:

>> As for the rented freezer, I'm not sure I'm comfortable having you use
>> it to store pork.  <SNIP> The truth is that I don't really understand why we rent the space to him in the first
>> place. I assume it's just leravcha demilsa.)
>
> Actually, selling/renting the space, besides adding two qinyanim of
> agav and chatzer for the chametz, it is also a requirement according
> to many posqim, since the original hetter called for physically
> moving the chsmetz into the nokhri's domain.

What "heter"?  Why would you need a heter in the first place?  It's not your
chometz, so what difference does it make where it is?

-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

Not to mention the obsession of the other side to rid themselves of the 
minhag entirely.

On 4/13/2014 1:07 PM, Eli Turkel wrote:
> I note opposite trends with respect to kiniyot
> One rabbi in my time gave a shabbat hagadol drasha on the obsession 
> with kiniyot. Among other things he said there is absolutely no 
> problem with canola oil. The rabbi of my shul agrees as well.
> In general I find that it is becoming quite popular in Israel though 
> the american kashrut groups dont allow it.
>

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I have put an article with this title 
at 
http://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/pesach/RJJ-soft%20matzah%202014.p
df 
It was written by Rabbi Dr. Ari Z Zivotofsky and Dr. Ari 
Greenspan.  It appears in the latest issue of the RJJ journal, The 
Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society.  (Dr. Zivotofsky sent me 
this article and gave me permission to post it on my web site.)

Rabbi Dr. Zivotofsky wrote to me saying, "There is a second part that 
should be out in Hakirah in a few months."

YL
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I have often thought that the yeshivas and Bais Yaakovs "spoil" the 
Seder in that when the children come to the Seder they know 
everything.  From the gemara in Pesachim it seems that the children 
were not prepped in advance,  and one is to do things to get them to 
ask questions.  However,  today the children know "everything" and 
come armed with pages and pages of Divrei Torah.

It seems that Rav Shimon Schwab,  ZT"L,  felt the same way.  See 
http://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/pesach/children_seder.pdf  This 
is from Rav Schwab on Prayer,

YL

On 4/13/2014 7:58 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 13, 2014 at 01:01:56AM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
> : It's an asei ha-ba miklal lav. Lo techallelu et shem kodshi, and
> : according to Yechezkel, us being in galut is mechallel Shemo.
>
> Us being in galus, or in the golah (i.e. chu"l)?
Valid point.  The golah.  But I was talking about the requirement to 
live in Israel.


> Because I am /still/ convinced (a subset sources already provided)
> that one can fulfil yishuv EY and still be in galus.
Yes.

> Or to rephrase that as a question: When r"l there was a big statue
> of Zeus in the heikhal, in the years before the Maccabeean revolt
> (I believe we both agree that most consider that period at least
> Galus Yavan) were the Jews in EY fulfilling the mitzvah or not?

Yes, we were.  What it says in Yechezkel 36 is that our being among the 
nations; i.e., golah, is the cause of the chillul Hashem.

Lisa

R' BW:

Not to mention the obsession of the other side to rid themselves of the
minhag entirely.
---------------------- 

 

I've noted that too- anyone want to hazard a guess why this is such a big
thing for them? If I had to pick one minhag to abolish, it certainly
wouldn't be this one.

KT,

MYG

 

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On 4/13/2014 1:43 PM, Moshe Y. Gluck wrote:
>
> R? BW:
>
> Not to mention the obsession of the other side to rid themselves of 
> the minhag entirely.
> ----------------------
>
> I?ve noted that too- anyone want to hazard a guess why this is such a 
> big thing for them? If I had to pick one minhag to abolish, it 
> certainly wouldn?t be this one?
>

A number of things. On the simplest level, Pesach is difficult as it is. 
To have to refrain from things that we could be eating to make the chag 
more enjoyable seems wrong. It's like someone's trying to make it as 
hard as possible to be mesameach.

But more than that, and I think this is a very important point that too 
many people disregard -- I think that kitniyot and similar things are 
responsible to a large degree for kids going OTD.

I know that sounds like an outlandish claim, but I can tell you that 
some of the big arguments I've heard from Jews struggling with their 
frumkeit have included cases where what's permissible for some Jews is 
not permissible for others. With things like minyan and being shaliach 
tzibbur and leyning, we can point to the halakha. We can also point to 
the fact that these things only take place in shul. That the Jewish 
world doesn't center around shul, and that actually makes a difference 
for some people.

But kitniyot. And the different times for waiting between meat and milk. 
These things are an outrage to anyone being told they can't do something 
that their friend next door can do.

I mean, okay, so a community agrees to refrain from eating certain 
things. But everyone in that community is physically in the same place. 
There's no sense that you're being denied anything. But it's 2014, and 
we don't live in closed communities any more. I'm okay going to the 
grocery store and knowing that this I can have and that I can't. That's 
part of being an Am Kadosh. We're separate and we're different, and 
that's okay. But to see delicious food that some Jews can eat just 
because their great-great-grandparents were born in a different place 
than mine... that's outrageous. It's beyond frustrating. It feels like 
being punished for my family's history. Never mind that my paternal line 
came to Belarus from Spain in the first place. Never mind that my 
great-grandfather who came to the US wasn't frum at all, so that binding 
me with the minhagim of the shtetl he came from is... well, twisted is 
the word that first comes to mind, but let's just say unjust and unfair.

Can you think of anything else that deprives one group of Jews of 
something that would make the chag much more enjoyable, while their 
fellow Jews who could live across the street get to have it? I can't. 
And you ask why we're obsessed with getting rid of this burdensome and 
odious minhag?

Lisa

The Hebrew Yom Tov is post-Biblical in its present meaning.
It occurs only four times in Tanakh and has as its meaning the 
literal translation, good day.  In the Book of Esther it occurs 3 times: 
8:17; 9:19; 9:22 and once in the Book of First Samuel: 25:8.
It is certain that Esther did not employ the expression Yom Tov in a 
technical sense to indicate a legal holiday. Rather, it is designated
as a merry day, along the lines of joy and feast. However, in the
Greek version, it IS designated as a legal holiday. Whether or not
Purim is a Yom Tov in the legal sense, might also depend upon 
whether or not one is permitted to work. Meg. 5b has one authority
interpreting verse 9:19 in the sense that simcha prohibits aveilus,
mishteh prohibits fasting and Yom Tov prohibits working. So what is
really interesting is that there was at least one talmudic opinion which 
felt Purim is a legal holiday, akin to the regalim on which working is
prohibited. 
Wishing all a very good Yom Tov.

On 13-Apr-14 8:24 PM, Prof. Levine wrote:
> I have often thought that the yeshivas and Bais Yaakovs "spoil" the 
> Seder in that when the children come to the Seder they know 
> everything.  From the gemara in Pesachim it seems that the children 
> were not prepped in advance,  and one is to do things to get them to 
> ask questions....

> It seems that Rav Shimon Schwab,  ZT"L,  felt the same way.  See 
> http://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/pesach/children_seder.pdf This is 
> from Rav Schwab on Prayer,

what's the alternative? not educate our children and keep them ignorant 
so one night a year we can teach them l'mehadrin?

kol tuv
Rafi Goldmeier

**********
Goldmeier
goldmeier.fam...@gmail.com
http://lifeinisrael.blogspot.com
http://rabbirunningamarathon.blogspot.com

On Sun, Apr 13, 2014 at 04:50:08PM -0400, Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer wrote:
:> But more than that, and I think this is a very important point
:> that too many people disregard -- I think that kitniyot and
:> similar things are responsible to a large degree for kids going
:> OTD.

: I think Lisa's right. These are the issues that my otherwise
: apathetic students frequently raise.

Then we're doing it wrong.

Why do you think Lub makes such an issue over their large-bayis tefilin,
having their own style of striping on their talisos, the menoros with
straight arms (regardless of what the LR held WRT the menorah in the BHMQ,
it needn't be reflected in Chanukiyos)?

Why do chassidim in general wear uniforms, each eidah having its own
slight uniqueness?

Or why did the yeshiva world slide into their uniform?

There is a lot of power to creating a communal feeling and communal
loyalty. If we relayed our own variant of the theme of Yahadus that
these unique practices were associated with, some notion of a qehillah
and its vision to feel attached to, they would bind rather than alienate.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The fittingness of your matzos [for the seder]
mi...@aishdas.org        isn't complete with being careful in the laws
http://www.aishdas.org   of Passover. One must also be very careful in
Fax: (270) 514-1507      the laws of business.    - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On 04/13/2014 03:37 PM, Lisa Liel wrote:
> A number of things. On the simplest level, Pesach is difficult as it 
> is. ...                          It's like someone's trying to make it 
> as hard as possible to be mesameach.

> But more than that, and I think this is a very important point that 
> too many people disregard -- I think that kitniyot and similar things 
> are responsible to a large degree for kids going OTD.

I think Lisa's right. These are the issues that my otherwise apathetic 
students frequently raise.

KT, CKvS,
YGB



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