Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 63

Sat, 12 Apr 2014

• 1. yishuv eretz yisrael (Eli Turkel)
• 2. Humor or Serious? (Arie Folger)
• 3. What to use for Maror at the Pesach Seder (Prof. Levine)
• 4. Re: What to use for Maror at the Pesach Seder (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Humor or Serious? (Daniel M. Israel)
• 6. Re: May Orthodox Rabbis Permit Women to Don Tefillin? (Daniel M. Israel)
• 7. Re: Humor or Serious? (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 8. Re: Humor or Serious? (Zev Sero)
• 9. galut (Eli Turkel)
• 10. geula (Saul Mashbaum)
• 11. Re: galut (Zev Sero)
• 12. Re: Tools & Goals (Arie Folger)

> : According to this one can keep the mitzva of yishuv ertez yisrael while
> : being in galus.
>
> Yes.

Assuming that there is such a mitzvah nowadays.  This is a machlokes of the
Rambam and the Ramban.>>

That itself is also a machloket. Many hold that Rambam agrees that it
applies today and left it out of the 613 mitzvot for technical reasons.

Note that RMF considers it to be a mitzva kiyumit. Rav Avraham Shapira
disagreed with this psak and felt there is no such thing as a mitzva
kiyumit which is a choice.
ie one can choose whether ot not to wear a 4 cornered beged but once one
wears it one is required to put on tzizit

(one possible exception that I thought of is eating matza after the first
day(s) according to the Gra)

-- 
Eli Turkel
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The following knock knock joke was found during a biur chametz excavation,
and reflects my ideal view of how chametz ought to be sold.

KNOCK KNOCK!
? Who?s there?
? Fritz Schmidt, your rabbi?s neighbor who purchased your chametz yesterday
morning.
? Ah, what do you want?
? Oh, nothing major. I just want to pick up that bottle of islay whiskey
you sold me yesterday at a discount.
? (Astonished) That?s all?

[To read the end, click here:
http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/2014/04/02/when-we-sell-our-cha
metz-we-mean-it/
]
-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/

* When we Sell Our Chametz, We Mean It (humor)

* Are Freedom of Religion and Human Rights in Conflict?

* Warum gingen unsere Vorfahren ins ?gyptische Exil? (Audio-Schiur)

* Warum heilt G?tt nicht die Amputierte

* Culture, a Foundation for Torah?
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See http://thehalacha.com/wp-content/uploads/Vol10Issue4.pdf

On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 02:40:42PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
: See http://thehalacha.com/wp-content/uploads/Vol10Issue4.pdf

One could try to find wild lettuce.

Alternatively, dandelion (milkweed) leaves are closer to uncultivated
lettuce (from the root lact = milk, after the color of its sap) than
romaine is. BTW, here is what wild lettuce looks like
http://safetylex.typepad.com/photos/rock_city_trees_plants/wild-le
ttuce.html
Very much the huge dandelion, no?

Both are in tribe Cichorieae, as is chicory, for that matter. But given
the visual similarity, I would think that dandelion would qualify as
chasah even though the genus is Taraxacum rather than Lactuca. After
all, we tend to group things visually rather than by formal taxonomy.

That said, I have romaine and endive, like normal people. Then I have
horseradish, for nostalgia. Separately though, so that it doesn't hide
the taste of the lettuce.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I long to accomplish a great and noble task,
mi...@aishdas.org        but it is my chief duty to accomplish small
http://www.aishdas.org   tasks as if they were great and noble.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                              - Helen Keller

 

On 2014-04-11 05:06, Arie Folger wrote: 

> -- Oh, nothing major. I just want to pick up that bottle of islay whiskey you sold me yesterday at a discount.

I had a long discussion with our Rabbi a few years ago on the question
of how the value of a partially used container of expensive whiskey
would be evaluated. TTBOM(limited)K, the mechiras chometz contract says
nothing about a discount. There is a downpayment, but if the buyer
really collects, he would need to pay fair market value.

Now our Rabbi contended that fair market value for a half-full bottle of
single-malt scotch was minimal. I countered that while it might not be
worth half the cost of a new bottle, I could be significant. E.g. $30
for half a bottle of $80 whiskey.

I don't think we ever resolved the matter. But it is an important nafka
mina. If I sell cabinet full of whiskey with a replacement value of
$300, and the sale price is $200 with which I can go out and have the
fun of shopping for replacement bottles, I likely really mean that sale.
But if I only get $20, was that a real sale in my mind?

-- 
Daniel Israel
d...@cornell.edu
 
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On 2014-04-10 16:45, Chana Luntz wrote: 

> RYL wrote:
> 
>> Please see http://www.torahweb.org/torah/special/2014/rtwe_tefillin.html [1]
> 
> The problem with this analysis is that he sets up a straw man - ie picking
> and choosing amongst the rishonim such as the Rambam against the Rema, and
> then of course provides cogent arguments as to why the straw man's position
> is not valid.

Your analysis is fascinating, but I think it misses RMT's central point,
which is that to change something that has been the universal consensus
of poskim for several centuries takes broader shoulders than the average
high-school principle, musmach though he may be. Even if you establish
that that consensus is based on a mistake, I think RMT would argue it is
not so simple to change. And I would humbly add that that is a very
valid argument; precedent carries a lot of weight in psak. 

I read his halachic analysis as a secondary point. That said, and WADR,
I felt that the style of his presentation, somewhere between teshuva and
polemic, could confuse the issue more than help. 

-- 
Daniel Israel
d...@cornell.edu
 

Links:
------
[1] http://www.torahweb.org/torah/special/2014/rtwe_tefillin.html
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R? DMI:
Now our Rabbi contended that fair market value for a half-full bottle of
single-malt scotch was minimal.  I countered that while it might not be
worth half the cost of a new bottle, I could be significant.  E.g. $30 for
half a bottle of $80 whiskey.

I don't think we ever resolved the matter.  But it is an important nafka
mina.  If I sell cabinet full of whiskey with a replacement value of $300,
and the sale price is $200 with which I can go out and have the fun of
shopping for replacement bottles, I likely really mean that sale.  But if I
only get $20, was that a real sale in my mind?
-------------------
 
One Rabbi I know used to have in his shtar that if there was a disagreement
about the price then it would go to the American Arbitration Association
for a decision.
 
KT,
MYG
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On 11/04/2014 7:06 AM, Arie Folger wrote:
>
> ? Oh, nothing major. I just want to pick up that bottle of islay
> whiskey you sold me yesterday at a discount.

What discount?  Who sells it at a discount?  The nusach shtar with which
I'm familiar says it's to be sold at the market price, to be determined by
an assessor who will be hired after Pesach.   So if he wants to take it,
aderaba, the seller is delighted!   Especially if the seller is a shopkeeper,
whose whole purpose in holding the stock is for sale; if he's found a real
customer who wants to keep the goods and will not want to sell them back
after Pesach, his yomtov will be so much happier!  But even a householder
would be happy to get rid of a half-used bottle, and get money with which
he can buy a fresh bottle if he chooses.

As for the rented freezer, I'm not sure I'm comfortable having you use it
to store pork.  I'm expecting it back in the same condition in which you
rented it, and if you keep pork in it I'll feel funny using it afterwards
for kosher meat.  You didn't mention anything about using it for such a
purpose when you rented it.    (Even if the renter says that in that case
he wants to void the lease, I don't really see a problem.  The truth is that
I don't really understand why we rent the space to him in the first place.
I assume it's just leravcha demilsa.)


-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

<<Agreed. But since we daven for ge'ulah even when in EY, it's important
to know what galus and ge'ulah are. Or else kavanah would be impossible.>>

and what is the kavannah for the upcoming musaf of yom tov
Because of our sins we have been exiled (galinu) from our land and removed
from our soil.

Sounds geographic to me.

Artscroll says that the diference between "artzeinu" and "admatenu" is
whther it refers to the nation being exiled from the entire country or
individuals from their small parcels.

BTW I dont know when musaf as a prayer was first instituted and certainly
our nusach. I am sure that during the Temple era and they didnt mention
that we cant go to bring sacrifices and G-d's hand stretched on the bet
hamikdash. So this prayer is obviously not from Anshei Knesset Hagedola but
relatively late after the destruction of the Temple and possibly after Bar
Kochva.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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The following passage is from a wonderful resource for Pesach, Haggadat Od
Yosef Chai. which is is made up of explanations of the haggadah of RYBS,
 compiled by R Ari Kahn.
It is in the middle of a long discussion and analysis of slavery. Among
much else, RYBS discusses the fact that a slave is not obligated in
time-bound commandments; he then goes on to discuss the existential
implications of time-consciousness, in the course of which he says the
following:.

>>>
The Rambam inserted in his Hagadah that we begin Magid with the statements
that our forefathers departed Egypt in a hurry. Why is this aspect of
haste, Chipazon, so important that according to the Rambam it became the
focal point of the evening? Because Chipazon means time consciousness. It
is the excitement of hurrying, of trying to catch up, because I miss time,
and I want to make sure that I am in a position to act when the opportunity
next presents itself. Chipazon is the attempt to cover distance, to move
forward quickly. This is the manifestation of the concept of living time.
That is why the Rambam includes the statement at the start of Magid that
regarding the haste of our forefathers  when they left Egypt 2 thousand
years ago, for it was then that we regained the concept of time, and we
became free.

>>>

The whole haggadah can be found at

http://arikahn.blogspot.co.il/2013/03/blog-post_8.html

The following is the editor's brief introduction:

Haggadah based on the Teachings of Harav Yosef Dov Soloveitchik Zatza"l
Collected and semi-edited by Rabbi Ari Kahn
This is an unfinished work in progress, much of the material was collected
from other students of the Rov, or from tapes of *shiurim*.  Perhaps one
day this work will be completed, in interim I am allowing limited access so
people can learn the Torah of Morenu Harav Zatza"l.
If you have any comments or observations ? please contact me
Adk1...@gmail.com
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On 12/04/2014 2:08 PM, Eli Turkel wrote:
>
> BTW I dont know when musaf as a prayer was first instituted and
> certainly our nusach. I am sure that during the Temple era and they
> didnt mention that we cant go to bring sacrifices and G-d's hand
> stretched on the bet hamikdash. So this prayer is obviously not from
> Anshei Knesset Hagedola but relatively late after the destruction of
> the Temple and possibly after Bar Kochva.

Presumably before the churban this bracha said something along the lines of
"please accept the korban that is being brought today in the BHMK".

Just as "uvnei yerushalayim" was something like "vekayem yerushalayim",
and "hamachazir shechinaso letziyon" was something like "hamashreh shechinaso
betziyon".

-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 10:34 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> My latest post on Torah Musings, the e-Zine that evolved out of RGStudent's
> blog.  http://torahmusings.com/2014/01/tools-and-goals

> It is my attempt to start a conversation that I believe it is CRITICAL
> for the observant community to have. The key difference, I believe, between
> this and numerous other articles of this ilk is that I shift from
> "consciousness raising" about an issue to suggesting concrete ideas
> about solutions. I am hoping we can start talking about solving what
> RSWolbe might have called the frumkeit problem.
...

Hi,

So I never had gotten around reading and commenting on your essay, until
today. It is very excellent. I didn't have much to add, except for a
thought I used to introduce your essay when posting it to my FB timeline.

Some things may be old (in internet time) but not stale. Here is
an excellent essay by Rabbi Micha Berger about how to achieve a more
spiritual, more inspired and more holy society engaged in the world. As a
remarkeable aside, I want to stress the difference between how he deals
with certain dialectics, like transcedence vs. immanence, and what I
have found in some discussions following the Farber brouhaha. In short,
while we are each different and feel attracted by another position on
the continuum between those dialectical doublets (Rabbi Berger mentions a
bunch of them in his essay), that does not mean that Truth lays with one
extreme more than with the other. Rather, both are somehow true, and we
may and should draw from both, being conscious that what's appropriate
for me isn't necessarily what is best for the next fellow.

While other authors have confused their preference for truth, Rabbi Berger
offers a very different way to see those preferences, in sync with Jewish
traditional outlook and tolerance for many Orthodox movements.
http://torahmusings.com/2014/01/tools-and-goals

-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* When we Sell Our Chametz, We Mean It (humor)
* Are Freedom of Religion and Human Rights in Conflict?
* Warum gingen unsere Vorfahren ins gyptische Exil? (Audio-Schiur)
* Warum heilt G"tt nicht die Amputierte
* Culture, a Foundation for Torah?


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