Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 61

Thu, 10 Apr 2014

• 1. Re: history and chazal (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Rav Elya Lopian: tefillin and radio (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: Rav Elya Lopian: tefillin and radio (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Luach for Pesach by Rabbi Geller (Ben Waxman)
• 5. KeZayit (Shoshana L. Boublil)
• 6. Re: KeZayit (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: KeZayit (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: KeZayit (Eitan Levy)
• 9. Re: KeZayit (Eitan Levy)
• 10. Re: KeZayit (Shoshana L. Boublil)
• 11. shiurim (Eli Turkel)
• 12. medicines on Pesach (Eli Turkel)
• 13. Re: medicines on Pesach (Micha Berger)
• 14. Galus and Ge'ulah, EY and Galus (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: Galus and Ge'ulah, EY and Galus (Zev Sero)
• 16. Re: KeZayit (Zev Sero)

On Thu, Apr 03, 2014 at 11:01:27AM +0300, Eli Turkel wrote:
: The same would apply to halachot based on facts that contradict modern
: science. While some argue for "nishtane hateva" this is hard to take
: seriously in many cases (though it is reasonable in some cases). No
: reasonable scientist would accept that the anatomy of the human has changed
: over 2000 years...

Or that astronomy did. Or that two millenia ago, abiogenesis was common.
Not every difference could be attributed to breeding, nutrition, or
quality of medical care.

Which is why I find R' Avraham ben haRambam's transltion "scientfic
theory changed" so compelling. OTOH, Tosafos MQ 11a offers chazal
utilized a theory that was wrong, or nishtanu hativ'im -- so they
can't say the two are identical.

:                  R. Avraham argues simply along the lines of R. Hutner that
: the objective facts are meaningless but what counts is how chazal derived
: laws from them (he then analyzes this according to Kant)

Given how much this would buttress my phenomenology approach to halakhah
(or perhaps even allow me to make a barukh shekivanti), I would LOVE a
citation for RYH, or a print version of RMA's thought.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I always give much away,
mi...@aishdas.org        and so gather happiness instead of pleasure.
http://www.aishdas.org           -  Rachel Levin Varnhagen
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On 9/04/2014 5:26 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> My counterargument was not that such causality does NOT exist, but that is
> conforms to -- indeed it is -- sekhar va'onesh and hatavah. Much the way
> "teva" can be taken as shorthand for "patterns in Hashem's actions". (And
> aren't both mediated by mal'akhim?)
>
> And I brought a list of baalei mesorah who give causal explanations to
> sekhar va'onesh. I also argues that framing SvO in terms of a system
> of causality He set up during maaseh bereishis or in terms of Hashem
> responding to each action is really one of modeling an incomprehensible
> theological truth to human scale.

See Malbim at the end of Vo'eschanon (IIRC), who posits three different kinds
of sechar mitzvah: 1) the natural consequences of the mitzvah, 2) additional
sechar for having dong Hashem's will, to be enjoyed in this world, 3) another
set of sechar in the next world.

-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

On Wed, Apr 09, 2014 at 05:37:07PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
: See Malbim at the end of Vo'eschanon (IIRC), who posits three different kinds
: of sechar mitzvah: 1) the natural consequences of the mitzvah, 2) additional
: sechar for having dong Hashem's will, to be enjoyed in this world, 3) another
: set of sechar in the next world.

All of which can be phrased causally:

1- The effects Hashem wanted you to produce, which is why He commanded
this particular mitzvah.

2- The effects of pure ana avda deQBH, regardless of the specific maaseh

3- The effects that don't reach back to olam hazeh, but the soul will
experience them in olam haba.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Despair is the worst of ailments. No worries
mi...@aishdas.org        are justified except: "Why am I so worried?"
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Here is a guide that Chabad put out for the chag (not the seder itself). 
It contains lot of info on Chabad customs as well.

http://bit.ly/1ksDCMT

Ben

On 4/9/2014 6:41 PM, Prof. Levine wrote:
> See 
> http://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/pesach/luach_5774_%2
> 0pesach_geller.pdf
>
> This is geared to Brooklyn, NY,  but does contain information that is 
> useful to those who live in other places as well.

I was learning the issue of KeZayit (volume) when I realized the following:

Most psika in Israel uses the value of 27 cc as the size of a KeZayit.
Rav Haim of Vollozhin uses 3 cc as the size of a kezayit.

The size of a Kezayit is relevant for 2 major halachot of Pesach:

A. Bal YeiRa'eh and Val YiMatzeh.
B. The amount of matzah to eat at the Seder.

So, if you are machmir of setting KeZayit as 27 cc and that's what you eat
on the Seder night, you are actually meikil on Bal Yeira'eh as only
something that is at least 27 cc in volume would be considered Chametz.

B. If you are machmir on Bal Yei'ra'eh where Kezayit is 3 cc, then you are
meikil on how much matzah you have to eat at the Seder.

Any thoughts?

Shoshana L. Boublil

On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 11:43:36AM +0300, Shoshana L. Boublil wrote:
: Rav Haim of Vollozhin uses 3 cc as the size of a kezayit.

More like 16cc or so is implied by his shitah. 3cc is about 3 drops of
water (or from my experience, of Shuby's insulin), not a comtemporary
olive. Still much less than RCN's 27cc, which you said is still the
norm there. (RCN got his shitos from minhag Y-m in the beginning of the
20th cent. His theory [texualism] was to buttress practice [mimeticism],
much like the Arukh haShulchan's norm in pesaq.)

...
: The size of a Kezayit is relevant for 2 major halachot of Pesach:
: A. Bal YeiRa'eh and Val YiMatzeh.
: B. The amount of matzah to eat at the Seder.
: 
: So, if you are machmir of setting KeZayit as 27 cc and that's what you eat
: on the Seder night, you are actually meikil on Bal Yeira'eh...

I would think you would be machmir both ways, safeiq deOraisa.

A similar case came up in Y-mi Yomi, in the last mishnah in mishnah,
Niddah pereq 3. If a woman r"l had a neifel and doesn't know the gender,
or the baby was an androgynus or a tumtum, she observes the tum'ah of
birthing a girl, and she counts (tense change intentional) the days of
dam taharah as if it were a boy.

Tangent: But in the case of twins, a girl and a boy, the Y-mi says she
keeps the dinim of birthing a girl. This is deduced from the mishnah
saying something similar when giving birth to a girl and an androgynus or
tumtum. Unlike when the other twin is a boy, and the mother observes the
safeiq rules, when the other twin is a girl, it seems from the mishnah
that the gender doesn't matter WRT the mother's tum'ah.

Back to the point, if we can hold like conflicting sides of a safeiq
lekhumerah in one case, why not in your?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

PS: In case anyone is keeping track, yes that means I have only one
pereq left to finishing Y-mi. And since that pereq only has a few
lines of surviving gemara, it's one blatt.

-- 
Micha Berger             You want to know how to paint a perfect
mi...@aishdas.org        painting?  It's easy.
http://www.aishdas.org   Make yourself perfect and then just paint
Fax: (270) 514-1507      naturally.              -Robert Pirsig

On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 06:30:35AM -0400, Micha Berger wrote:
: On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 11:43:36AM +0300, Shoshana L. Boublil wrote:
: : Rav Haim of Vollozhin uses 3 cc as the size of a kezayit.
: 
: More like 16cc or so is implied by his shitah. 3cc is about 3 drops...

Wrong cc, nevermind. RnSB is saying it's the volume of 30cc as measured
on Shuby's insulin syringe. That makes sense.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Feeling grateful  to or appreciative of  someone
mi...@aishdas.org        or something in your life actually attracts more
http://www.aishdas.org   of the things that you appreciate and value into
Fax: (270) 514-1507      your life.         - Christiane Northrup, M.D.

On April 10, 2014 2:12:58 PM GMT+03:00, "Shoshana L. Boublil"
<toram...@bezeqint.net> wrote:
>Indeed, but isn't that supposed to be against the rules?!

We are often careful to try to include multiple opinions and end up
being stringent in multiple directions. What is generally considered
forbiddin is to hold leniencies in both directions.

On April 10, 2014 11:43:36 AM GMT+03:00, "Shoshana L. Boublil"
<toram...@bezeqint.net> wrote:
>Most psika in Israel uses the value of 27 cc as the size of a KeZayit.
>Rav Haim of Vollozhin uses 3 cc as the size of a kezayit.
...
>So, if you are machmir of setting KeZayit as 27 cc and that's what you
>eat >on the Seder night, you are actually meikil on Bal Yeira'eh...

I'm sure many are machmir in both directions... 

From: Eitan Levy [mailto:eitanhal...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 1:25 PM
> I'm sure many are machmir in both directions... 

Indeed, but isn't that supposed to be against the rules?!

According to Chazon Ish a tefach is 2.4 cm . According to Rav Chaim Naeh is
it 1.9-2.0 cm.
Both shitot have a problem in that the gemara that equates 40 sa-ah to 3
cubic amot doesnt fit our measurements. CI enlarges the egg while RCN
shoertens the tefach.

There were 2 lectures on this topic in the very recent Torah and Mada
conference in Jerusalem.
One lecturer noted that the gemara seems to talk about the overflow (ie for
a solid one can overfill a vessel without spilling). The gemara also states
that the overfill can be up to 50%.
Hence he interprets the gemara as 3 cubic amah is equal to 60 seah and not
40 saah.
This results in volume measurements even smaller than RCN but linear
measures
slightly larger than RCN.

Another talk was by Prof. Kislev. Rambam defines a tefach as equal to 7
barley width wise and 2 lengthwise. First he showed evidence from
archaeology that the barley found in ancient
sites was the same as today. Next he asked why the Rambam gives 2
definitions for the amah.
He answers that there are 2 types of barley one with 6 shoots in each
barley and one with two shoots. The ratio of width to length is different
in the two varieties. Hence Rambam is telling us to use the more common
6-turim barley.

He ended with a slide with a ruler showing that 7 lying widthwise and 2
lengthwise both give the same total of about 1.9 cm. Due to possible
variations he would assume 1.9-2.0 cm
as according to Rav Chaim Naeh

-- 
Eli Turkel
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From R David Brosky (Gush)

Recently, some major Kashrut organizations, such as the OU (
http://oukosher.org/index.php/passover/article/5708/) and the Chicago
Rabbinical Council (CRC) (
http://www.kashrut.com/Passover/CRC_Policy_on_Medicines.pdf) have rejected
the use of such lists and ruled that all pills that are swallowed may be
taken on Pesach.  Although pious individuals may wish to be stringent in
this matter, it seems that the proper communal ruling should be to permit
all medicines which come in tablet or capsule form.



In a similar vein, R. Shmuel Eliezer Shtern, a member of the Badatz Chug
Chatam Sofer, wrote:



Fear and reticence have penetrated the hearts of pious Jews, and they
carefully investigate the medicines that they intend on using during
Pesach, that their names appear on the ?redeeming list,? so that, God
forbid, they don?t encounter a stumbling block, as it has become clear to
them that this is akin to eating *chametz* on Pesach? As a result of this
corrupt outlook, many Jews are endangering their lives, as Jews who fear
the word of God and take special precautions regarding *chametz* question
why they should use [these medicines]? and they assume that it certainly
won?t harm them if they stop taking their medicines for the week of Pesach?
And the facts on the ground prove that many older, sick people who need
consistent medication suffer setbacks in their physical health?. And I know
many people who weeks after Pesach have still not returned to their former
health? And therefore I feel obligated to publicize? that those who take
medicines for health problems such as high blood pressure, diabetes,
illnesses related to the heart, kidney or other internal organs, and those
who suffer from psychological problems may take their medicines without any
fear, regardless of whether they appear on the list.  Furthermore, they
should not even switch to a similar medicine that appears on the list, as
the change may cause complications and medical problems that one may not
have anticipated? Those who act strictly are acting oddly (*min ha-matmihim*),
and will one day be accountable for their actions.  (*Madrikh Kashrut*, *Chug
Chatam Sofer*, 1993)

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 03:27:01PM +0300, Eli Turkel wrote:
: From R David Brosky (Gush)
: 
: Recently, some major Kashrut organizations, such as the OU (
....

Article is available as the seifa of
<http://vbm-torah.org/archive/chag74/pesach74part1.htm>.

Descriptive ashei peraqim and closings:

    - medicine and akhila shelo kederekh akhilasan

        R. Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Minchat Shlomo 1:17) disagrees [with
        the Noda biYhudah -mb]. He suggests that while swallowing food,
        even without chewing, may be considered ke-derekh akhilatan,
        swallowing a pill or capsule, which is not a food item, is not
        considered to be ke-derekh akhilatan and would therefore be
        permitted for a person who is sick. R. Auerbach concludes by
        questioning whether the definition of sick here is equivalent
        to the category of choleh she-ein bo sakanna found in the laws
        of Shabbat, which is generally defined as one who is sick with
        an illness that is not life threatening, or whether even one
        who is only slightly ill may take such medicine.

        Although it seems that most posekim agree with the view of
        R. Auerbach, this reasoning would only apply to someone who is
        ill, and certainly would not apply to someone suffering from a
        meichush be-alma (slight discomfort) or to vitamins.

    - medicine and nifsal mei'akhilas kelev
      This is where the warning RET quoted came from. Quoting from
      around  it:
        Recently, some major Kashrut organizations, such as the OU
        (http://oukosher.org/index.php/passover/article/5708/)
        and the Chicago Rabbinical Council (CRC)
        (http://www.kashrut.com/Passover/CRC_Policy_on_Medicines.pdf)
        have rejected the use of such lists and ruled that all pills
        that are swallowed may be taken on Pesach. Although pious
        individuals may wish to be stringent in this matter, it seems
        that the proper communal ruling should be to permit all medicines
        which come in tablet or capsule form.
        ...
        One may certainly keep such medicines in ones procession during
        Pesach. As we learned previously, mixtures containing chametz
        that are not fit for human consumption may be kept during Pesach.

    - cosmetics and toiletries, incuding toothpaste

        In summary, all varieties of blush, body soap, creams, eye shadow,
        eyeliner, face powder, foot powder, ink, lotions, mascara,
        nail polish, ointments, paint, shampoo, and stick deodorant are
        permitted for use on Pesach even if they may contain chametz,
        it is certainly nifsal mei-akhilat kelev. Many are accustomed
        not to use liquid deodorants, hairsprays, perfumes, colognes,
        and shaving lotions that contain denatured alcohol (which appears
        in the ingredients as alcohol, or SD [special denatured], or SDA
        [special denatured alcohol]). The use of lipsticks, mouthwashes,
        and toothpastes that are not under Pesach supervision is also
        subject to debate, and some refrain from using them as well.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The purely righteous do not complain about evil,
mi...@aishdas.org        but add justice, don't complain about heresy,
http://www.aishdas.org   but add faith, don't complain about ignorance,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      but add wisdom.     - R AY Kook, Arpelei Tohar

On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 02:27:17PM +0300, R Eli Turkel wrote on Areivim:
:> word exile. As I noted twice already, all of Galus Yavan occured while
:> the core minority of us were in Israel and had a Beis haMiqdash.

: As I noted the term galus yavan is extremely rare in chazal.

Once in Bereishis Rabba (Bereishis 2:4, citing Reish Laqish.) Then there
is also the discussion of four golios in Bamidbar Rabba (Naso 7:10),
where shib'ud Yavan is listed as one of the four. OT1H it isn't called
a galus, OTOH, it's discussed in a piece about golios.

Similarly Pesiqra Zutera (Leaq Tov, Bereishis, Lekh Lekha 15:10,12),
Otzar haMedrashim [Eisenstein], Medrash haShkeim (Par' Terumah #13)
onthe metals used in the mishkan "Malkhus Yavan" is one of the four
galiyos -- nechoshes.

And then this shows up in rishonim as a consequence. (Rashi on Tehillim
80:5-9, Baal haTurim on Bereishis 27:3, Tosafos Rid on AZ 2a.)

The Radaq appear to resist this conclusion on Bereishis 15:9, his wording
is nearly polemic against counting Yavan: "Even though Malkhus Yavan made
life difficult for them, they didn't exile them from their land. And
in any case they are included in the mashal..." He eparates the four
qorbanos of the beris bein habesarim from the four golios, so that the
eiz can be Yavan and yet not be a galus.

The Radaq still gets four goliyos, by counting Mitzrayim even though
it's before Daniel's nevu'ah.

: However, I guess all thos in Israel should keep 2 days of yom yov this
: coming Pesach. Riambam indicates that the 2 days depends on where the
: messengers reached.
: Ritva disagrees and says that Chazal wanted to make a distinction between
: EY and chutz la-aretz
: and so all places in EY keep one day (we pasken like the Rtiva)

: However, since thos living in Israel are also in galus perhaps they should
: also keep 2 days.

The Ritva is saying that it's about the difference between qedushas
ha'aretz and chu"l, not galus and ge'ulah. The whole point of my thesis
is that those are different topics.

Where this issue is actually do ask for ge'ulah, Jews in Israel do say
"Go'el Yisrael" in the baqashos of Shemoneh Esrei.

: Furthermore when Chazal also sorts of attempts to prevent people from
: leaving EY they were ignoring the fact that those living in EY are also in
: galus.

Again, qedushas EY or the tum'ah of the golah aren't the same thing as
one being ge'ulah and the opther being galus. Even if galus and golah
are conjugations of the same shoresh.

: Bottom line some people on this list make up their own definition of galus.

I'm sourcing mine. "Make up" is a little flippant for an idea with
some kind of basis.

: According to this one can keep the mitzva of yishuv ertez yisrael while
: being in galus.

Yes.

: Be that as it mat the important think according to chazal is whether one
: lives inside EY or outside whatever you want to call it.

Agreed. But since we daven for ge'ulah even when in EY, it's important
to know what galus and ge'ulah are. Or else kavanah would be impossible.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man can aspire to spiritual-moral greatness
mi...@aishdas.org        which is seldom fully achieved and easily lost
http://www.aishdas.org   again. Fulfillment lies not in a final goal,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      but in an eternal striving for perfection. -RSRH

On 10/04/2014 3:22 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> : According to this one can keep the mitzva of yishuv ertez yisrael while
> : being in galus.
>
> Yes.

Assuming that there is such a mitzvah nowadays.  This is a machlokes of the
Rambam and the Ramban.

-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

On 10/04/2014 6:52 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 06:30:35AM -0400, Micha Berger wrote:
> : On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 11:43:36AM +0300, Shoshana L. Boublil wrote:
> : : Rav Haim of Vollozhin uses 3 cc as the size of a kezayit.

> : More like 16cc or so is implied by his shitah. 3cc is about 3 drops...

> Wrong cc, nevermind. RnSB is saying it's the volume of 30cc as measured
> on Shuby's insulin syringe. That makes sense.

Now I'm confused.  Was 3 a typo?  And if you're worried about 30 v 27, why
not also worry about the much bigger shiurim of the Tzlach/CI?

If you're merely referring to the safek whether a kezayit is a half or a
third of an egg, then we certainly go lechumra for de'oraisas and lekula
for derabanans.  As RACN writes, this means 27 for the matza, but 18 for
the maror and korech.


On 10/04/2014 7:12 AM, Shoshana L. Boublil wrote:
> From: Eitan Levy [mailto:eitanhal...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 1:25 PM
>> I'm sure many are machmir in both directions...

> Indeed, but isn't that supposed to be against the rules?!

Not at all.  It usually *is* the rule.

-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name


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