Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 4

Thu, 09 Jan 2014

• 1. Re: Why NOT to say Parshas Ha'mon (Prof. Levine)
• 2. Shaliach Tzibbur stays at his seat (Ben Waxman)
• 3. Re: "Binfol oyivcha" does not apply to goyim (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: "Binfol oyivcha" does not apply to goyim (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Why NOT to say Parshas Ha'mon (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Why NOT to say Parshas Ha'mon (Micha Berger)
• 7. Areivim discussion of news stories scam (Robert Weiss)
• 8. "KIDDUSH" in SHUL: PROPER CONDUCT (Prof. Levine)
• 9. Re: Why NOT to say Parshas Ha'mon (Prof. Levine)
• 10. Re: "KIDDUSH" in SHUL: PROPER CONDUCT (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 11. Re: Why NOT to say Parshas Ha'mon (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: Why NOT to say Parshas Ha'mon (Prof. Levine)
• 13. Re: Why NOT to say Parshas Ha'mon (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: "Binfol oyivcha" does not apply to goyim (Lisa Liel)

At 09:59 PM 1/7/2014, Moshe Y. Gluck wrote:
>The blogger above makes a fundamental error and misquotes the Aruch
>HaShulchan; the Aruch HaShulchan begins with a question - why don't we say
>it? He says, I don't know, I am troubled, we need to be me'yasheiv this
>minhag! (I am paraphrasing, these are not his exact words, but they are
>clearly his intent, look it up.) And then he continues, as the blogger does,
>to say reasons why the minhag became - contra to the Tur and Shulchan Aruch
>- not to say Parshas HaMan as part of the daily prayer order.
>The Yerushalmi that the AhS quotes (from the Derishah) is also quotes by the
>Tashbatz, as per the Mechon Yerushalaim Tur; also per there, they must have
>had a different girsa in the Yerushalmi.
>I really think that the people who have been so active and vocal on social
>media today about not saying Parashas HaMan are doing so because they
>learned the Biur Hagra on the Shulchan Aruch that says to say it every day.
>The Gaon says that one of the reasons to say it is to remind us that if we
>spend all our time learning then Hashem will make sure that we have do not
>have to work to have Parnassah. QED.

The 9 Sivan 5768 issue of Hamodia Magazine 
featured an article about segulos.  (The Hamodia 
kindly gave me permission to post the article on 
my web site, and it is at 
http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/hamodia/segulos.pdf 
)  In part the article quotes  the Mezhbuzher 
Rav, Harav Avraham Yehoshua Heshel Bick. According to him

[Segulos ] are nothing more than bubbe maasos, eitzas yetzer hara that
give people a license to spend money way beyond their means and then ask
for a yeshuah. All these formulae ? saying Shir Hashirim forty times, Tehillim
HaChida, etc. ? are methods used by the yetzer hara to take from us the little
[spirituality] we have left.

Prayer, on the other hand, is not a segulah ; 
prayer is a way of communicating with the Ribbono
shel Olam. When we use segulos to get what we 
want, it?s as if we are stealing something from Him,
something that is not rightfully ours. It reminds 
me of today?s Chinese auctions at charitable events.
Whereas women used to give charity without 
ulterior motives, they have now replaced their mitzvos
with Chinese auctions.

Furthermore, the Yated carried two articles about 
this topic titled The Kishke Segulah - Part I and 
Part II.  With the permission of the Yated I have 
posted these articles at 
http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/yated/kishke_segula_1.html 
and http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/yated/kishke_segula_2.html

YL
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I happened upon a Eidut Hamizrach (possibly Bucharin) shul this week in 
which the shaliach tzibbur prayed the entire Shacharit tefilla remaining 
at his seat. He stood for parts where one should stand, sat during the 
sitting parts, but always remaining at his seat. This morning there was 
a different STZ who also remained at his seat.

Is this minhag noted anywhere?

Ben

Way, way back, many centuries ago...

On Tue, 9 May 2006 19:51:51, bac...@vms.huji.ac.il wrote:
>Apart from the gemara in Megilla 16a which EXPLICITLY limits
>"binfol oyivcha" to a fellow Jew [and actually insists that
>it isn't valid for an enemy of the Jews], there are many other
>sources that hold this position [Tashbetz's commentary Magen
>Avot; Pirkei d'rabbi Eliezer 49; Rav Ovadya Yosef in Yabia
>Omer V Orach Chayim 19).

And on Tue, 9 May 2006 18:11:00 GMT, Lisa Liel <l...@starways.net>
replied:
: And before we hear the same voices saying, "Yes, but that's not the
: only view in Chazal", I want to point out, yet again, that if there
: were diametrically opposed statements in Chazal on this issue, the
: conflict would have been addressed in the past.  Either by Chazal
: themselves, or by Rishonim, or at the very least by major Achronim.

: No one ever has.  No one.  Ever.

Of course then and in the iterations since, I noted that there is a
medrash and a long list of rishonim and achronim who do just that,
in discussion of the Half-Hallel on the end of Pesach.

So why am I reviving the topic again? Y-mi daf yomi. Sanhedrin 4:9,
43b, the end of the pereq. Speaking about the end of the mishnah, lest
the eidim called to testify in dinei nedashos ask, "Why should we be
bother?" and "Why should we be responsible for this one's blood?" To
the latter we answer that the pasuq says "ba'avod resha'im rinah".

So, the Y-mi ends its discussion:
    It says, "Vaya'avor harinah bamachaneh".

This is a quote of Melakhim I 22:36. The context is the war against Aram
in which Achav lost his life. The word that went through the camp was
for everyone to go home.

    What is "harina"?
    "Hareini"

    Similarly it says "and they went out before the army"

Divrei haYamim II 20:21. When Yehoshafat went to Midbar Teqoa, and called
out to Yehudah and Y-m to believe in Hashem and prosper. They are about
to face Amon, Moav and Har Seir in war. Yehoshafat then appoints to people
to go out before the army and sing, "Hodu Lashem, ki le'olam chasdo."

As the Penei Moshe on our gemara notes, the "ki tov" is missing from
this idiom.

    To teach you that even with the fall of reshaim (mapalas resha'im),
    there is no simchah before HaMaqom.

The lesson is taken from the death of the Amoni, Moavi and Edomim!!!
Even as they are called reshaim, Hashem isn't happy they died "hapalas
reshaim" rather than teshuvah "ba'avod resha'im".

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Our greatest fear is not that we're inadequate,
mi...@aishdas.org        Our greatest fear is that we're powerful
http://www.aishdas.org   beyond measure
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Anonymous

On Wed, Jan 08, 2014 at 04:06:19PM -0500, Micha Berger wrote:
: So why am I reviving the topic again? Y-mi daf yomi. Sanhedrin 4:9,
: 43b, the end of the pereq...

I found the parallel Bavli. Sanhedrin 39b. R' Yochanan explicitly
says the derashah is from the missing "ki tov" when celebrating the
military victory.

: The lesson is taken from the death of the Amoni, Moavi and Edomim!!!
: Even as they are called reshaim, Hashem isn't happy they died "hapalas
: reshaim" rather than teshuvah "ba'avod resha'im".

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Tue, Jan 07, 2014 at 09:59:35PM -0500, Moshe Y. Gluck wrote:
: I really think that the people who have been so active and vocal on social
: media today about not saying Parashas HaMan are doing so because they
: learned the Biur Hagra on the Shulchan Aruch that says to say it every day.

I don't. I think it's because we've seen how minhag after minhag
and I dare say halakhah after halakhah is turned into a mechanistic
means of getting what you want. Narcisistic religion. Magical
thinking. Lechishah. The pursuit of segulah threatens to overwhelm the
pursuit of Avodas Hashem. It creates a desire to push the line back.

In others, it creates a desire to make the opposite error, to dismiss
the minhag altogether despite the possibility of recovering a more
avodas H' perspective to it.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Time flies...
mi...@aishdas.org                    ... but you're the pilot.
http://www.aishdas.org                       - R' Zelig Pliskin
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Tue, Jan 07, 2014 at 09:59:35PM -0500, Moshe Y. Gluck wrote:
: I really think that the people who have been so active and vocal on social
: media today about not saying Parashas HaMan are doing so because they
: learned the Biur Hagra on the Shulchan Aruch that says to say it every day.

I don't. I think it's because we've seen how minhag after minhag
and I dare say halakhah after halakhah is turned into a mechanistic
means of getting what you want. Narcisistic religion. Magical
thinking. Lechishah. The pursuit of segulah threatens to overwhelm the
pursuit of Avodas Hashem. It creates a desire to push the line back.

In others, it creates a desire to make the opposite error, to dismiss
the minhag altogether despite the possibility of recovering a more
avodas H' perspective to it.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Time flies...
mi...@aishdas.org                    ... but you're the pilot.
http://www.aishdas.org                       - R' Zelig Pliskin
Fax: (270) 514-1507

> Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2014 14:01:13 -0500
> To: arei...@lists.aishdas.org
> Subject: [Areivim] Two more charged in Met Council scam

Rabosai-

I have been a lurker for some time and I am content to leave it at that
and just scan the goings on here.

However, I have been wondering and I will now ask, what is the halachic
justification to post negative news items about other Jews here such as
this one? Is there any toeles in doing so?

I am scratching my head here. I suppose if something was happening and
there was something to learn from it or to some precautions to take that
would maybe justify it.

But in the case of this story, as in others I have seen posted here
from time to time, there is no such justification. First of all at this
point the misconduct is alleged, repeat ALLEGED, and has not been proven.
Second, even if the allegations were true, all this took place some time
ago and does not affect most of us here. There is nothing for us to do
about it now anyway. How is this a permissible topic?

Regards
Robert Weiss

 From http://www.torah.org/advanced/weekly-halacha/5764/vayeira.html


By Rabbi Doniel Neustadt
A discussion of Halachic topics related to the Parsha of the week. 
For final rulings, consult your Rav.


KIDDUSH

Kiddush is recited over a cup(1) of wine or grape juice which holds a 
revi'is (3 fl. oz.). At least a cheekful (approximately 1.6 fl. oz.) 
must be drunk.(2)

There is no requirement for anybody but the person who makes Kiddush 
to taste the wine. As long as the listener intended to fulfill the 
mitzvah of Kiddush and heard every word of the blessing, he fulfills 
the mitzvah. It is, however, desirable (a mitzvah min ha-muvchar) to 
partake of the Kiddush cup.(3) For this reason, many people make 
certain to drink some wine when attending a kiddush in shul. Doing 
so, however, can lead to a problematic situation regarding the 
correct blessing for any other beverage which will be drunk at the 
kiddush. Let us explain:

<Snip>

KIDDUSH ON SCHNAPPS

It is a common practice to recite Kiddush Shabbos morning over a 
one-ounce cup of schnapps [or liqueur.(7)] Although many poskim(8) 
object, as Kiddush must be recited over a cup which holds at least a 
revi'is and at least a cheekful must be drunk, still there are 
poskim(9) who defend this minhag Yisrael.(10) They reason that 
schnapps is different from wine since it is normally consumed in much 
smaller quantities and is therefore subject to a different set of 
measurements.(11)

Those who rely on this leniency and recite Kiddush over schnapps, 
must also recite a borei nefashos over the schnapps, even though only 
a small amount was drunk. Although one does not recite a borei 
nefashos unless he drinks at least 3 fl. oz. of a beverage,(12) 
schnapps - according to this view - is an exception and requires a 
borei nefashos even on a much smaller amount.(13) When no wine or 
grape juice is available, there is a way of reciting Kiddush over 
schnapps which will satisfy the opinions of most poskim: Recite 
Kiddush on a revi'is of schnapps and drink a cheekful or a revi'is, 
but instead of swallowing it in one shot, sip it slowly, for a period 
of up to three or four minutes.(14) When even this is not possible, 
the next best option is to share the cheekful amount with others who 
are listening to the Kiddush.(15)

See the above URL for more.  YL
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At 06:28 PM 1/8/2014, Micha Berger wrote:
>In others, it creates a desire to make the opposite error, to dismiss
>the minhag altogether despite the possibility of recovering a more
>avodas H' perspective to it.

R. A. Miller would always dismiss all things like this with a wave of 
his hand.  I once asked him why,  and he replied,  "Our emuna is 
strained enough by what we are required to believe.  To add to this 
is not wise."

And he was correct,  because we see people turning Yahadus into a 
bunch of hocus pocus.   It does not lead to more Avodas HaShem in 
general.  It leads more often than not to a distortion of 
Yahadus.  Best not to include any of these sorts of things in one's 
practice of Judaism.

YL
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On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 11:34 AM, Prof. Levine <llev...@stevens.edu> wrote:

>  *By Rabbi Doniel Neustadt*
> When no wine or grape juice is available, there is a way of reciting
> Kiddush over schnapps which will satisfy the opinions of most poskim:
> Recite Kiddush on a revi'is of schnapps and drink a cheekful or a revi'is,
> but instead of swallowing it in one shot, sip it slowly, for a period of up
> to three or four minutes.(14)
>
> ------------------------------------

I'm not sure why he didn't say that you can also drink it all at once -
that would be the most l'chatchilah - and then, as more b'dieved to sip it
slowly.

KT,
MYG
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On Thu, Jan 09, 2014 at 12:33:45PM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote:
> At 06:28 PM 1/8/2014, Micha Berger wrote:
>> In others, it creates a desire to make the opposite error, to dismiss
>> the minhag altogether despite the possibility of recovering a more
>> avodas H' perspective to it.
...
> R. A. Miller would always dismiss all things like this with a wave of  
> his hand.  I once asked him why,  and he replied,  "Our emuna is  
> strained enough by what we are required to believe.  To add to this is 
> not wise."
>
> And he was correct,  because we see people turning Yahadus into a bunch 
> of hocus pocus...

He would dismiss the magical thinking. Not the original minhag with the
original avodas H' prespective!

In other words,
    IF people want to turn Tues of Parashas Beshalach into a date on their
       calendar because they know they'll have kavanah for a once-a-year
       event to remind themselves that their parnasah is no less from the
       RBSO than it was to get mon in the midbar,
    THEN how is it either
       a- straigning our emunah more than required, or
       b- hocus pocus?

(Tangent, off topic: "Hocus pocus" is a Protestant term, teasing the
Catholics for their idea of how the wine-and-wafer thing works. The
Latin service begins, "hoc est corpus", declaring the wafer to actually
be some guy's body.
(OTOH, "abracadabra" is likely slurred or Anglicized Aramaic for "I will
create according to the word -- ebra kedibra".)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It is our choices...that show what we truly are,
mi...@aishdas.org        far more than our abilities.
http://www.aishdas.org                           - J. K. Rowling
Fax: (270) 514-1507

At 01:43 PM 1/9/2014, Micha Berger wrote:
>He would dismiss the magical thinking. Not the original minhag with the
>original avodas H' prespective!
>
>In other words,
>     IF people want to turn Tues of Parashas Beshalach into a date on their
>        calendar because they know they'll have kavanah for a once-a-year
>        event to remind themselves that their parnasah is no less from the
>        RBSO than it was to get mon in the midbar,
>     THEN how is it either
>        a- straigning our emunah more than required, or
>        b- hocus pocus?

I knew R. Miller well for over 30 years.  I heard him say more than 
once,  "We are not mechuyav to believe everything that is written in 
a sefer,  even in a choshava sefer."  I am pretty sure he would 
dismiss what you write above also.

I once discussed with him R. Chaim Volozhin's  "proof" that the GRA 
knew Kabbala well which he writes about in his introduction to the 
GRA's perush on Saffra D'tzeniusa. He waved this away also.

Please listen to Rabbi Pruzansky's talk at

http://bcbm.org
/live/lecture.php?788206/Rabbi_Steven_Pruzansky/__Segulas_and_Superstitions
_The_Rise_of_Mysticism_in_Jewish_Life 

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On Thu, Jan 09, 2014 at 02:16:00PM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote:
>>     IF people want to turn Tues of Parashas Beshalach into a date on their
>>        calendar because they know they'll have kavanah for a once-a-year
>>        event to remind themselves that their parnasah is no less from the
>>        RBSO than it was to get mon in the midbar,
>>     THEN how is it either
>>        a- straigning our emunah more than required, or
>>        b- hocus pocus?

> I knew R. Miller well for over 30 years...
>                                     I am pretty sure he would dismiss 
> what you write above also.

You did not yet give any grounds for that certainty.

You said he didn't like "hocus pocus" or forcing people into believing
things beyond the necessary for Judaism. The idea of having a minhag to
say a special tefillah, or even to make a once-a-year occasion so as to
foster more kavanah when saying it, does not meet those criteria.

I find the idea of dismissing someone else's minhag because it was
subsequently turned into theurgy as wrong as the original turning it
into theurgy.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On 1/8/2014 3:06 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> Of course then and in the iterations since, I noted that there is a
> medrash and a long list of rishonim and achronim who do just that,
> in discussion of the Half-Hallel on the end of Pesach.

No, you didn't note any such thing, because none of them do. There are
not diametrically opposed statements on this issue in Chazal. You are
reading the issue of the Half-Hallel incorrectly, since your way requires
a major machloket in Chazal that Chazal were apparently unaware of.

Nor is your citation of the views of an Achron (the Pnei Moshe, who
lived in the 1700s) on the question a contradiction. We're all very
well aware that there are Achronim who share your view on this subject.

Lisa


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