Volume 31: Number 204
Thu, 12 Dec 2013
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Richie <cantorwolb...@cox.net>
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 08:20:45 -0500
Subject: [Avodah] Quote
R' Micha uses the following great
quote by Rav Yisrael Salanter (one of his many great quotes): The
fittingness of your matzos (for the Seder) isn't complete with being
careful in the laws of Passover. One must also be very careful in the laws
of business.
This reminds me of the famous anonymous quote: One should be just as concerned what comes out of his mouth as for what goes in.
Sent from my iPhone
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Message: 2
From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 13:13:22 -0500
Subject: [Avodah] Marc Shapiro on the question of obligation of belief
From http://tinyurl.com/l9ckm4s
You can read or download Dr. Marc B. Shapiro's article in the new
issue of Milin Havivin
<https://docs.google.com/viewe
r?a=v&;pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B9qDT_J6e1NHZjFiOTIzM
DUtNDg0Zi00NTY3LWJhYjItOGViZDBmMzMxNWQ2&hl=en_US>here.
The article is called "Is There An Obligation To Believe that the
Zohar Was Written By Rabbi Shimon ben Yochai?". While I thought the
question was settled years ago
(<http://onthemainline.blogspot.com/2007/01/r-zev-leff-quest
ion-for-is-person-who.html>see
here) and subsequently had to reconsider
(<http://onthemainline.blogspot.com/2010/01/dayanim-in-brown-s
uits-and-kabbalah.html>here)
you can read what Shapiro has to say in his interesting article. <Snip>
Once can also read some classic works on the question of the Zohar's
authenticity:
R. Elijah Del Medigo - Bechinas Ha-das <http://www.hebrewbooks.org/9403>here
Yaavetz - Mitpachas Sefarim <http://www.hebrewbooks.org/33319>here
R. Moshe Kunitz - Ben Yochai <http://www.hebrewbooks.org/5706>here
Shir Rapoport - Nachalas Yehuda <http://www.hebrewbooks.org/34147>here
R. Leone Modena - Ari Nohem <http://www.hebrewbooks.org/23812>here
Shadal - Vikuach al Chochmas ha-Zohar, etc.
<http://www.seforimonline.org/unsorted/%d7%95%d7%99%d7%9b%d7%95%d7%97%2
0%d7%a2%d7%9c%20%d7%97%d7%9b%d7%9e%d7%aa%20%d7%94%d7%a7%d7%91%d7%9c%d7%94.p
df>link
R. Elia Benamozegh - Ta'am Le-shad <http://www.hebrewbooks.org/22067>here
R. Eliyahu Nissim - Ana Kesil
<http://www.otzar.org/wotzar/Book.aspx?103643&;&lang=eng&lang=eng>here
R. Shlomo b"r Eliyahu Nissim - Aderes Eliyahu
<http://www.hebrewbooks.org/20223>here
R. Moshe Yisrael Hazzan - Shearis Ha-nachalah
<http://www.hebrewbooks.org/20471>here
R. David Luria - Kadmus Sefer Ha-zohar <http://www.hebrewbooks.org/34758>here
The above list is not meant to be exhaustive.
The entire issue of Milin Havivin 5 can be downloaded
<http://www.yctorah.org/content/blogsection/8/53/>here.
Yitzchok Levine
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Message: 3
From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 08:51:29 -0500
Subject: [Avodah] "Insights Into Halacha: Fasting On Friday?".
From http://tinyurl.com/m2jzere
An interesting calendrical anomaly is set to happen this week. The
appearance of which is quite sporadic and actually quite unique on
the Jewish Calendar. I am referring to the upcoming Fast of Asarah
B'Teves, which this year falls out on a Friday. Unique to this fast
is that it is the only one that we do actually observe as a fast on a
Friday[1]. Even Tisha B'Av, which commemorates the actual
destructions of our Batei HaMikdash, gets pushed off. Yet, this
Friday, for a fast best known for being the year's shortest (for
everyone in the Northern Hemisphere), all of Klal Yisrael will fast.
See the above URL for more. YL
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Message: 4
From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 09:17:20 -0500
Subject: [Avodah] Rav Asher Weiss' Talk About Kashrus Verification -
It turns out that I had saved this talk to my computer. I just
uploaded it and now one can listen this talk at
http://www.stevens.edu/golem/ll
evine/kashrus/Rav%20Weiss%20Tazria%205772%20English%20Kashrus%20Verificatio
n.mp3
I strongly suggest that people listen to this talk, because it
dispels what appear to me to be some people's misconceptions about
relying on certain things when it comes to kashrus.
YL
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Message: 5
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 17:34:24 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Rashbam and peshat
On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 05:22:57PM +0100, R Arie Folger replied to Zev:
: We are talking about two separate matters. You are talking about when Rashi
: deviates from peshat, and I am trying to define what Rashi considers to
: fall under the purview of peshat....
Ah, so I see where we're on different pages. I don't believe Rashi ever
deviates from giving what he calls peshat. I therefore disagree with
the description of Rashi you gave on Mon, Dec 09, 2013 at 03:51:12PM +0100:
: However, there is a school that understands peshat to be intimately linked
: to the literal text, to the disregard of all other sources of information.
: That matches Rashi, who, when he says he came to report peshuto shel miqra,
: tries to fit in a fair amount of midrash that most of us would not consider
: peshat. The reason Rashi can do this may be because while we find it
: incredible that Rivka was three when she met the servant of Avraham, there
: is nothing in the text to contradict that peshat.
Whereas I was saying that Rashi actually gave it as peshat, as is
everythinng in his qunterus. (Perhaps what I'm saying is what RMMS
already said before me.) I was assuming Rashi uses a FAR broader
definition of peshat than you attributed to him. That leshitas Rashi,
any Chazal that explains an unanswered textual issue is peshat. Derashah
only includes things that do not answer questions raised by trying to
just read the text.
Which is how I set up Rashi vs Rashbam as using two different meanings
of peshat. Rashi I was giving something similar to your #4 "whatever the
text could bear", but more like "whatever the text suggests it is bearing".
...
: Rashi incorporates them without second thoughts, not because they are
: peshat, but because in Rashi understanding of peshat, those interpretations
: do not violate peshat. How could that be? Because those are only non-peshat
: if you insist on using common sense and common experience as a source of
: what is a reasonable interpretation of the text. Many Roshonim insist on
: that, but Rashi doesn't.
And your "many rishonim" includes my understanding of the Rashbam.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger A sick person never rejects a healing procedure
mi...@aishdas.org as "unbefitting." Why, then, do we care what
http://www.aishdas.org other people think when dealing with spiritual
Fax: (270) 514-1507 matters? - Rav Yisrael Salanter
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Message: 6
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 17:51:54 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] definition of 'shabbosdik'
On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 10:22:53AM -0500, M Cohen wrote:
: What exactly is the definition of 'shabbosdik' activities?
Others mentioned excercise.
There are a number of things that are assur as uvda dekhol that aren't
excercise. It's a pretty diverse collection. The best I can come up with
is that they're activities that make the scene so commonplace, you could
forget for a few moments it's Shabbos. And then you could ask (if you
buy into my guess) whether that's because it's inherently problematic
to forget, or because falling into the weekday routine makes doing a
melakhah that much more likely.
Quoting RMTorczyner's list at http://www.webshas.org/shabbos/gezairos.htm :
Uvda DeChol - "Weekday" Types of Work - In General
Rabbinic Prohibition against performing "weekday work" on Shabbat:
Shabbat 137b-138a
Delivering food and other gifts on Yom Tov: Beitzah 14b [as
explained by Rambam in Peirush haMishnayot]
Delivering gifts with large groups of people: Beitzah 14b
"Weekday work" in preparing food
Setting up, and using, a strainer on Shabbat: Shabbat 137b-138a,
139b-140a
Scraping of the skin: Shabbat 147a, 147b
Preparing an oil-and-wine plaster: Shabbat 134a
In preparing food: Shabbat 140a
In methods of sponging up wine or oil: Shabbat 143b
In methods of collecting spilled fruit: Shabbat 143b
"Weekday Work" For a Mitzvah or Public Benefit
Financial Calculations for a Mitzvah: Shabbat 150a, Ketuvot 5a
Pledging Charity: Shabbat 150a, Ketuvot 5a
Public Gatherings for Public Needs: Shabbat 150a, Ketuvot 5a
Meeting in Theaters and Circuses for Public Needs: Shabbat 150a,
Ketuvot 5a
For Saving a Life: Shabbat 150a
For tending to the needs of a bride: Shabbat 150b, 151a
For tending to the needs of a corpse: Shabbat 150b, 151a
Preparing medication, to continue a pre-Shabbat cycle of
medication: Shabbat 140a
"Weekday work" for Business
Calculations which do not have practical ramifications: Shabbat
150a-b
Avoiding mention of actual sums: Shabbat 151a
Hiring workers, for work on another day: Shabbat 150a
Calculations of past wages, where some of the salary is/isn't
still owed: Shabbat 150b
Arranging apprenticeship & education on Shabbat: Shabbat 150a,
Ketuvot 5a
Speaking about weekday business: Shabbat 113a-b
Thinking about weekday business: Shabbat 113a-b
Waiting by the edge of the Shabbat Travel Border, to do something
outside of the Border after Shabbat: Shabbat 150a, 150b-151a
Differentiating, in the above line, between a purpose which
could or couldn't be done on Shabbat: Shabbat 150a, 150b-151a
R' Abba's Rule: Anything I could ask someone to do after Shabbat,
I can wait by the limit of Shabbat travel to do myself: Shabbat
150a, 150b-151a
Discussion where it is possible for the fulfillment of the purpose
under discussion to become permissible on Shabbat: Shabbat 150b
Other Issues in "Weekday work"
Not Marrying on Saturday Night, to prevent Meal-Planning on
Shabbat: Ketuvot 5a
Setting up Couples on Shabbat: Shabbat 150a, Ketuvot 5a
Waiting by the edge of the Shabbat Travel-Limit to bring an
animal in after Shabbat: Shabbat 151a
Scattering straw on a hazardous surface to enable people to
walk on it, in the manner one would employ for scattering such
materials during the week: Eruvin 104a
I know the Rashba also includes Beitza 2:8's case of grinding a pepper
mill. Even though crushing with the side of the knife would be mutar.
From which the Rivash concludes (SA 321:10, Bei'ur Halakhah 12 "Midei")
that one cannot do techinah with a keli made for that function.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Every second is a totally new world,
mi...@aishdas.org and no moment is like any other.
http://www.aishdas.org - Rabbi Chaim Vital
Fax: (270) 514-1507
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Message: 7
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 18:10:09 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] The Gym, the Carpool, and Tzniyus
On Thu, Dec 05, 2013 at 08:30:04AM +1100, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi, its Kosher! wrote:
: I believe it is well accepted in our traditions that there are innate
: tendencies within our soul, our thinking, which gravitate towards
: Mentschlechkeit....
It's sad that Freud was a tinoq shenishba, because his theory really
suffered from his whole notion that the drive to do good resided in
the Super-Ego and was really a drive to conform to society and parental
expectation, rather than an inherent desire to do good.
(If this topic doesn't interest you, I address a different one of RMGR's
points further down. Look for the ----- .)
Without an offsetting drive to do good, Freud then ends up with this
whole thing about suppressing, repressing and sublimating one's gashmi
desires.
R Wolbe (Psychiatria veDas, Bishvilei HaRefu'ah vol 5 pg 68
<http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=28406&;st=&pgnum=68>) writes
about the Torah's parallel to the concept of subconscious. To quote
my translation of that section of the essay, pg 9
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/RWolbesWorld.pdf#page=9>:
Subconscious and Super-Conscious
"""""""""""" """ """""""""""""""
There is one last question for us to discuss: Does the Torah
recognize the [existence of a] subconscious? The answer is in
the affirmative. In the Tanakh we find that "Hashem [Tzevakos is
a righteous judge] who examines the kidneys and heart" (Yirmiyahu
11:20). And the Talmud establishes, "the kidneys advise, the heart
understands" (Berakhos 61a). The heart is the seat of the conscious,
the kidneys -- an idiom for the subconscious.
However, the subconscious known to Torah scholars is not that of
Freud, which is created by the suppression of desires or unpleasant
experiences. It is also not the unconscious of Jung, who believes in
archetypes which reside in a collective unconscious. We must turn
to the words of the Gra, "the Vilna Gaon": "All of a person's ways
follow the original desire; the original desire as it initially arises
is correct in his eyes." (Commentary on Mishlei 16:1-2) As if to
say, the desire is formed in such depths that our conscious has no
dominion over them. The "I" (perhaps: "Ego in the Freudian sense)
that is known to us is only a very small part of the essence of
a person. Hidden desire directs our ways -- they are the "advising
kidneys" in the idiom of Tanakh and our Sages, which we don't directly
feel in our activities. For the sake of brevity, we will have to
refrain here from bringing examples from the Torah about how this
"original desire" acts. Suffice it here to say that the hidden desire
has the ability to strive for things of the body or the spirit.
From the Torah's perspective, we would have to speak of a subconscious
and also of a super-conscious. There are lofty desires which originate
in the godly soul within us. They push us to ethical elevation and
closeness to God, and they bring us to more lofty emotions. This
spiritual original desire is appropriately called "super-conscious,"
and we must leave the term "subconscious" for original desires
that draw one to satisfy physical indulgences. The desires of our
super-conscious are certainly no less strong than the desires of the
subconscious. This understanding of super -- and subconscious does not
invalidate the mechanisms of repression. We already saw above that it
was already known to Rabbi Yisrael Salanter 60 years before Freud. But
the Torah understanding does contradict Freud in a sharp way in that
he only finds the Libido in the subconscious, and in dreams which are
the window into the subconscious, only sexual matters. (Cf. [Victor]
Frankl's writings, Das Menschenbild der Seelenheilkunde, Stuttgart
1959, and Der Unbewusste Gott -- Psychotherapie und Religion.)
-----
: When I suggested that Tznius is the Hashkafa of not shouting to the
: world - Look At ME; I was defining Tznius. I was not explaining it. We
: have various levels of Tznius, some of which are absolute whilst others
: are subjective, as is seen in Halacha.
...
: We link lust to Tznius, but it is not necessarily so in all cases.
I think lust is linked to tzenius for the same reason Madison Ave so
frequently turns to sex and sexiness -- it's an easy way to get attention.
"Sex sells."
And so I think RnCS's (a/k/a "Chana Luntz") three categorizations of
"tzeni'us" all do derive from RMGR's definition.
1- Calling attention to oneself.
2- Intentionally being sexy, as it calls attention to oneself.
3- Trying for sexiness as per the surrounding culture, as it's the most
effective version of #2. Especially since our surrounding cultures tend
to identify importance with fame and with sexiness.
(And the reisha "fame and importance" touches what I said about
tzeni'us meaning not wanting to be Chazan, and how being American
tells women that not being able to be Chazanit or Rabbah would be
barring them from the important roles.)
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger It's never too late
mi...@aishdas.org to become the person
http://www.aishdas.org you might have been.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - George Eliot
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Message: 8
From: "Sholom Simon" <sho...@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 17:02:56 -0500
Subject: [Avodah] definition of 'shabbosdik'
> Running is not Shabbosdig. Walking is the only form of locomotion that
> is Shabbosdig, because by its nature walking is peaceful.
I once heard a shiur discussing some of the prohibitions on Beitzah 36
(riding, swimming). The rav posited that the "real" reasons for these
prohibitions (as opposed to: I might break a branch off for a whip --
really?) was just as Rn T"K said: locomotion (other than walking) is not
shabbosdicke. The reasons given in the gemara were only "convenient pegs"
upon which to put the hat. This yesod ("not shabbosdicke") is, for me, an
easier to understand in other situations, too -- e.g., vis-a-vis a
bicycle.
FWIW and YMMV,
-- Sholom
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Message: 9
From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 18:41:21 -0500
Subject: [Avodah] Eating Out
At 04:42 PM 12/11/2013, R. David Riceman wrote:
>RYL has hinted, but not stated clearly, that his reluctance to eat at
>others' houses is religious in origin. What precisely is the motivation?
I only rely on the OU and not on other hashgachos. I use only
factory packaged meat and poultry. This is my thing, and I know
that others do not follow it nor do I expect them to. Hence, I do
not eat in the homes of other people.
YL
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Message: 10
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 20:19:09 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Sledding on Shabbat
On 11/12/2013 12:52 PM, T6...@aol.com wrote:
> 1. Exercise -- breaking a sweat -- similar to running -- not "Shabbosdig"
Exercise is only forbidden when it's not fun. The SA explicitly
exempts young men from the prohibition on running, because they
typically enjoy it.
> 2. Making grooves in the snow and/or smoothing out the snow.
I don't see what issur there is in making grooves in snow. It's not soil,
so you're not ploughing. And I'm sceptical about applying "memarech" to
smoothing out snow too, if that is indeed something sledders would typically
do.
--
Zev Sero A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
the reason he needs.
- Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan
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Message: 11
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 20:23:55 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Quote
On 11/12/2013 8:20 AM, Richie wrote:
> This reminds me of the famous anonymous quote: One should be just as concerned what comes out of his mouth as for what goes in.
It's not at all anonymous. Matthew 15:11, Mark 7:15.
--
Zev Sero A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
the reason he needs.
- Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan
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Message: 12
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 20:05:45 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Yosef, a despot or a brilliant strategist and
On 11/12/2013 11:13 AM, Liron Kopinsky wrote:
> I also noticed this year that the enslaved Egyptians still had their own slaves.
Yes, it wasn't unknown in Chazal's time either for slaves to own slaves.
Technically, of course, everything a slave owns belongs to his master,
so his slaves are really his master's slaves, but in practise slaves
did have their own property that their masters chose not to confiscate,
presumably so they'd have an incentive to work well.
On 11/12/2013 1:38 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 10:38:42PM -0500,T6...@aol.com wrote:
> : Yosef let people keep 80% of what they produced. Halavai we should have
> : such "socialism" in America, with only a 20% tax rate!
>
> Vayiqbotz es kol okhel -- 341:48
This does *not* mean the entire crop. It also doesn't say how he obtained
that which he did gather; since the land didn't yet belong to Par'oh,
so Par'oh didn't have the right to just take it, the most obvious answer
is that he paid for it. That's not socialism, it's capitalism! He was
a speculator, hoarding in good years in anticipation of making a profit
in bad ones.
> which is why
> Vatir'ov kol Eretz Mitzrayim, veyitz'oq ha'am el Par'oh lalacham -- v. 45
> and Par'oh tells them to go to Yosef "asher yomar lakhem ta'asu" (ibid).
> Rashi ad loc quotes Bereishis Rabba that at the point of pasuq 45,
> all the other food was gone -- Yoseif had a monopoly.
Rashi also says *why* all the other food was gone. Yosef didn't take
it away. On the contrary, the Mitzrim, being forewarned, *did* each
store plenty of food for themselves, presumably enough that should have
lasted them seven years (since they knew that was how long the famine
would last). They were hungry because their stores rotted, not because
Yosef confiscated them.
On 11/12/2013 1:55 PM, Liron Kopinsky wrote:
> What was interesting to me this year is that during the 7 years or plenty, Yosef also taxed them at only 20% (and that was taxation).
Where do you see this? "Vechimesh" means "he should mobilise", not
"he shouldfifth".
--
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name
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Message: 13
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 20:49:15 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] The Gym, the Carpool, and Tzniyus
On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 04:21:03PM +0000, Chana Luntz wrote:
: > That's not what he says, though. A gezeira is enacted to prevent
: > violation. He speaks here of a commonly accepted and binding practice
: > to further the ideal of tzeni'us.
: Read the Meiri carefully. Down the bottom he indeed talks about commonly
: accepted and binding practice to further the ideal of tzni'us, but that
: wasn't what I was focussing on. What is much more fascinating is the
: Meiri's explanation higher up "that is to say, not [just] at the end of the
: matter when she commits adultery does she lose her ketuba ..." ...
I don't see the Me'iri as switching midstream from saying Das Yehudis is
din derabbanan to saying it's a gezeira.
Rather, I saw him as saying DY is a din derabbanan. But the forfeiture
of a kesuvah for violating it is a gezeira.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
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Message: 14
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 21:06:10 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Eating Out
On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 12:34:06PM -0500, David Riceman wrote:
> RMB:
>> if someone habituates in being machmir to avoid accidental sinning,
>> because he personally likes the sevara or taam hamitzvah of some shitah
>> that he knows isn't iqar hadin (e.g. many men who don't use the eruv but
>> their wives do), that's a hanhagah rather than an actual minhag.
> Does this practice falls under the rubric of halacha at all. To take an
> extreme example, Nero Wolfe wears only yellow pajamas. If he were an
> observant Jew would that be allowed to override any practice mandated by
> Judaism, or is it simply an aesthetic practice irrelevant to religion?
I intentionally picked practices that are under the Ramchal's definition
of perishus (MY pereq 14), implementations of qedoshim tihyu and/or
ve'asisa hayashar vehatov. The Ramchal has:
1- perishus behana'os: not to live a life of empty endulgence (I think of
the Ramban's naval birshus haTorah)
2- perishus bedinim: being machmir on sefeiqus and shitos that aren't
accepted as baseline law
3- perishus beminhagim: for spiritual ends
I tried flipping that list from a sur meira focus to an asei tov.
...
> What's the binding mechanism? Is it a type of implicit neder?
That is my understanding. I know people who received pesaqim to "be matir
neder" when switching to using the eruv or drinking chalav hacompanies.
But I don't know Nedarim well enough (despite the relative recentness of
Mes Nedarim and having just finished Shevuos) to address the rest of your
post.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger The mind is a wonderful organ
mi...@aishdas.org for justifying decisions
http://www.aishdas.org the heart already reached.
Fax: (270) 514-1507
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Message: 15
From: David Riceman <drice...@optimum.net>
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 09:47:56 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Sledding on Shabbat
RLK:
<<I'm looking online at the permissibility of sledding on Shabbat and I
see one of two things: 1) "There is no problem with that" 2) "Athletic
activities, bicycle riding, tennis, ball playing, swimming, skating and
sledding are forbidden.>>
I don't think you can lump all these things together. Ball playing, for
example, is a mahlokes between the Mehaber and the Rama (OH 308:45).
Swimming has a number of special issues (e.g. sehitah) which can lead
reasonable people to be stringent. Bicycle riding has led the Tzitz
Eliezer to enact a new gezeirah (much to my astonishment).
David Riceman
Go to top.
Message: 16
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 11:22:18 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Eating Out
To cite R Mordechai Torczyner (CCed) for the second time in two days,
here is the English subset of
http://rechovot.blogspot.com/2013/12/frumming-out-fitting-in-sou
rce-sheet.html
These are notes fcr "Shiur Theatre". Act I is about minhagim, act II
-- hanhagos (minhagei chassidus), and act III raises the issue of the
permissability of incurring the social cost (pirud).
I haven't yet digested it, but this seems to address so many recurring
Avodah discussions, I couldn't wait to share it.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
The Rebbetzin's Husband
Thursday, December 12, 2013
Frumming Out, Fitting In - A Source Sheet
... [Header and Intro deleted micha]
Frumming Out, Fitting In
R' Mordechai Torczyner - torczy...@torontotorah.com
Act One: Swapping Minhagim (Customs)
1. Tur Choshen Mishpat 368, citing Rav Sherira Gaon (10^th century Babylon)
...
As far as your local custom, that one who purchases from bandits and
thieves must return it to the owners and collect his expenditures from
them: If this is so, then all are obligated not to diverge from the
custom. As we say: "How do we know that custom is substantive?
Deuteronomy 9:14 states, 'Do not trespass the boundary of another, set
by early generations.'" This is certainly true for a practice which
inolves great improvement and elimination of strife. Therefore, do
according to your custom, do not diverge, and be at peace.
2. Sheiltot of Rav Achai Gaon (8^th century Babylon), Vayyakhel 67
...
Rav saw someone planting flax on Purim. Rav cursed him for working on
Purim, and his flax did not grow. But why did Rav do thus? Have we not
learned that they did not accept Purim as such a holiday [on which
planting would be prohibited]? Rav Kahana explained: This was a place
where their custom was not to work on Purim. Then why did Rav not
excommunicate him? The failure of his flax was his excommunication. And
how do we know that custom is substantive? Rava bar Abba cited Rabbi
Yochanan citing Rav: Proverbs 1:8 says, "Listen, my son, to the ethical
instruction of your father, and do not reject the teachings of your
mother."
3. Jerusalem Talmud, Yevamot 12:1
...
Rabbi Ba and Rav Yehudah said, citing Rav: Were Elijah the Prophet to
come and declare that a shoe may be used for the chalitzah rite, we
would listen. Were he to say that we may not use a sandal, we would not
listen to him, for many customarily use the sandal, and custom
overrides law.
Tidbit: Rabbi Ba = Rabbi Abba. (Yerushalmi often uses nicknames that drop
or slur the beginning of the name. And/or, add a Greek suffix, so that R'
Yehudah haNasi is at times "Rabbi Yudan". The most confusing is that R'
Illa is often quoted as "Rabbi Lo", so that "Rabbi Lo said" and "Rebbe
said: don't..." look identical.)
4. Emile Durkheim (20^th century France), The Elementary Forms of the
Religious Life
If religion has given birth to all that is essential in society, it is
because the idea of society is the soul of religion.
5. Rich Sosis and Candace Alcorta, Signaling, Solidarity and the Sacred,
Evolutionary Anthropology (2003)
http://www.anth.uconn.edu/faculty/sosis/publications/sosisanda
lcortaEA.pdf
These authors maintained that one of the primary functions of religion
is the promotion of group solidarity. They argued that collective
rituals enable the expression and reaffirmation of shared beliefs,
norms, and values, and are thus essential for maintaining communal
stability and group harmony.
6. Talmud, Pesachim 50b-51a
...
Regarding practices which are permitted, but people customarily
prohibit: You may not permit these in front of them.
7. Rabbi Ben Zion Uziel (20^th century Israel), Piskei Uziel b'She'eilot
haZman 2
...
All division of custom in prayer and mitzvah activities, and
contradictory rulings issued regarding communal matters performed in
public in one synagogue, fall under the prohibition of "You shall not
split yourselves." One could almost call this a mitzvah achieved
through transgression! It is clear that this is not the choicest form
of the mitzvah; just the opposite, we are obligated to maintain and
make evident, in our every situation and service of the Gd of our
salvation, the unity of the nation of Israel and its Torah, via which
Gd is glorified among His people.
8. Rabbi Isaac ben Sheshet Perfet (Rivash) (14^th century Spain),
Responsum 105
...
[This source deals with protocols for contracts, established by local
custom.] There may be cases in which a generic custom will not override
law, unless that law is uncertain. Clear law cannot be overridden by
generic custom, but only by custom stipulated by communal agreement.
9. Rav Hai Gaon (10^th century Babylon), cited in T'mim De'im of Raavad
119
...
How do we know that we are obligated to blow shofar on this day? And
regarding the essential text of the Torah, how do we know that this is
the Torah of Moshe, written from Gd's word? It is from the mouth of the
Jewish nation. Their mouths testify to it, and they also testify that
our deeds fulfill our ritual obligations, and that this has been
transmitted by tradition from the prophets, the law of Moshe at Sinai.
The words of the masses testify to every mishnah and gemara, and beyond
any proof is the [Talmudic] principle, "Go see what the nation says."
This [national practice] is the essence and basis, and after that we
look at the declarations of the mishnah and gemara in such matters, and
whatever emerges from them and we resolve is good. Anything that does
not match that which is in our hearts and which cannot be proved does
not uproot the essence.
Act Two: Accepting personal stringencies
10. Maimonides (12^th century Egypt), Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Deiot 4:2
...
One should not eat to the point that his stomach is full; he should
lack about one-quarter of his satiation.
11. Rabbi Yehudah haChasid (12^th century Germany), Sefer Chasidim 12
...
The great and superior fence for this [special piety] is abandonment of
food, for satiation brings on bad thoughts. How should one practice
this? If he has fish or meat or other delicacies before him, he should
not refrain from eating altogether, but out of awe of Gd he should not
fill his belly to the complete realization of his desires.
12. Talmud, Berachot 17b
...
[Addressing a personal stringency to avoid work on Tishah b'Av, in a
place where the community normally does work:] Since everyone does
work, and he does not do work, this will appear like self-righteous
arrogance.
13. Rabbi Yisrael Meir Kagan (20^th century Poland), Biur Halachah 639:7
["Vekhol Patur"]
[Regarding the Code of Jewish Law's condemnation of a Jew who sits in a
succah in the rain:] This applies specifically where there is a
violation of law involved, as in the case of one who is pained, thereby
desecrating Yom Tov.
14. Tosafot Chullin 2b ["Aval"]
[Regarding rabbinic disapproval of taking vows:] You might ask: Genesis
28 records, "And Yaakov vowed," and Yonah 2 states, "That which I have
vowed, I will fulfill!" One could say that in a time of need this is
permitted...
15. Talmud, Bava Metzia 30b
"And you shall inform them" - This refers to [Torah] their source of
life. "The path" - This refers to acts of kindness. "They will walk" -
This is examining the sick. "In it" - This is burial. "And the deed" -
This is justice. "They will perform" - This is to transcend the letter
of the law... As R' Yochanan taught, that Jerusalem was destroyed only
because they judged the law of Torah therein. Should they have used the
laws of force?! Rather, they insisted on the law of Torah, and did not
transcend the letter of the law.
16. Talmud, Pesachim 40a
...
A person of spiritual strength will not even soak wheat, which is
tough, on Passover.
17. Nachmanides (13^th century Spain) to Leviticus 19:2
...
After the text specified that which is entirely prohibited, it
instructed, generally, to separate from the permitted.
18. Talmud, Berachot 30a
...
Given the chance to be good, do not put yourself in a position to be
called bad.
19. Rabbi Aharon Lichtenstein (21^st cent. Israel), Does Judaism
Recognize an Ethic Independent of Halakhah?
If, however, we recognize that Halakhah is multiplanar and many
dimensional; that, properly conceived, it includes much more than is
explicitly required or permitted by specific rules, we shall realize
that the ethical moment we are seeking is itself an aspect of Halakhah.
20. Deuteronomy 13:1
...
Regarding all that I command you, take care to practice it. Do not add
to it, and do not subtract from it.
Act Three: Personal Practices, Communal Strife
21. Talmud, Nazir 4b
...
He told me, "I was a shepherd for my father in my town, and I went to
draw water from the spring, and I saw my reflection. My nature became
agitated and began to draw me from the world. I told myself: Empty one!
Why are you arrogant about a world that is not your own, when in the
end you will be decay and worms? By the Temple Service, I will shave
you off for the sake of Heaven!" I stood and kissed him on his head and
said, "May there be many more nazirites like you in Israel."
22. Rabbi Yehudah haChasid (12^th century Germany), Sefer Chasidim 11
...
This is the root of piety: One must transcend the law in all matters,
as it is said, "Gd is pious in all of His deeds."
23. Mishnah Berachot 2:5
...
Rabban Gamliel recited Shema on the night he was married. His students
said to him, "Haven't you taught us, our master, that a groom is exempt
from reciting Shema on the first night?" He replied, "I won't listen to
you, to keep myself from recognizing G-d as king even for a moment."
24. Lawrence Kohlberg (20^th century USA), Stages of Moral Development
III. Post-Conventional, Autonomous, or Principled Level: The individual
makes a clear effort to define moral values and principles that have
validity and application apart from the authority of the groups of
persons holding them and apart from the individual's own identification
with the group.
25. Proverbs 22:6, R' Shimshon Raphael Hirsch translation
...
Raise the boy according to the course his life will take when he is
grown; then he will not depart from it even in his old age.
26. Rabbi Moshe Sofer (Chatam Sofer) (18^th/19^th century Hungary)
1: Orach Chaim 197
...
All of the law which is contained in the Shulchan Aruch is that which
was given equally to all Israel, with no one excluded. However, he who
possesses only Torah does not even possess Torah (see Yevamot 109b),
for then his performance becomes trained habit, and that which fathers
pass on to sons (Yeshayah 38:19). Therefore, he who would act piously
with his Creator would be recognized by his deeds - that which his
heart originates for the sake of heaven, to vow as a nazirite in
whatever manner his heart desires. In this matter no two individuals
have the same style, because no two people love Gd in the same way.
27. Rabbi Naftali Zvi Yehudah Berlin (Netziv) (19^th century
Russia) to Numbers 24:6
...
Each garden has one central variety, and small quantities of other
varieties are planted around it. So, too, each Jew is filled with the
mitzvot of Gd, but each has one special mitzvah in which he is extra
careful, as is seen in Mechilta [Beshalach 251], "One who performs a
single mitzvah, faithfully, is worthy of Divine inspiration." And in
the Jerusalem Talmud [Kiddushin 1:9], regarding the statement, `One who
performs a single mitzvah is given good things,' they explain that this
refers to a person who designates a single mitzvah for himself, and
never violates it.
28. Rabbi Avraham Yitzchak haKohen Kook (20^th century Israel), ["Al"]
We will not measure every acquisition by our personal measure.
We will know that each individual is only a unit,
one portion, a share of our community,
and how could the whole judge but little?...
Each person toward his heart's desire will travel and succeed,
and from the fruit of their hands, their nation will be elevated.
Each in his trade will breathe the breath of life;
when he builds for himself a home, the ruin of our people will be
rebuilt.
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