Avodah Mailing List

Volume 31: Number 187

Sun, 10 Nov 2013

• 1. Re: Mesorah (Micha Berger)
• 2. Difficulties in Establishing a Household (Prof. Levine)
• 3. The Gym, the Carpool, and Tzniyus (Prof. Levine)
• 4. Yaakov's Assets (Prof. Levine)
• 5. Yaakov's Dreams (Prof. Levine)
• 6. Safeik and Taaroves (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Yaakov's Dreams (Ben Waxman)
• 8. Re: Yaakov's Dreams (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: Yaakov's Dreams (Micha Berger)
• 10. rashbam and peshat (Simi Peters)
• 11. Re: Yaakov's Dreams (Lisa Liel)
• 12. Re: Yaakov's Dreams (Zev Sero)
• 13. RSRH on Gid Hanashe (Prof. Levine)

On Mon, Nov 04, 2013 at 10:29:33PM -0500, Zvi Lampel wrote:
> But this does not detract from the fact that in the part of chapter
> seven I cite, the Rambam identifies the various Intelligences that
> move the galgalim (the causes of the forces of Nature) as the various
> angels who appeared to Avraham and Lot...

> One may maintain that by exercise of free will, the Rambam does not mean
> what I said...

Well, as I see it we have three choices:

1- The Rambam changed his mind between denying angels free will in Peirush
   haMisnayos (Cheileq, yesod #5) and the Moreh
2- He doesn't mean the same kind of angel
3- He doesn't mean the same kind of bechirah

I am not sure yet where to go from here, I just want to spell out the
directions I intend to explore.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

Below is part of RSRH's commentary on Bereishis 28:20-21.

20 Ya?akov made a vow as follows: If God will be 
with me and keep me on this path on which I am 
going, and will give me bread to eat and
clothes to wear;

21 And I return in peace to my father?s house ? then God will be God to me.

Ever since the gates of Paradise were closed, the establishment of
an independent household involves so many difficulties, hinges on circumstances
and situations so complex, that a person needs special help
from God so as not to forfeit the whole of his better self in gaining that
piece of bread. Who can count the people who were morally pure before
they set out on ?the path to bread and clothing,? but who subsequently,
for the sake of making a living and attaining social status, denied God,
spurned morality, were inconsiderate of their neighbor and of his human
dignity, and so on. Not for naught do our Sages say that ?this
path? alludes to Avodah Zarah, Gilui 
Arroyos,  Sh'vechas Domim and Loshon Harah (see Bereshis
Rabbah 70:4).

Thus far, Ya?akov has been a yoshav ohalyim  but now he is setting out
to seek a wife and sustenance for his wife and children. The dangers
involved seem to him so grave that first he prays for the preservation
of his character, that he not forfeit his spiritual and moral integrity.
Integrity is the first thing that the ancestral Jew wishes for himself
as he sets out to establish his home.
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 From http://tinyurl.com/lwvlaxh

It is unclear why exactly it is happening, but 
often the stop that immediately follows yeshiva 
drop-off is . . . the gym. Whether it is a 
women?s gym, or a private trainer, numerous 
mothers are leaving for these gyms with barely 
enough time to get to the yeshivos to drop off 
their children before going straight into their exercise routines.

<Snip>

The issue under discussion is a particular type 
of clothing emanating from the gentile world that 
entered the world of fashion in the 1980s, but 
came back with a vengeance in the year 2005. They 
are known as ?leggings??a nylon-lycra blend that 
is used almost universally in gyms across the 
country. The problem is that these leggings are 
often worn under a pencil spandex skirt. 
Frequently, these skirts do not reach the knee or 
will invariably rise above the knee?a serious 
halachic problem according to Rav Shlomo Zalman 
Auerbach, zt?l (Minchas Shlomo Vol. III 103:15), 
Rav Elyashiv, zt?l, and others (cited in Halichos 
Bas Yisroel page 71). The Kuntrus Malbushei 
Nashim (page 11) cites numerous poskim to this 
effect as well, as does the former chief rabbi of 
Tel Aviv in Assei Lecha Rav (Vol. VII p. 247).

What further complicates the issue is that many 
women are entirely unaware of the problem. They 
do not know that it is the nature of a pencil 
skirt worn with leggings to rise above the knee. 
Thus, even when the problem is pointed out to 
them, they will think that they personally are 
strictly adhering to modest dress.

Even though that part of the body is covered by 
the leggings, a mere covering is not sufficient 
for the portion above the knee, since this part 
is one requiring greater tzniyus?modesty?than the 
lower extremities (see Responsa Ohel Yissaschar 
Siman 10 for a full treatment of the issue). The 
idea is reflected in the derashah found in the 
Talmud (Moed Katan 16a), ?Just as the yerech 
(thigh) is b?seiser, hidden, so too regarding 
Torah.? Thus a skirt that entirely conceals the 
shape and form of the thigh is necessary.

<Snip>

The Skiing Controversy

Regarding the issue of a woman?s dress during 
skiing, there is a debate between Dayan Weiss, 
zt?l, versus Rav Elyashiv, zt?l, and Rav Ovadia 
Yosef, zt?l. Dayan Weiss forbids skiing entirely, 
since he rules that a woman may not wear pants 
under her skirt at all. Dayan Weiss held that all 
forms of pants are forbidden because they fall 
under the rubric of male clothing. Rav Elyashiv 
(Yashiv Moshe p. 170) and Rav Ovadia, on the 
other hand, permit it with the caveat that the 
skirt must be long enough to ensure that the 
knees be obscured at all times. They hold that, 
despite the prohibition of opposite-gender 
clothing, ski pants may be worn as long as a skirt is worn above them.

See the above URL for more. YL

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Below is part of RSRH's commentary on Bereishis 29: 10 -12

10 When Ya?akov saw Rachel, the daughter of 
Lavan, his mother?s brother, and the sheep of 
Lavan, his mother?s brother, Ya?akov
stepped up and caused the stone to roll off the 
mouth of the well, and watered the sheep of Lavan, his mother?s brother.

11 Ya?akov kissed Rachel and burst out crying.

12 Ya?akov then told Rachel that he was her 
father?s relative and that he was Rivkah?s son, 
and she ran and told her father.

In this episode we learn of the assets with which Ya?akov equipped
himself for building his future. Money he did not have. His most conspicuous
asset was his physical strength. What others could do only by
a combined effort, he did alone and without strain. His strong and
healthy body was, at that moment, his sole material asset. This is a great
treasure, an important asset for the future, an asset that can be attained
only by a past lived in purity. It is the foundation for oshur v'kavod, which
the Torah offers with its left hand (see Mishlei 3:16).

The second asset revealed here in Ya?akov is his unshakable sense of
justice and rectitude. Like Moshe, who also first found his future beside
a well, so Ya?akov, too, cannot tolerate treachery or dereliction of duty.
This is the same devotion to duty that Ya?akov was later to demonstrate
so admirably under the most trying conditions of servitude.

The third asset is enthusiasm for work, alacrity in action, enabling
him to lend a hand and to rush to someone?s aid, even where the matter
does not affect him personally ? a trait we would hardly have expected
of this ish tom yoshav ohellim.

Thus, Ya?akov?s personality included within it all the special qualities
of his people, a people destined to represent with equal dignity the
various material and spiritual pursuits in life. Ya?akov?s abilities were so
diverse that each one of his sons could claim that his own unique talent
came to him by inheritance from his father.

Question:  Are we to deduce from the fact that 
Yaakov had a strong and healthy body that he 
exercised while studying in the yeshiva of Shem 
v'Ever?  If so,  then should this be part of the "curriculum" in yeshivos?

See my (unpublished) article Exercise, Torah 
Learning and the Chofetz Chaim at 
http://personal.stevens.edu/~llevine/exercise_torah_cc_v2.pdf

I was told that Rabbi Yehudah Davis, Z"L,  who 
headed the Mountaindale Yeshiva for many 
years,  instituted a 20 minute period of exercise 
in his yeshiva when it was located in Brighton 
Beach and also went swimming with his talmidim in the summer before davening.

YL


YL
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Yaakov Aveinu leaves the home of Yitzchok and Rivka and has a dream 
in which he sees Malachim going up and down a ladder.

After residing with Lavan for 20 years he has a dream in which he sees sheep.

Hashem says to him, "Time to go home!"

YL

I often cite the case of two chatichos shuman and one of cheilev that
got mixed together so that their identities are lost. One person is
permitted to eat all three one after the other. According to the Rosh,
even simultaneously -- such as if all three are mixed into a stew.

I have used this idea repeatedly (first time was back in vol 4, most
revently in vol 29) as one of the underpinnings of my theory that safeiq
has to do with how people identify the item in question, rather than
with statistics.

I encountered a parallel example in Y-mi Yomi, Shevuos 10a. It is known
that there is a meis buried under one of two paths, but we no longer
know under which. Someone takes one on the way to the beis hamiqdash.
Later, they go to the miqvah. And then they take the other path and go
the BHMQ. This is not considered a case of vadai tum'ah beBHMQ!

Although I would have to conclude the Rosh does not hold like this Y-mi,
as the Y-mi requires keeping the sefeiqos that we would add together
distinct. The Y-mi's requirement of breaking up the two trips by going
to the miqvah in between would seem to exclude his case of a taaroves
of mi'ut-cheilev still not adding together.

The Bavli's resolution (Niddah 2a) is that the safeiq can't overcome
his chezqas tahor. Not an issue with cheilev.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When one truly looks at everyone's good side,
mi...@aishdas.org        others come to love him very naturally, and
http://www.aishdas.org   he does not need even a speck of flattery.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Rabbi AY Kook

Or as Rav Nachman Kahane says: In Eretz Yisrael, Yaacov dreams about 
angels. In chutz l'aretz he dreams about sheep.

Ben

On 11/10/2013 3:37 PM, Prof. Levine wrote:
> Yaakov Aveinu leaves the home of Yitzchok and Rivka and has a dream in 
> which he sees Malachim going up and down a ladder.
>
> After residing with Lavan for 20 years he has a dream in which he sees 
> sheep.
>
> Hashem says to him, "Time to go home!"

On 10/11/2013 8:37 AM, Prof. Levine wrote:
> Yaakov Aveinu leaves the home of Yitzchok and Rivka and has a dream
> in which he sees Malachim going up and down a ladder.
>
> After residing with Lavan for 20 years he has a dream in which he sees sheep.
>
> Hashem says to him, "Time to go home!"

I protest against this observation.  It's a chutzpah to Yaakov Avinu, who
was a Merkavah to Hashem, who was so connected to Hashem that he never had
a keri in his life, to imply that he had become megusham like this.  The
Avos were not normal people, and it is wrong to portray them like that.
Beside which, it's just amhoratzus. The pasuk says explicitly that Yaacov
didn't see sheep rather than mal'achim; rather, a mal'ach *showed* him the
sheep!  And Rashi says he was being shown what had really been going on for
years, that mal'achim would bring Lavan's rams in the night to mate with
Yaacov's ewes.   The sheep were a prop in the scene, just like the ladder
in the first dream.  So how is this a yeridah from the first dream?

This is as bad as the story of a speaker at the Agudah convention, who said that
Yitzchok Avinu was fooled by Eisav because "he liked a good dinner" ("er hot lib
gehat a gutte vetchere").   The LR at the time protested against this and said
the speakershould take a minyan to Mearas Hamachpela to apologise to Yitzchak,
because otherwise he would have to retract his words before the same audience,
which would not gather until the next year, and in the meantime Rosh Hashana
would come, and on RH one does not want to be in dispute with Yitzchak Avinu.


-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

On Sun, Nov 10, 2013 at 12:25:48PM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
>> After residing with Lavan for 20 years he has a dream in which he sees sheep.
>>
>> Hashem says to him, "Time to go home!"
>
> I protest against this observation.  It's a chutzpah to Yaakov Avinu, who
> was a Merkavah to Hashem, who was so connected to Hashem that he never had
> a keri in his life, to imply that he had become megusham like this...'

WRT going back to the pachim qetanim, we conclude that it's the ruchnius
inherent in honestly earned property that gave the pachim their value.

Why would it be so terrible to say that the sheep were similar?

IOW, there is a difference between paying attention to gashmius, and being
a megusham.

Tir'u baTov!

I think R' Eli Turkel's comment on the Rashbam sets up something of a false
dichotomy, i.e., *either* the perush of the Rashbam on the selling of the
bekhora is 'peshat', *or* the perush of the Rashbam is influenced by
Jewish/Christian polemics.  This formulation seems to assume that 'peshat'
is not interpretation, but something more akin to mathematics and that the
true parshan is completely uninfluenced by what is going on around him when
he writes his perush.  It also assumes that any hint of such an influence
somehow taints the perush. It is unclear to me why this should be the case.

Even assuming that the Rashbam was writing from a (consciously or
unconsciously) defensive posture, (an assumption I don't necessarily share,
but could), it should be possible to evaluate his reading in its own terms.
Now, the ganenet's version of this story is that the bowl of lentil soup
was the price of the bekhora, and that is certainly a possible
interpretation.  It is also the one with which we are probably most
familiar. A careful reading of the pesukim, though, opens up another
intriguing possibility: Yaakov asks Esav to sell the bekhora (Genesis
25:31).  [If the story stopped here, by the way, or we had never heard the
story before, we would naturally assume that he was asking Esav to sell the
bekhora for money.  This is, after all, what 'mekhira' typically means.] 
Esav says something like, "What do I need it for anyway?" (25:32), Yaakov
makes Esav swear and then the text says 'vayimkor et bekhorato le'Yaakov'
(25:33).  Only then does it say, 'Ve'Yaakov natan le'Esa
 v lehem u'nezid adashim' (25:34).  Again, all other things being equal,
 'mekhira' means sale for money. If, in this particular case, the price of
 the bekhora is the soup, why does Yaakov, not feed Esav first (i.e., pay
 for the bekhora) before receiving it?	As the Rashbam points out, the
 feeding of Esav after the sale is consistent with other biblical
 stories--and indeed widespread custom--where transactions are sealed with
 a meal (see the Rashbam on 25:31 and 33).  The Rashbam's reading is
 supported by another small detail in the text--the violation of biblical
 style in 25:34.  It should say, 'Va'yiten Yaakov...' rather than
 'Ve'Yaakov natan...' (as it does); this violation may indicate the meal is
 not actually part of the transaction.

Setting aside polemical considerations enabled me to take the Rashbam's
reading seriously, and I found that the Rashbam's reading forced me to read
the pesukim very carefully.  That made me notice things in the pesukim that
I had not noticed before.  I am not saying that the Rashbam was
uninfluenced by prevailing issues--he may well have been--but it might be
that his sensitivity to those prevailing issues made him notice things in
the text he would not otherwise have noticed.  That is what parshanut is
about.

Kol tuv,
Simi Peters
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On 11/10/2013 11:25 AM, Zev Sero wrote:
> On 10/11/2013 8:37 AM, Prof. Levine wrote:
>> Yaakov Aveinu leaves the home of Yitzchok and Rivka and has a dream
>> in which he sees Malachim going up and down a ladder.
>>
>> After residing with Lavan for 20 years he has a dream in which he 
>> sees sheep.
>>
>> Hashem says to him, "Time to go home!"
>
> I protest against this observation.  It's a chutzpah to Yaakov Avinu, 
> who was a Merkavah to Hashem, who was so connected to Hashem that he 
> never had a keri in his life, to imply that he had become megusham 
> like this.  The Avos were not normal people, and it is wrong to 
> portray them like that.

That's one view.  Another view is that on at least some level, they 
*were* normal people, albeit spiritually superior.  And yet another view 
is that jokes are jokes, and that one was kind of cute.

Lisa

On 10/11/2013 1:53 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 10, 2013 at 12:25:48PM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:

>>> After residing with Lavan for 20 years he has a dream in which he sees sheep.
>>> Hashem says to him, "Time to go home!"

>> I protest against this observation.  It's a chutzpah to Yaakov Avinu, who
>> was a Merkavah to Hashem, who was so connected to Hashem that he never had
>> a keri in his life, to imply that he had become megusham like this...'

> WRT going back to the pachim qetanim, we conclude that it's the ruchnius
> inherent in honestly earned property that gave the pachim their value.
> Why would it be so terrible to say that the sheep were similar?
>
> IOW, there is a difference between paying attention to gashmius, and being
> a megusham.

The point of the "vort" that was quoted is precisely that his dreaming
about sheep was a bad thing, that it meant that he had been negatively
affected by his stay in chu"l and therefore he needed to get out of there.
  

-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

The following is part of RSRH's commentary on Bereishis 32

33 Therefore, [even] to this day, the Children of 
Israel are not to eat the sinew of weakness which 
is on the upper joint of the thigh, for he
gripped the sinew of weakness at the upper joint of Ya?akov?s thigh.

In light of all this, there is no doubt about the meaning of the prohibition.
Throughout their long struggle, saro shel Esav was unable to defeat
Ya?akov, was unable to throw him down; but he was able to dislocate his
joint and prevent him from using his material power. Thus will Ya?akov
make his way through history: limping, unable to stand on both feet,
without a firm stand and a firm walk. This lack of stability is a necessary
condition for opening Esav?s eyes. If Ya?akov, too, had stood at the head
of his four hundred warriors, his invincible endurance would not have
revealed the finger of God in history. Therefore the descendants of
Ya?akov (who ? precisely through his material weakness ? will become
Yisrael, and will attest to God Whose power overwhelms everything else)
are not to eat the sinew of submission and material weakness.

Whenever Ya?akov?s descendants sit down to eat, they are to be confronted
by this admonition from the chronicle of their life?s wanderings:
They are to willingly forego this sinew, forego their physical strength,
which is given over to Esav. They must not think that their survival
depends on that kind of strength. Just because they are not armed with
the sword like Esav, and cannot even walk the earth with a firm stride,
they should not consider themselves unprotected, without security in
the vicissitudes of time. The strength of Ya?akov-Yisrael depends on
other, higher powers, against which the sword of Esav cannot prevail.

If Ya?akov falls, he falls not because of his limited physical power, but
because he fails to cultivate God?s protection. Conversely, if Yisrael stands
firm, it is not because of his physical and material strength, but because
God bears him aloft on the eagles? wings of His almighty power.

This is the message that was conveyed to Ya?akov, to be borne forever
in the hearts of all Israel. This is the Word whose full meaning is to
penetrate the consciousness of the nation, when it attributes its fall and
calamity not to God?s Will, but to its own lack of military preparedness;
when, instead of ensuring its future by returning to God, it asserts in
futile arrogance: ?Bricks have fallen, but we will rebuild with hewn stone;
sycamores have been cut down, but we will replace them with cedars.?

The book of Bereishis contains four Divinely ordained institutions:
Shabbos and Keshes, Milah and Gid Hanashe. The 
first two are of significance to all
mankind; the latter two have a similar meaning in the narrower sphere
of the Jewish people. Shabbos sets the moral and spiritual mission of mankind;
Milah sets Israel?s mission. Keshes is the emblem of the history of
mankind; Gid Hanashe is the emblem of Jewish history. It is the moral action
of man, and the fate ordained for man by God, that together determine
the sum total of all individual and communal life on earth.
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