Avodah Mailing List

Volume 31: Number 162

Fri, 13 Sep 2013

• 1. Re: Rosh Hashana: The Universal Two Day Yom Tov (Zev Sero)
• 2. Chatzi Shiur is not Assur Min HaTorah (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi, its Kosher!)
• 3. Re: What's the Truth About Tashlich? (Zev Sero)
• 4. Pills on Yom Kippur (Zvi Lampel)
• 5. Re: Rosh Hashana: The Universal Two Day Yom Tov (Lisa Liel)
• 6. Re: Why does cold trump hot (harchinam)
• 7. Teshuva Can Mean Rearranging Our Lives (cantorwolb...@cox.net)
• 8. The Storm and Jonah Final Thought for the ???? ??? ????? (cantorwolberg@cox.net)
• 9. Re: How many Korban Pesachs could be sacrificed in 1 day (Chana Luntz)
• 10. Pills on Yom Kippur (M Cohen)
• 11. Re: Rosh Hashana: The Universal Two Day Yom Tov (Prof. Levine)
• 12. www.crcweb.org/SchachMatFencing2013.pdf (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)
• 13. shma kolenu (Eli Turkel)
• 14. Rav and the butcher (Eli Turkel)
• 15. Re: www.crcweb.org/SchachMatFencing2013.pdf (Rich, Joel)

On 12/09/2013 5:39 PM, Lisa Liel wrote:
> See, and I would have phrased it differently.  "Although those of us
> living in Eretz Yisrael are zocheh to keep most yamim tovim the way
> they were originally intended to be observed, b'avonoteynu ha-rabbim,
> we are still stuck in the case of Rosh Hashanah."

You would rather have less kedusha than more?! There is an extra day
of Rosh Hashana, with all that comes with it, and you attribute it to
avonoteinu harabim and would rather not have it?!

When Ezra and Nechemia announced a second day of Rosh Hashana the people
cried, thinking that this meant they were still in galus, but they
assured them that this wasn't so: "Today is holy to Hashem your G-d,
don't mourn and don't cry [...] go eat fats and drink sweets, and send
presents to he who has nothing prepared [because they were only expecting
one day of yomtov], for today is holy to our L-rd, *and do not be sad*,
for Hashem's bliss is your fortress".



On 12/09/2013 7:13 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 05:52:11PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
>: I prefer the way he put it.  Are not we who do not live in EY zoche
>: every year to extra days of kedusha that is d'rabanan that those in
>: EY "miss out on."
>
> ... and miss out on qedushah EVERY DAY OF THE YEAR.

True, but if you can have that kedusha *and* a second day of yomtov, that's
even better!
  
> Besides, a reason why Yom Tov sheini shel goliyos has value is because
> it takes us two days in galus to achieve the same qedushah one can reach
> in one day in Eretz Yisrael!

Again, if you can then have a second day anyway, how much better.

-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

See the Meiri on the Mishneh Yuma, Re the Machlokes R Yochanan and Reish
Lakish.
But before we go there think about this, the Torah commands that we torment
ourselves, VeIniSam, and we would assume this means no eating or drinking
at all, after all the Torah is not prohibiting eating but demanding
affliction. Yet the onus is upon Rebbi Yochanan to argue his case that a
Chatzi Shiur IS Assur. And he does not point to the Passuk but needs to
argue a Sevara [another outstanding proof for the superiority of Sevara
over a Passuk - Lama Li Kera]
We might also ask, how does Reish Lakish, who permits Chatzi Shiur, explain
the Passuk VeIniSam?

The Meiri explains that Chatzi LeItzTaRufey means that one has initiated
his eating intending to eat a complete Shiur. However one who intends from
the outset to eat less than a complete Shiur is not transgressing a Torah
prohibition. He accordingly explains why an oath taken to eat a Chatzi
Shiur on Yom Kippur is valid and binding; it is not an oath that violates a
Torah prohibition.

so in fact everyone agrees that by Torah law we may eat on Yom Kippur a
Chatzi Shiur

We must conclude that affliction by not eating is more than the simple
denial of food since by Gd's word we may eat and yet consider ourselves
afflicted. Affliction, we must conclude, reflects upon a state of mind. Not
being able to eat the way one normally does is affliction.

We find in a similar vein that we may fast on Shabbos in order to relieve
ourselves of being tormented by a bad dream. Fasting is in this case, this
person's Oneg.
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On 12/09/2013 7:18 PM, Moshe Y. Gluck wrote:
> So R? NTzF pointed to a yellow cap in the ground and said that there
> was a mesorah that the Mei Shiloach ran under there. So the Talmid
> said, but Rebbe, there?s no water there now?! So R? NTzF said, You
> think too much like an American! You think Tashlich is about the
> water? It?s about Davening!

Back when most people in Melbourne used to go to the beach for tashlich,
I saw R Chaim Mordechai Perlow z"l, who was too frail to walk that far,
go outside, turn on a tap in the shul driveway, and say tashlich by the
running water.  Tap water is, after all, connected to the reservoir (and
according the strict din may even be used for a mikveh).

-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

On 9/12/2013 7:55 PM, avodah-requ...@lists.aishdas.org wrote:
> Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2013 18:59:39 -0400
> From: Micha Berger<mi...@aishdas.org>
>
> So can someone please explain to me the whole pills-on-YK
> thing?
There are poskim who do permit caffeine pills on other fast days, 
including Tish'a B'av, for the reason you noted--it is not derech 
achilah. On Yom Kippur, however, there is the additional concern of the 
gezeyrah against taking medicine. (And I'm not positive that there are 
no poskim who permit taking them without water.)

Zvi Lampel

On 9/12/2013 6:24 PM, Zev Sero wrote:
> On 12/09/2013 5:39 PM, Lisa Liel wrote:
>> See, and I would have phrased it differently.  "Although those of us 
>> living in Eretz Yisrael are zocheh to keep most yamim tovim the way 
>> they were originally intended to be observed, b'avonoteynu ha-rabbim, 
>> we are still stuck in the case of Rosh Hashanah."
>
> You would rather have less kedusha than more?! There is an extra day 
> of Rosh Hashana, with all that comes with it, and you attribute it to 
> avonoteinu harabim and would rather not have it?!

I don't see two days of Rosh Hashanah as more kedushah than one.  On the 
contrary.

> When Ezra and Nechemia announced a second day of Rosh Hashana the 
> people cried, thinking that this meant they were still in galus, but 
> they assured them that this wasn't so: "Today is holy to Hashem your 
> G-d, don't mourn and don't cry [...] go eat fats and drink sweets, and 
> send presents to he who has nothing prepared [because they were only 
> expecting one day of yomtov], for today is holy to our L-rd, *and do 
> not be sad*, for Hashem's bliss is your fortress".

Yisrael, im lo neviim heim, bnei neviim heim.  That was a special day, 
and I don't think we can generalize from it.

Lisa

What I learned [sorry, no source remembered; maybe someone else could
supply?] is something that makes much more sense. It is SEASONAL -- that is
to say, in the winter we are concerned for someone who is cold and in the
summer we are concerned for someone who is hot. If we want to open the
window for air in the winter [common in Israel] and keep the heat off, we
are concerned for someone who is cold. In the summer, when heat stroke or
other heat-related problems are a concern, if we want to be cheap and not
use air conditioning when it is very hot but there is someone who is very
hot, we must turn it on.

This is what we follow in our all-frum office as it is considered to be the
halacha [again, I have forgotten the quoted source for this] and it makes
the most sense, IMO.

*** Rena



On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 1:12 AM, JOSEPH MOSSERI
<joseph.moss...@verizon.net>wrote:

> So many people say that if one person is cold the HALACHA is that you have
> to close the window, turn off the airconditioner , etc..
> Years ago I asked a rabbi and he said to me that in reality thee is no
> such specific halachah.
> I just went searching the web and I found a piece on this subject which is
> based upon Baba Batra 22b and S.A. Hoshen Mishpat 155:39.
>
> Sorry, But I just don't get it.
> Why the over concern for a person that is "cold"?
> What about someone like me who is usually hot and I have a difficult time
> breathing when the room is not cool?
>
> What about if we have a minyan on a day like today that is very humid and
> warm outside so we have the air-conditioner set on 68-70 degrees F as we do
> all summer.
> Everyone is wearing light comfortable clothing and even short sleeves and
> one person is cold, he is wearing a sweater and a jacket. He wants the air
> conditioner off and for us all to choke on the stagnant hot air just for
> his warmth.
> Why is that right or fair?
> What about ahare rabim lehatot?
> Or al tifrosh min hatzibbur?
> Can't these sayings be employed here?
>
> Please explain,
> Thank you,
> Joseph Mosseri
>
>
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  Yom Kippur is referred to as Shabbat Shabbaton (Vayikra 23:32).
  Interestingly, the letters of Shabbat rearranged (tav, shin, vet)  are the shoresh of t'shuvah.
  It has been taught that Shabbat Shabbaton is the quintessence of repentance (t'shuva).
  


Some people are so openminded that their brains fall out.  
Anonymous

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I once read the following by an anonymous author:

It always takes a storm to call man back to his duties. It takes
a storm of war to call us back to our duties of peace. It takes
a storm of crime and juvenile delinquency to make us realize
that we have failed our youth. It takes a horrible conflagration
to make us revise our fire laws. It takes a horrible fatal car crash
to make us address the problem of drinking and driving. It takes
a horrible act of terrorism to increase our Homeland Security. I 
can go on and on but the bottom line is that a storm wakes us 
up and calls us back to our duty.

Finally, our lives are filled with unread books, broken promises,
unkept resolutions, unanswered letters and emails and even more
important, neglected friendships and harsh words to those we love
and those we don't love. It has been said this is due to our running
away from our duties (great or small) -- ultimately, running away
from the Almighty. We are all little Jonahs.
??? ??? 


Some people are so openminded that their brains fall out  
Anonymous

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I wrote:
>   but given the
> gemora's resolution that in fact he only took the kidney from the 
> korban pesach for a moment until he was given some sort of token in 
> exchange (which allowed the korban pesach kidney to then be burnt on 
> the mizbeach as required), it could be that he took the kidney, and 
> then gave it back in exchange for some tokens that illustrated the 
> numbers of people counted on that korban, and those tokens were then 
> themselves deemed (and called) "kidneys" - and it is to those that the
shishim ribui zugei kilos refers.
> That would cut the numbers in the Azarah to at least a tenth of RMB's 
> calculation - which would still make for serious numbers,  but 
> presumably not enough to make Rava's position bizarre.


And RZS replied:

>So what does "and there is no Pesach that does not have at least ten people
signed up for it" mean?  If he was counting people rather than korbanos, how
is the minimum subscription per korban >relevant?  Is the gemara trying to
tell us how many korbanos those 1.2M tokens represented, and minimising the
number by saying that if there were 1.2M tokens there could have been *no
more* than 120K?!  That doesn't seem consistent with the immediately
preceding line, "beside those who were tamei or far away", which serves to
*increase* the population.

You would have to read that line disjunctively - ie the first section is
telling you how many people (1.2 million) plus the people who were tamei or
far away.  Then one would have to understand there being a slight shift in
topic, despite the vav, ie a shift to then telling us about how many
korbanos there actually were, now that we know about the people.  There
might *perhaps* be some support for this from the next line "And they called
it the pesach "meuvin"" - which seems to come from "avah" - fat or thick.
Rashi suggests this is because of the number of people - but could it be
because of the fatness of the korbanei pesach? - ie that year the korbanei
pesach were so very fat that many people were able to be registered for each
- and that is how they managed even with this number of people (if you cease
being beguiled by extraordinary numbers like 12 million - you realise that
1.2 million is still an incredibly large number.  If there were 1.2 million
plus those who were tameh then, as R' Bulman suggests, the vast majority
would still have had to stay home on that afternoon to avoid the streets
being gridlocked.  But Jerusalem today does house more than that, and if
most people stayed put where they were staying in Jerusalem, and only one in
ten or an even smaller percentage went to the Beis HaMikdash, then it would
seem manageable without miracles, despite being noteworthy, just like a
large levaya with 100,000 in attendance in the streets of Jerusalem).

I agree it is not nearly as smooth a read as the one R' Marty Bluke
suggested.  Were there not the practical problems with the simple read, I
would never suggest it - but the alternative does avoid bringing masses of
miracles into the equation - so that at the very least the simplest read
cannot be how Rava understood it.  And the alternative read also avoids the
other problems that people have raised - such as us having a pretty good
idea from Roman censuses and the like how many people there were in the
Roman empire.  Not to mention how many Roman soldiers there were with
Vespasian and Titus.  With 12 million able to come up for aliyah l'regal -
the Jews should have been able to overwhelm the attacking Roman legions just
a few years later by sheer numbers.  You start needing miracles on the other
side - ie on the side of the Romans, to have them win at all (and yet the
Romans did not claim "rabim b'yad meatim" - which you inevitably do if you
win against the odds, nor did they claim to have anything near this number
of soldiers).

-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and

Gmar Chatima Tova

Chana

R Shlomo Miller (Toronto) told me that although some poskim allow pills on
YK (and he doesn't protest one who relies on those poskim), 
he personally doesn't doesn't agree because rov of the pill is actually
starch filler - which is a normal ma'achal

Besides, many such pills have a sugar coating on the outside
(try licking one and you'll see if it's so)

Also, glycerin tablet are also a ma'achal
(place in water, and the glycerin dissolves quickly and is sweet - ie
ma'achal)

GCT, mc

At 07:13 PM 9/12/2013, Micha Berger wrote:
>Besides, a reason why Yom Tov sheini shel goliyos has value is because
>it takes us two days in galus to achieve the same qedushah one can reach
>in one day in Eretz Yisrael!

>And this isn't just a nice vort.... It is invoked lehalakhah in favor of
>keeping one day when in EY (or one plus the 2nd day lechumerah) because
>being "machmir" and keeping two is actually insulting qedushas ha'aretz.

Sources,  please.

See http://www.crcweb.org/SchachMatFencing2013.pdf

Why should there be a difference if the schach is parallel or
perpendicular to the support beams? If it's parallel it's more mechzei like
a fence?

KT, GCT,
YGB
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<<To my mind, this isn't the part that sticks out. We always say "yehi
leratzon imrei fi" quietly. Most even have the chazan opening chazaras
hasha"tz by saying it quitetly. And it's in the singular, meaning it's
something I'm saying for myself, not for the tzibur. So why would we
proclaim it together congregationally?>>

I found later that some of the commentaries on the Mateh Ephraim explain
that the pasuk is in singular as the opening to shmoneh esre. Since in shma
kolenu it is in plural it should not be said by the entire congrgation out
loud. Instead we say that one phrase quietly so it is similar to being in
singular

-- 
Eli Turkel
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In a series of shiurim Rav David Lau (chief rabbi) brought the famous story
about the butcher that insulted Rav. Rav went to the butcher shop on erev
YK so the butcher could apologize. Instead the butcher threw Rav out of the
shop. As a punishment a bone came from an animal and killed the butcher.
BTW I saw someone that said that it was partially Rav's fault for coming on
erev YK when the butcher was super busy.

In any case someone in the audience hinted that many other of the shiurim
had already mentioned this story and we knew it well.
Rav D. Lau responded that it was good to repeat this story many times on
erev YK since this is the yahrzeit of the butcher !!

-- 
Eli Turkel
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See http://www.crcweb.org/SchachMatFencing2013.pdf

Why should there be a difference if the schach is parallel or perpendicular to the support beams? If it's parallel it's more mechzei like a fence?

KT, GCT,
YGB

--------------------------------------------------------------
Practical issue - -It's more likely to fall in?  But what investigation did they do, that the manufacturer didn't have in mind to make it a kli?
GCT
Joel Rich
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