Avodah Mailing List

Volume 31: Number 160

Thu, 12 Sep 2013

• 1. Re: Fwd: Tefillin d'Rabbenu Tam (Micha Berger)
• 2. unetaneh tokef (saul newman)
• 3. Text of Alenu (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi, its Kosher!)
• 4. Re: Text of Alenu (Chesky Salomon)
• 5. Re: Avodah Digest, Vol 31, Issue 159 (Ezra Chwat)
• 6. Re: Text of Alenu (Lisa Liel)
• 7. Re: How many Korban Pesachs could be sacrificed in 1 day? (T613K@aol.com)
• 8. Re: Minhagim of the Ashkenaz Synagogue ("The Luach") (5774) (Eli Turkel)
• 9. Re: Nesane Tokef (Micha Berger)
• 10. Paying those who broke your barrels (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: shma kolenu (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: shma kolenu (Zev Sero)
• 13. Re: shma kolenu (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: shma kolenu (Chesky Salomon)
• 15. Re: shma kolenu (Micha Berger)
• 16. Re: self defense against rape or assault / stand (Chana Luntz)
• 17. Rosh Hashana: The Universal Two Day Yom Tov (Prof. Levine)
• 18. What?s the Truth About Tashlich? (Prof. Levine)

On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 02:45:29AM +0000, shalomy...@comcast.net wrote:
: But, the more I thought about it, it made less sense. Those who put on Rabbenu Tam tefillin 
: presumably do so because there is a safek about which is right...

I would not assume this. It would mean that every lifnim mishuras hadin
is to cover one's halachic bases, and not because doing things the other
way resonates with their aggadic position or lomdus.

Does someone who is careful not to fress out on kosher food -- qadeish
es atzmekha bemah shemutar lakh -- doing so out of doubt over kashrus?

I got the following from Liqutei Halakhos, OC, Tefillin 5:27-29, 6:16:

Maggid of Mezritch:

In R' Tam tefillin, "vehayah im shomoa" which warns against violation and
thus expresses midas hadin, precedes "shema yisrael" and middas harachamim.
This was the original intent -- to create the world al pi din. (To throw
in inyana deyoma: The same Rabbeinu Tam says "hayam haras olam" refers
to the conception of the world, not its birth. Because the plan was to
rely on midas hadin, and thus appropriate for Tishrei. But the actual
execution was via the rachamim of Nissan.)

Rashi's tefillin, however, reflects our current dependence on midas
harachamim.

R' Nachman continues the thought:

So the chiyuv is al pi Rashi, since that's how the world actually works.

But wearing Rabbeinu Tam's draws down the energies of the ideal, the avos,
etc...

In 6:16 R' Nachman does refer to doubt, but not the doubt about which is
the din, but about when to use rachamim and when din.

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The fittingness of your matzos [for the seder]
mi...@aishdas.org        isn't complete with being careful in the laws
http://www.aishdas.org   of Passover. One must also be very careful in
Fax: (270) 514-1507      the laws of business.    - Rav Yisrael Salanter

http://download.yutorah.org/2013/1053/Rosh_Hashanah_To-Go_-_
5774_Rabbi_Brander.pdf
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It is not possible for a Sefer of authentic Jewish tradition to endorse or
encourage activity that endangers Jewish life in any way.
To suggest otherwise suggests that one has an unreal, skewed, romantic
perspective of Yiddishkeit.
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On 9/10/2013 7:00 PM, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi wrote:
> It is not possible for a Sefer of authentic Jewish tradition to endorse
> or encourage activity that endangers Jewish life in any way.
> To suggest otherwise suggests that one has an unreal, skewed, romantic
> perspective of Yiddishkeit.

It?s somewhat difficult for me to determine what your message is in
reply or reaction to.  Would you please elaborate a bit?

?Chesky

08 Sep 2013 15:30:25 -0500
From: Lisa Liel <l...@starways.net>

On 9/8/Eli Turkel wrote:
> In spite of the popular legend attributing Unesane Tokef to Rav Amnon ... from the Cairo Genizah that in fact it is much older going back to Yannai.
Yannai?  How do we know this?

1. Unitane Tokef appears in Genizah Fragment Cambridge T-S H8.6, available
at http://www.genizah.org. There, it
functions as the Siluq,  (the third section of the Krovah, introducing the
Kedushah- hence: "Unitaneh Tokef Kedushat Hayom").
2. Yosef Yahalom, 'Piyut umitziut' 1999 p. 237 suggests, that the author
may be Yannai, due to its context in the Genizah fragment. A. Frankel
(Zion, 2002, p. 125-138 n. 6), sees the lack of proper rhyme as a sign that
it's too primitive for Yannai, and suggests Yose b. Yose. But both of these
are at best, educated guesses.
3. The eretz Israeli Siluq- Unitaneh Toqef, is known in Europe at the time
of Rashi, who's bet midrash produced commentaries on numerous piyutim,
including this one. (E. Hollender, Clavis Comentariorum, 2005 p. 605 lists
46 manuscripts with perushim to Unitane Tokef). 
4. The early  Ashkenazic mahzorim, from the times of the Rishonim, use the
Kallirian Krovah, titled "Opad me'Az leShpot Hayom" which originally had
its own Siluq, titled "Mi Lo Yirakha". Unitaneh Tokef is inserted in its
place. The legend of R. Amnon may have something to do with this.


Ezra Chwat
The Department of Manuscripts/
The National Library of Israel
blog: Giluy Milta B'Alma: http: http://imhm.blogspot.com/
 

On 9/10/2013 6:00 PM, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi, its Kosher! wrote:
> It is not possible for a Sefer of authentic Jewish tradition to 
> endorse or encourage activity that endangers Jewish life in any way.
> To suggest otherwise suggests that one has an unreal, skewed, romantic 
> perspective of Yiddishkeit.

Can I ask what this comment is in reference to?  I mean, I know that a 
milchemet mitzvah can endanger Jewish lives, and that this is not an 
"unreal, skewed, romantic perspective."

Lisa

 
From: Marty Bluke  <marty.bl...@gmail.com>

>>Recently I learned Pesachim 64b  (daf yomi) where the Gemara states that
King Agrippas wanted to take a census  so he had the Cohanim count the
number of Korban Pesachs that were brought  and it came out to 1.2 million
korbanos, 12 million people (10 to a  korban)....


1. The Korban Pesach is only brought in the afternoon of  the 14th of Nisan
...That means that they had to sacrifice over 340,000  korbanos an hour, 
over 5700 a minute and over 95 a second. ...


2. How could they possibly fit all of the people and animals in the  Azara?
...The Beis Hamikdash was simply not that big...
 

....given the dimensions of the Mishkan and the
Beis Hamikdash  and the number of people, how did everyone ever bring a
korban pesach? The  numbers just don't work. ...

 
>>>>
 
I asked my brother, R' Shabsi Bulman, that question, and here is his  reply:
 

"EVEN IF ONLY ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND PEOPLE WERE OLEH LAREGEL THE LOGISTICS  
OF THEIR STAY WOULD BE NEAR IMPOSSIBLE. (ASK ANYONE WHO HAS BEEN TO A MAJOR  
LEVAYA.) IT IS OVERWHELMINGLY CLEAR THAT EVERYTHING ABOUT ALIYA LAREGEL IS  
MAASEH NISSIM FROM BEGINNING TO END. GMAR CHASIMA TOVA."
 
That is similar to what REMT wrote here on Avodah:  "it is still  
impossible without nissim."

 
My brother also wrote:
 
 
"ACTUALLY IT IS NOT MY IDEA AT ALL. BUT UNFORTUNATELY I DO NOT RECALL WHERE 
 I SAW IT, MANY YEARS AGO."

 
 
So there's a source that it was all nissim.  Now we just have to find  that 
source.....

--Toby Katz
..GCT
=============


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<<It all depends where you are located.  6:20 is before sunrise in some
places.>>

I saw in the Mate Ephraim (581:11) that the old minhag was to say selichos
at the end of the night. However, recently (in his days) they wait until
"alot haschachar". (not sunrise!!).
However on Saturday night/sunday morning they begin earlier because the
language of the pizmon talks about night
However, one who says tikun chazot can say the selichot afterwards.
Hence, it would seem that saying selichot at midnight is better than sunrise



-- 
Eli Turkel
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On Sun, Sep 08, 2013 at 09:27:09PM IDT, R Eli Turkel wrote:
> I saw an interesting comment from from R. Brander.

On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 02:33pm (PDT), R Saul newman gave us the URL:
:
: http://download.yutorah.org/2013/1053/Rosh_Hashanah_To-G
: o_-_5774_Rabbi_Brander.pdf

Or http://j.mp/17ZIPyI

Back to RET:
>                                                    He says that the Or
> Zarua uses the language "Yesed Unesane Tokef". Thus his interpretaion
> is that it was established in Ashkenaz by a Rav Amnon. However, indeed
> it was written many centuries earlier.

On Sun, Sep 08, 2013 at 03:30:25PM (EDT), Lisa asked RET:
> What's his source for that conclusion?

I'm missing the question.

The story dates back at least to 1205 (where it was found in a manuscript
machzor in Oxford), and the OZ (1180-1250) saw it in the writings of a
R' Ephraim miBuna bar Yaaqov (1132). So, the connection between R' Amnon
miMagentza and Unsaneh Toqef was made within a century of when the story
is placed, and made by someone who was a known expert in older piyut.

So the question is, which is more plausible:

1- That people already thought that R' Amnon composed the piyut himself
that soon after the event,

2- The mistake was made because people presumed that Or Zarua's "yasad"
meant authorship.

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             With the "Echad" of the Shema, the Jew crowns
mi...@aishdas.org        G-d as King of the entire cosmos and all four
http://www.aishdas.org   corners of the world, but sometimes he forgets
Fax: (270) 514-1507      to include himself.     - Rav Yisrael Salanter

The famous story as told by the Y-mi (BM 6:6 27a-b) has differences from
the more famous version in the Bavli (BM 83a).

Bavli:
    Rabah bR Hunah hired people to carry a barrel (chavis) of wine. The
    barrel broke, and RBRH lost his wine. He grabbed their shirts as
    collateral to get reimbersed for the wine. The case came before Rav.

    Rav insisted RBRH return the shirts without getting reimbersed.
    When RBRH asks if that's the halakhah, Rav invokes
    "lema'an teileikh bederekh tovim" (Mishlei 2:20) Then the workmen
    complain that they are poor and need the day's wages. Rav
    orders them to be paid. RBRH again asks if that's truly the
    halakhah, and Rav quotes the end of the pasuq, "ve'orchos
    tzadiqim tishmor.

In the Yerushalmi, the employer is R' Nechemiah, who hires a single
person to carry a pot (qadar). R' Nechemiah seizes his shirt, and the
question comes before R Yosi bar Chanina.


The Chida says that the citation of the same story in both shasin is
an indication that the amoraim in Bavel had access to the Y-mi when
they had the conversations recorded in the gemara.

But I'm wondering.... if so, why do they insist on different details?

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One doesn't learn mussar to be a tzaddik,
mi...@aishdas.org        but to become a tzaddik.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Sun, Sep 08, 2013 at 10:01:55PM +0300, Eli Turkel wrote:
: 1) why is the phase yewhi leratzon imre phi ... recited quietly

To my mind, this isn't the part that sticks out. We always say "yehi
leratzon imrei fi" quietly. Most even have the chazan opening chazaras
hasha"tz by saying it quitetly. And it's in the singular, meaning it's
something I'm saying for myself, not for the tzibur. So why would we
proclaim it together congregationally?

1- Why am I interrupting the sequence to ask Hashem to listen to my
tefillos? Why is it not in the beginning, before the tefillah, like at
Shemoneh Esrei?

2- Alternatively, why don't we shift the request into being part of the
tefillah, by turning it into the plural? Make it like birkhas Shomeia
Tefillah. After all, we turn Tehillim's "al tashlicheini le'eis ziqnah"
to "al tashlichainu" and recite the result out loud together.

: 2) why do we say the last part after  cichlot cochenu al taazvenu quietly
: (Mateh Efraim 581/18 brings the minhag but doesnt give a reason)

I don't think we can answer this until we know why of all Selichos, Shema
Qoleinu is recited line-by-line responsively. Once we know why the other
verses are responsive, we would know why the reasoning stops applying.

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             For those with faith there are no questions.
mi...@aishdas.org        For those who lack faith there are no answers.
http://www.aishdas.org                     - Rav Yaakov of Radzimin
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On 11/09/2013 6:01 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 08, 2013 at 10:01:55PM +0300, Eli Turkel wrote:
> : 1) why is the phase yewhi leratzon imre phi ... recited quietly
>
> To my mind, this isn't the part that sticks out. We always say "yehi
> leratzon imrei fi" quietly. Most even have the chazan opening chazaras
> hasha"tz by saying it quitetly.

Closing, not opening.

> And it's in the singular, meaning it's
> something I'm saying for myself, not for the tzibur. So why would we
> proclaim it together congregationally?

No, it's in the plural.


> 1- Why am I interrupting the sequence to ask Hashem to listen to my
> tefillos? Why is it not in the beginning, before the tefillah, like at
> Shemoneh Esrei?

No, it's at the end there.   Here, depending on what nusach you're using
it's either close to the end (second last line), or (as RET's question
assumes)bang in the middle.


> 2- Alternatively, why don't we shift the request into being part of the
> tefillah, by turning it into the plural?

We do.




-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 06:13:07PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
>> And it's in the singular, meaning it's
>> something I'm saying for myself, not for the tzibur. So why would we
>> proclaim it together congregationally?
>
> No, it's in the plural.

You say "imrei finu"? AFAIK, every qehillah refers to one's own tefillos,
not the congregation's. (Yes, "imrei" is in the plural, but to be something
I'm saying for the tzibur, it would be the posessors of the mouths that
would require pluralization.)

GCT!
-Micha

On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 6:01 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 08, 2013 at 10:01:55PM +0300, Eli Turkel wrote:
> : 1) why is the phase yewhi leratzon imre phi ... recited quietly
>
> To my mind, this isn't the part that sticks out. We always say "yehi
> leratzon imrei fi" quietly. [...] And it's in the singular, meaning it's
> something I'm saying for myself, not for the tzibur. So why would we
> proclaim it together congregationally?
<snip>
> 2- Alternatively, why don't we shift the request into being part of the
> tefillah, by turning it into the plural? Make it like birkhas Shomeia
> Tefillah. After all, we turn Tehillim's "al tashlicheini le'eis ziqnah"
> to "al tashlichainu" and recite the result out loud together.

In the same piyut (Shema Koleinu), the passuk "yihyu leratzon imrei
fi" *is* changed to "... imrei finu" -- and yet the phrase is said
quietly (according to R' Artscroll).

--Chesky

On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 07:48:50PM -0400, Chesky Salomon wrote:
: In the same piyut (Shema Koleinu), the passuk "yihyu leratzon imrei
: fi" *is* changed to "... imrei finu" -- and yet the phrase is said
: quietly (according to R' Artscroll).

First I confuse this line with "H', sefasai tiftach". Then I get the
nusach wrong.

I'm giving up until my brain catches up to my fingers.

GCT!
-Micha

On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 09:07:08AM -0400, M Cohen wrote:
: If the attacker is a nJ and actually strikes, then it would appear they
are
: chayav misah and one could kill them (because nJ who hits a Jew is chayav
: misah)

And RMB responds:

>How does that follow? A chiyuv misah doesn't equate to kanaim pog'im bo.
Misah requires due process (which isn't as alaborate of a process as for a
J, but that's a different question).

Just to back up what RMB is saying - The Hagahos Ashri in Avodah Zarah perek
5 siman 5 quoting one of the Ba'alei Tosphos says explicitly that: "a Ben
Noach even though he violates the seven mitzvot and they warn him that this
is his death, and even though he does not need community and witnesses
[plural] and formal warnings [for the beit din to judge him], in any event
in any time that he is not judged in Beis Din, he is not obligated in death
["ain chayavin misa"] and it is forbidden to kill him ["asur lharego"] and
if he accepts to fulfil the seven mitzvos before 3 we are obligated to
sustain him."

Note that the Bene Banim chelek 3 Ma'mar 4 ois 3 discusses this, and also
argues at length that the Rambam should also be explained as agreeing with
the Hagahos Ashri.

You can also see from the Hagahos Ashri that if subsequent to these actions
a violating NJ decides to become a ger toshav (as with deciding to be a ger
tzedek), there is no chiyuv misa that hangs over him from his previous deeds
that might prevent the obligation to sustain him (ie the active obligation
to feed him and otherwise support his life) kicks in.

>GCT!
>-Micha

Gmar Chatima Tova

Chana

 From http://tinyurl.com/lgr2sn3

Although my good friend Moshe moved from Eretz Yisrael to America 
several years ago, nevertheless, he (as do many others) enjoys 
returning for Yom Tov. "There is nothing quite like celebrating Yom 
Tov in Eretz Yisrael", he is wont to say. Yet, living in Chutz 
La'aretz, he still cannot get over observing what should ostensibly 
be a one-day Yom Tov for two days. With a record number of 'Three-Day 
Yom Tovs' (Two days of Yom Tov immediately followed by Shabbos) in a 
row, this year his dilemma is easily understandable. Why should a 
Biblical holiday that is explicitly mentioned as a one day Yom Tov be 
celebrated for two?

<Snip>

In conclusion, we should realize that 'Yom Tov Sheini' is not simply 
a chumra, but rather halacha, established millennia ago by our great 
leaders. Although those of us living in Eretz Yisrael are largely 
exempt from its observance, we fortunately merit tasting its extra 
kedusha at least once a year: on Rosh Hashana!

See the above URL for much more. YL
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 From http://tinyurl.com/meqgdja

by Rabbi Dr. Zivotofsky, who is on the faculty of the Brain Science 
Program at Bar-Ilan University in Israel.

It is interesting to note that there were those who did not practice 
tashlich at all. The Gra reportedly did not perform tashlich, nor did 
his star pupil Rabbi Chaim of Volozhin.17 The Chayei Adam fails to 
record the custom. From the Aruch Hashulchan (OC 583:4) it seems that 
tashlich was far from a universal custom; furthermore, the Aruch 
Hashulchan has an ancillary problem with the custom. He advises women 
not go to tashlich so as not to create a mixed scene. If they do go, 
he suggests the men should stay home.18 Evidently, the custom was not 
very important to him.19

In the final analysis, God doesn't desire only the symbolic act of 
tashlich or just the davening and fasting on Yom Kippur. He wants 
true repentance, as found in the words of Yonah (3:10) used by the 
town elder on public fast days (Ta'anit 2:1): "And God saw their 
deeds that they had repented from their evil ways, and the Lord 
relented of the evil that He had spoken to do to them, and He did not do it."

See the above URL for more. YL

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