Avodah Mailing List

Volume 31: Number 158

Sun, 08 Sep 2013

• 1. Re: Minhagim of the Ashkenaz Synagogue ("The Luach") (5774) (Elazar M. Teitz)
• 2. Re: Minhagim of the Ashkenaz Synagogue ("The Luach") (5774) (Kenneth Miller)
• 3. Re: Minhagim of the Ashkenaz Synagogue ("The Luach") (5774) (Marty Bluke)
• 4. Re: How many Korban Pesachs could be sacrificed in 1 day? (Marty Bluke)
• 5. A THOUGHT FOR EREV YOM TOV (cantorwolb...@cox.net)
• 6. Re: Minhagim of the Ashkenaz Synagogue ("The Luach") (5774) (Harry Maryles)
• 7. Re: How many Korban Pesachs could be sacrificed in 1 day? (Arie Folger)
• 8. Re: Minhagim of the Ashkenaz Synagogue ("The Luach") (5774) (Prof. Levine)
• 9. Re: Minhagim of the Ashkenaz Synagogue ("The Luach") (5774) (Micha Berger)
• 10. text of Alenu (Eli Turkel)
• 11. Re: How many Korban Pesachs could be sacrificed in 1 day? (Zev Sero)
• 12. FINAL THOUGHT OF THE YEAR (cantorwolb...@cox.net)
• 13. Re: text of Alenu (Lisa Liel)
• 14. Re: Minhagim of the Ashkenaz Synagogue ("The Luach") (5774) (Marty Bluke)
• 15. Re: text of Alenu (Micha Berger)

     RDYitzchok Levine wrote, "Shall we say that the saying of the first
     selichos at 1 am is just as authentic as saying them at 6:20 am on 
     Sunday morning as I did?  I personally think not."

     You are right.  Saying S'lichos at 1:00 AM is not as authentic as
     saying them at 6:20 AM; it is _more_ authentic.  One of the phrases
     you said was "Gnon na giz'o b'za'akam b'od layil."  How could you say
     this truthfully after sunrise?  It was obviously meant to be said
     while it was still night, and probably should have been skipped if
     said after daybreak, to avoid a false t'filla.

EMT

 

Prof. Levine wrote:

> Shall we say that the saying of the first selichos at 1 am
> is just as authentic as saying them at 6:20 am on  Sunday
> morning as I did?  I personally think not.
>
> I really fail to see how one can maintain that the Ezras
> Torah calender is as "authentic" as the Luach put out by
> Machon Moreshes Ashkenaz.  The Luach of Machon Moreshes
> Ashkenaz is based on a huge amount of research into the
> way things were hundreds of years ago in the past.

I don't see how this conversation can be productive unless the word
"authentic" is clarified and defined. Selichos did not appear suddenly at a
specific point in time "hundreds of years ago in the past." The custom has
been developing for over a thousand years, and will undoubtedly continue to
develop for the forseeable future.

I don't know why the version of Rav Hamburger should be considered more or
less authentic than that of Rav Henkin. For that matter, why either of
those would be more or less authentic than that of R' Elazar HaKalir. Or
that of Moshe Rabenu. But if we define what we mean by "authentic", then
we'll have a yardstick with which to answer those questions.

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
One Weird Trick
Could add $1,000s to Your Social Security Checks! See if you Qualify&#8230
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R' Y. Levine wrote that saying Selichos at 6:20AM on Sunday morning is at
least as authentic as saying it at 1AM.

Actually I don't think so. If you said Selichos at 5 AM maybe. However, if
you look in the Shulchan Aruch and Poskim, selichos are supposed to be said
before dawn when it is still dark out. That is why the poskim have
discussions about whose Talis the Shliach Tzibur should wear when saying
Selichos because Selichos were said before the zman of tzitzis so there was
a question about making a beracha.

Saying Selichos at 6:20 is starting after sunrise which was certainly not
the minhag in Europe.
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R' Sero suggested
> It's also possible, I suppose, that several chavuros would send their lambs
> with one shliach, who'd have to remember which was which, and shecht each
> one lesheim its owners.   Is one allowed to mark the wool of a korban with paint
> or something, so as to be able to recognise it afterwards?   If so, perhaps
> the shliach could just shecht each one lesheim its owners, whoever they happen
> to be, and then bring them out and the owners would each recognise and claim
> their own.

There are a number of issues with this.

1. There is no source for this. If this is how they were makriv the
korban pesach you would think someone would explain this.

2. How does marking the wool help? The Korban was skinned in the Beis
Hamikdash so after skinning how would the shliach identify the animals?

3. How would the shliach carry out the dead animals? How many dead sheep
can one man carry?



On 2/09/2013 6:11 PM, M Cohen wrote
> In addition, all of the emurim have to burnt before nightfall
> (from 1.2 million korban pesachs!)

R' Sero answered:
> No, by the next morning

Does that really help? Do you think that the eimurim of 1.2 million
animals could all be burned on the mizbeach even by morning?

If we had to point out the most important or one of the most important themes of Judaism,
the word Theocentric would probably be correct. Judaism is basically G-d centered and 
from there everything else branches out. In the portion of Haazinu, Moshe poetically warns
the people to remember G-d. From birth until death, everything we do centers around the
Creator. We praise, thank, bless, glorify, etc. etc. G-d for EVERYTHING.  We do not take
a morsel of food or drink without making a b'rocho, both before and after. We do 
not look at a rainbow or listen to thunder or see lightening without praising G-d. All of this
made me think of a true story many years ago.  It was told that the President of Argentina
in 1960, Arturo Frondizi, met Roger Babson, famous statistician and founder of Babson College.
 
In the course of their discussion, Babson asked the President why South America, with all its 
natural resources, its mines, its rivers and waterfalls, is so far behind North America. The President
replied with an answer you will never forget. He said: "South America was settled by the Spanish, 
who came in search of gold; but North America was settled by the Pilgrim Fathers, who came in search of God."

What a powerful response!

"Seek ye the Lord while He may be found"
Isaiah 55:6

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Sunrise - at least here in Chicago - is at about 6:20 AM. Most of the AM
Slichos are completed well before that time... at least thee one I go to
including the 1st Selichos on Sunday.

I therefore do not think there is any real difference between waiting til
almost 1 AM on Motzoi Shabbos to say it and saying it at about 5:30 AM
Sunday morning... except for the idea of Zerizus. And if that's someone's
issue, then they should be doing it at 1 AM every night.

When I was in ?Telshe, the first Selichos was always Sunday morning, not 1 AM.

HM
?
Want Emes and Emunah in your life? 


Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/


>________________________________
> From:Elazar M. Teitz <r...@juno.com>
>
> 
>
>? ?  RDYitzchok Levine wrote, "Shall we say that the saying of the
>first selichos at 1 am is just as authentic as saying them at 6:20 am
>on? Sunday morning as I did?? I personally think not."
>
>? ?  You are right.? Saying S'lichos at 1:00 AM is not as authentic as
>saying them at 6:20 AM; it is _more_ authentic.? One of the phrases you
>said was "Gnon na giz'o b'za'akam b'od layil."? How could you say this
>truthfully after sunrise?? It was obviously meant to be said while it
>was still night, and probably should have been skipped if said after
>daybreak, to avoid a false t'filla.
>
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Another problem with 1.2 million Korbanot Pessach in a single day is
entirely of halakhic nature: we may not slaughter a KP for a single
individual, as that creates nossar. I do not know when is the last time you
say a sheep, but it is fairly vluminous, especially if we eat the achoraim,
which was a duty, since you couldn't sell korbon meat to a nokhri.##Since
it was to be eaten 'al hasova', we could count with at least 50-80 people
per korbon, possibly as many as 120.

If you have 1.2 million 'olei regel, you have about 12'000 korbonos, max
24'000.

ketiva va-chatima tova,
-- 
Arie Folger
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At 01:51 AM 9/4/2013, Marty Bluke wrote:
>R' Y. Levine wrote that saying Selichos at 6:20AM on Sunday morning 
>is at least as authentic as saying it at 1AM.

I did not write this.  You have not quoted me properly.  Please 
review my post.


>Actually I don't think so. If you said Selichos at 5 AM maybe. 
>However, if you look in the Shulchan Aruch and Poskim, selichos are 
>supposed to be said before dawn when it is still dark out. That is 
>why the poskim have discussions about whose Talis the Shliach Tzibur 
>should wear when saying Selichos because Selichos were said before 
>the zman of tzitzis so there was a question about making a beracha.
>
>Saying Selichos at 6:20 is starting after sunrise which was 
>certainly not the minhag in Europe.

It all depends where you are located.  6:20 is before sunrise in some places.

YL

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On Wed, Sep 04, 2013 at 12:28:16PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
> It all depends where you are located.  6:20 is before sunrise in some places.

But the bottom line there is a a lack in picking a time with no eye to
preceding sunrise.

But in any case, this is part of a general pattern, and I doubt your
use of the word "authentic" had anything to do with the particular
merits of this one practice.

I'm okay with certain communities feeling that there is special authority
to the Ashkenazi rabbis and practice of the period of transition from
rishonim and acharonim. And so special importance is given the Maharil
and Rama.

But why the Maharil's nusach or minhaghim over Rashi's, the Baalei
Tosafos's or the Chassidei Ashkenaz? And for that matter, how much
priority should we be giving mimetics over halachic reasoning, or
halachic reasoning over practices that help foster ahavas veyir'as
Hashem?

Obviously, if the leading poseiq of the American Ashkenazi community
of his period, R' Henkin, held differently than Yekkish norm, it's
"authentic". For any of us on-list to believe otherwise would be to
think we are more skilled at the art of pesaq than one of the gedolei
haposqim.

What you tend to promote as the one right answer for the whole Ashkenazi
subset of the chevrah is only one of many valid directions one can take
the halachic process in. And so REMT showed by example that there are
other ways of defining authenticity. In this example, one that deal
more with the merits of each case than the preservation of one era's
historical practice.

Eilu va'eilu. As in this case, you gave a link to one authentic
interpretation of the mesorah, I gave a link to another. It's not an
either-or, it's two different valid ways to be an observant Jew.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The fittingness of your matzos [for the seder]
mi...@aishdas.org        isn't complete with being careful in the laws
http://www.aishdas.org   of Passover. One must also be very careful in
Fax: (270) 514-1507      the laws of business.    - Rav Yisrael Salanter

There has been some discussion in the past on the correct text of Aleinu
see
http://seforim.blogspot.com/2013/09/le-tacen-olam-establishing
-correct-text.html

for an in depth discussion of Le-Tacen Olam

-- 
Eli Turkel

On 4/09/2013 6:26 AM, Arie Folger wrote:
> Another problem with 1.2 million Korbanot Pessach in a single day is
> entirely of halakhic nature: we may not slaughter a KP for a single
> individual, as that creates nossar.

Of course not.  That is why nobody suggested such a thing, and in fact the
gemara says they assumed a *minimum* of 10 people per korban.


> I do not know when is the last
> time you say a sheep, but it is fairly vluminous

Not really.  This was Pesach, so the lambs and kids were 1-2 months old,
about 6-8 kg each, which means about 3-6 kg of meat.    And for all we know
this may have been a year in which the decision was *nearly* made to add a
month, which would mean that the lambs and kids were smaller than average,
perhaps only 2 or 3 kg, for 1-1.5 kg of meat.


> ##Since it was to be eaten 'al hasova', we could
> count with at least 50-80 people per korbon, possibly as many as 120.

Again, the gemara says at least 10.  Presumably that would cover the
smallest ones, for families that didn't have a lot of money for another
animal to eat first, so they would have eaten matzah and vegetables first
and then finished the meal with a good helping of lamb.

>
> If you have 1.2 million 'olei regel, you have about 12'000 korbonos, max 24'000.

But we don't have 1.2M olei regel, we have a count of 1.2M korbanos, and
deduce from that a *minimum* population of 12M, plus those who were tamei
or away.

-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

    Many years ago, I was teaching a third grade Hebrew School class.
    We were discussing the Jewish concept of G-d and one of the usually
    quiet students raised his hand and said he wishes he were G-d. Somewhat
    surprised, I replied, David, we all have a piece of G-d deep down inside of us,
    to which again, to my surprise, he said: "Yeah, but how can we dig that piece out?
    Realizing I was dealing with a very bright student I responded: "Whenever we do the
    right thing, whenever we are good, whenever we do a good deed we are clearly revealing  
    that piece of God deep down inside of us. David's next comment was probably one of the most
    profound any student ever made. He said: "Then when we do something bad or don't live up to G-d's
    commandments, we are burying God." And though I didn't show my amazement, I said to the class: "That's
    the lesson for today: DON'T BURY G-D!"

    R. Chanina remarked, "I have learned much from my teachers, more from my colleagues, and the most from my students" (Ta'anis 7a)

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Footnote 29 begins with "The use of the root ??? to mean 'establish' 
does require some explanation."  That is an underlying premise of the 
entire piece, and I consider the kind of scholarship which defers it to 
one of the last footnotes, rather than discussing it in the body of the 
article, to be questionable.

Lisa


On 9/4/2013 10:24 AM, Eli Turkel wrote:
> There has been some discussion in the past on the correct text of Aleinu
> see
> http://seforim.blogspot.com/2013/09/le-tacen-olam-es
> tablishing-correct-text.html
>
> for an in depth discussion of Le-Tacen Olam
>
>    
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On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Prof. Levine <llev...@stevens.edu> wrote:

It all depends where you are located.  6:20 is before sunrise in some
> places.
>
> What is your point? You live in Brooklyn and sunrise in Brooklyn was 6:23
on the first day of Selichos so you said 99% of the Selichos after sunrise
including the passages that refer to saying the selichos before dawn.

In any case Selichos are supposed to be said before Alos Hashachar in the
last part of the night which you certainly did not do.
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On Wed, Sep 04, 2013 at 06:24:23PM +0300, Eli Turkel wrote:
: There has been some discussion in the past on the correct text of Aleinu
: see
: http://seforim.blogspot.com/2013/09/le-tacen-olam-establis
: hing-correct-text.html
: for an in depth discussion of Le-Tacen Olam

Three unrelated thoughts:

1- As I already wrote in prior iterations, lesaqein olam (w/ a quf) fits
"leha'avir gelulim... veha'elilim karos yekareisun" no less than lesakein
(w/ a kaf) would fit "vekhol benei vasar", etc...

(This is a discussion which highlights the advantage of avoiding false
homonyms by using "q" for quphs.)

2- How does either fit the "be-" in "bemalkhus Shakai"? At least "repair
the world using G-d's Sovereignty" has a meaning. One can't establish
the world using in, as the world has been established already. One can
talk of "establish the world into G-d's Sovereignty", almost ... it's
weird grammar. But then the other alternative, that Hashem's Melukhah
is a tool for repair, isn't glatt smooth reading either.

3- In any case, whichever was the original... Once you concede that
"lesaqein" appears in numerous rishon-approved texts (e.g. Machzor
Vitri), then you have established (pun intented, sorry) the idea's
acceptability. One doesn't need the antiquity of being the first nusach
to prove an idea is Jewish rather than an error.

And you may have noticed I tend to post versions of #3 in every discussion
of historical analyses of Judaism. This comment is a sibling to my
assertion that it's up to a halachicist, not a historian, to decide
whether more information about what a kezayis /was/ has halakhah lemaaseh
impact on what a kezayis /is/.

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Live as if you were living already for the
mi...@aishdas.org        second time and as if you had acted the first
http://www.aishdas.org   time as wrongly as you are about to act now!
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Victor Frankl, Man's search for Meaning


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