Avodah Mailing List

Volume 31: Number 157

Tue, 03 Sep 2013

• 1. Re: defense against rape or assault (Kenneth Miller)
• 2. Minhagim of the Ashkenaz Synagogue ("The Luach") (5774) (Prof. Levine)
• 3. Re: How many Korban Pesachs could be sacrificed in 1 day? (Elazar M. Teitz)
• 4. How many Korban Pesachs could be sacrificed in 1 day (M Cohen)
• 5. Re: defense against rape or assault (Zev Sero)
• 6. Rambam on False Messiahs (shalomy...@comcast.net)
• 7. Re: How many Korban Pesachs could be sacrificed in 1 day? (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: How many Korban Pesachs could be sacrificed in 1 day? (Kenneth Miller)
• 9. Re: Minhagim of the Ashkenaz Synagogue ("The Luach") (5774) (Zev Sero)
• 10. Re: How many Korban Pesachs could be sacrificed in 1 day? (Lisa Liel)
• 11. How many Korban Pesachs could be sacrificed in 1 day? (Eli Turkel)
• 12. Re: How many Korban Pesachs could be sacrificed in 1 day? (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: How many Korban Pesachs could be sacrificed in 1 day? (Marty Bluke)
• 14. Re: How many Korban Pesachs could be sacrificed in 1 day? (Marty Bluke)
• 15. Insights Into Halacha: (Not) To Eat Fish on Rosh Hashana (Prof. Levine)

R' Mordechai Cohen wrote:
> The question asked to me was practical
> However, my post to Avodah was intended to cover the halacha
> from  both theoretical and practical viewpoints.

Sorry, I just don't see the difference. It's like asking, "I know that
Safek Pikuach Nefesh is doche Shabbos on a practical level, but does the
theoretical viewpoint also see it that way?"

Unless I'm mistaken, the heter for *safek* pikuach nefesh is not based on a
specific pasuk or a special limud. Rather, it is a clarification of what
the general category of "sakanah" entails. In other words, we need to
understand the concept of "danger" better.

As I see it, the idea of a "possible danger" is almost silly. If one
"might" be in danger, then he *is* in danger. The very concept of danger
means that something *might* happen. To say that it "might might" happen is
beyond my vocabulary or comprehension.

(This is not to exclude the idea of a *future* danger. For example, one
might have a minor illness which is very clearly minor right now, although
it might develop into a major ilness later. The idea of a negligible danger
is also important, such as the attacker who was "merely" teasing or
bullying, which I mentioned in my previous post. These distinctions are
important, lest we fear to get out of bed in the morning.)

Following this train of thought, to ask about a "theoretical" danger
escapes me. A danger is a danger. Whether it is theoretical or practical is
irrelevant. And whether the rodef is an illness, or a mugger, or a rapist,
is irrelevant. If you're in danger, you must do whatever you can to escape,
up to and including deadly force.

May none of us ever be in such situations.

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
One Weird Trick
Could add $1,000s to Your Social Security Checks! See if you Qualify&#8230
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At 03:51 PM 9/2/2013, R. Micha wrote:

>On Sun, Sep 01, 2013 at 12:59:47PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
> > If you compare the two,  you will find many differences.  Rabbi
> > Hamburger's Luach is based on the old ("authentic")  minhag Ashkenaz...
>
>Yes, but, who says that today's East European descended Anglo Jew is
>more bound by the "old 'authentic' minhag Ashkenaz" than halakhah as
>decided in America by an East Eurpean like R' Henkin?
>
>And thus, both calendars have their value, and neither approach to
>halakhah more authentic than the other.

While I know that it is in "vogue" in American society to be 
accepting of all sorts of approaches to things,  this does not mean 
that every approach is "authentic."

Let me give an example.  A friend of mine often speaks of what he 
terms the "American" innovation of saying the first selichos at 1 AM 
(in some places it has become 10 pm) after Shabbos.  He maintains 
that this was not done in Europe and that the first selichos as well 
as all of the others were said in the morning.  (My father-in-law who 
is from Ungvar has told me more than once that he never heard of 
saying the first selichos at 1 am until he came to America.)

Shall we say that the saying of the first selichos at 1 am is just as 
authentic as saying them at 6:20 am on  Sunday morning as I did?  I 
personally think not.

I really fail to see how one can maintain that the Ezras Torah 
calender is as "authentic" as the Luach put out by Machon Moreshes 
Ashkenaz.  The Luach of Machon Moreshes Ashkenaz is based on a huge 
amount of research into the way things were hundreds of years ago in the past.

I am not taking anything away from Rav Henkin, who was most certainly 
a great man.  However,  I suspect that if he had seen the Luach of 
the Machon and was made aware of how much research went into its 
creation, then he would have agreed as Rav Schwab did when it came to 
comparing KAJ with R.  Bamburger's shul's minhagim,  namely, Rav 
Schwab commented that compared to R. Bamburger's shul KAJ is like a 
Chassidishe Shteibel.

YL
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     RZev Sero wrote, "The azara was 187 x 135.  Take away 100x100 for the
     Hechal, and 32x32 for the mizbeach, leaves over 14,000 sq amos, which
     at 50 cm is over 3,500 sq metres. If 2000 people are actively
     sacrificing at any one time, and each of those occupies 1 sq metre,
     that leaves 1500 sq metres for all the people who are waiting their
     turn, and for the kohanim's lines, etc.  It's tight, but probably
     doable even without miracles."

     Even assuming that all the rest of the space was available for people
     and animals, ignoring the fact that much of the space was occupied by
     the kevesh, kiyor, shulchanos, amudim and taba'os, and even not
     counting the space occupied by the kohanim, it is still impossible
     without nissim. The entire azara, 187 x 135 amos, was 25425 square
     amos.  Allowing as little as one square ama per person (far less than
     a square meter), even the entire area of the azara could not
     accommodate 30000 people, let alone the 400000 per group needed to
     generate 1.2 million korbanos.

EMT

Good questions - I also have had the same questions.

In addition, all of the emurim have to burnt before nightfall
(from 1.2 million korban pesachs!)

The blood from 1.2 million would drown everyone, where to roast 1.2m KP, etc

Either the number is guzma (but this is not mentioned by the mforshim),
or there were multiple miracles necessary (also not mentioned by the
mforshim)

KVCT, mc

On 2/09/2013 3:45 PM, Kenneth Miller wrote:
> R' Mordechai Cohen wrote:
>> >The question asked to me was practical
>> >However, my post to Avodah was intended to cover the halacha
>> >from  both theoretical and practical viewpoints.
>
> Sorry, I just don't see the difference. It's like asking, "I know
> that Safek Pikuach Nefesh is doche Shabbos on a practical level, but
> does the theoretical viewpoint also see it that way?"

But where you know for sure that there is no pikuach nefesh, you can't break
Shabbos....except that you actually can, for a sakanas eiver.  We *call* it
"pikuach nefesh", even though it's not, and we allow it to override Shabbos.
That's why I suggested that the same *might* be true in the case of self-
defense.  By analogy to Shabbos, perhaps one might defend oneself from a
mere sakanas eiver, even if it's "clear as day" that there's no danger to
actual life.

-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

>>I'm trying to make a distinction between Bar Kokhva, where the decree from 
>>heaven that he isn't the messiah may not have been until well into his 
>>career, and Shabbatai Tzevi, where I don't think anyone asserts he ever 
>>was an candidate in beis din shel ma'alah's plans. 

When I originally posted this topic, I was thinking mainly about Shabbatai Tzvi 
(and RMMS). What was really different between Shabbatai Tzvi and Bar Kochba? 

Both had lots of followers (including important Rabbeim), both organized militaries, 
etc. If we would be obligated to follow BK until his death, why wouldn't we have been obligated to 
follow ShTz (at least until he went over to the Ishmaelites)? 
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On 2/09/2013 5:22 PM, Elazar M. Teitz wrote:
> The entire azara, 187 x 135 amos, was 25425 square amos.  Allowing as
> little as one square ama per person (far less than a square meter),
> even the entire area of the azara could not accommodate 30000 people,
> let alone the 400000 per group needed to generate 1.2 million
> korbanos.

I'm assuming that those not actively sacrificing don't need even a square amah,
let alone a square metre.  I was allowing a square metre (which is probably
generous) for the ones actively shechting, and the kohanim attending them.
The rest could squash very tightly, though I imagine they'd have to hold their
lambs up to avoid getting them squashed and possibly becoming treif.

It's also possible, I suppose, that several chavuros would send their lambs
with one shliach, who'd have to remember which was which, and shecht each one
lesheim its owners.   Is one allowed to mark the wool of a korban with paint
or something, so as to be able to recognise it afterwards?   If so, perhaps
the shliach could just shecht each one lesheim its owners, whoever they happen
to be, and then bring them out and the owners would each recognise and claim
their own.


On 2/09/2013 6:11 PM, M Cohen wrote:
> In addition, all of the emurim have to burnt before nightfall
> (from 1.2 million korban pesachs!)

No, by the next morning.

> The blood from 1.2 million would drown everyone

It drained away.

> where to roast 1.2m KP, etc

All over Y'm!

-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

R' Marty Bluke asked:
>>> 1.2 million korban pesachs seem to be a very problematic number.

Remember that we're talking about a place where the Keruvim were in a room
20 amos wide, yet there was ten amos of empty space on each side. Is it
such a stretch (heh, no pun intended) to think that this could apply to
time as well as to space?

In a place where "they stood crowded, but bowed with plenty of space," I
have no problem imagining that the avodah was done carefully, and yet, when
each person left, he found that almost no time at all had passed.

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
One Weird Trick
Could add $1,000s to Your Social Security Checks! See if you Qualify&#8230
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/52252c3084c0a2c3026c1st04vuc

On 2/09/2013 4:27 PM, Prof. Levine wrote:
>    A friend of mine often speaks of what he terms the "American" innovation
> of saying the first selichos at 1 AM [...] after Shabbos.  He maintains that
> this was not done in Europe  and that the first selichos as well as all of the
> others were said in the morning.

That is a foolish claim.  It is certainly not an American innovation.  How
would the Americans have come up with it, and how would it have become accepted
everywhere else?  It was the dominant custom in most of  Eastern Europe.
Certainly in Litta, Reissin, and Poland.


> (My father-in-law who is from Ungvar has told me more than once that
> he never heard of saying the first selichos at 1 am until he came to
> America.)

Nu, so maybe in the Oberland they didn't do it.  How is that proof for the
rest of Europe?  Not many minhagim covered the entire European continent,
after all!  In Italy they didn't even start on a Sunday, but on a Monday or
Thursday; this year the Italians started on Thursday, a full week before
Rosh Hashana.  And of course Sefardim started on the 2nd of Elul.  But you
admit that the dominant custom in Europe was to start on Sunday; and I'm
telling  you that the dominant custom among those starting on Sunday was to
do so at midnight on "motzaei menucha".


>  Shall we say that the saying of the first selichos at 1 am is just as
>  authentic as saying them at 6:20 am on  Sunday morning as I did?  I
> personally think not.

It is absolutely *at least* as authentic.


> I really fail to see how one can maintain that the Ezras Torah calender
> is as "authentic" as the Luach put out by Machon Moreshes Ashkenaz.

Why should it not be?  It doesn't purport to reproduce the peculiar minhagim
of Frankfurt, or of Germany in general.  R Henkin was not a Yekker.  But it
does represent the authentic, mostly Litvishe, minhagim that are common in
American Ashkenazi kehillos.

> Rav Schwab commented that compared to R. Bamburger's shul KAJ is like a
> Chassidishe Shteibel.

Nu, so what's wrong with that?  How is a chassidishe shtibel less authentic
than any other shul?  Since when is all of America supposed to be Fafdam?!

-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

On 9/2/2013 7:23 PM, Kenneth Miller wrote:
> R' Marty Bluke asked:
>    
>>>> 1.2 million korban pesachs seem to be a very problematic number.
>>>>          
> Remember that we're talking about a place where the Keruvim were in a
> room 20 amos wide, yet there was ten amos of empty space on each side.
> Is it such a stretch (heh, no pun intended) to think that this could
> apply to time as well as to space?
>
> In a place where "they stood crowded, but bowed with plenty of space,"
> I have no problem imagining that the avodah was done carefully, and
> yet, when each person left, he found that almost no time at all had
> passed.
>
> Akiva Miller
>    
I'm hesitant to attribute it to a miracle when Chazal specifically 
included the bowing thing and didn't mention this as a miracle.

Lisa

<<Recently I learned Pesachim 64b (daf yomi) where the Gemara states that
King Agrippas wanted to take a census so he had the Cohanim count the
number of Korban Pesachs that were brought and it came out to 1.2 million
korbanos, 12 million people (10 to a korban)>>

In addition to the problems of so many korbanot in the short time the
number of 12 million people in Jerusalem is quite impossible. Also not all
Jews came to Jerusalem. Including Jews from various parts of the Roman
empire would give at least 2 million Jews.
OTOH The census of Augustus gave a population of 4-5 million people in the
entire Roman empire
http://www.livescience.com/9732-ancient-rome-real-population-reveale
d.html
meaning that about 50% of the population of the entire Roman empire was
Jewsih not including the many Jewish sympathizers who we know were numerous

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On Tue, Sep 03, 2013 at 11:47:50AM +0300, Marty Bluke wrote:
: How it is just tight? as I pointed out there are only 3 groups for
: Korban Pesach meaning that the groups consist of 400,000 (or more). Do
: you really think 398,000 people can fit in 1500 square meters?

I don't think the frequency of 95 per sec is a problem, given enough
teams doing qorbanos. E.g. there are 

R' Yochanan (Sukkah 8a) uses 24 people as a way to measure a 24 ammah
circumpherance. Mar Kashisha suggests he meant a person fits in 2/3 of
an ammah. Also let's assume (based on arguments I made here in the past,
besides being on the more liberal end) that in those days they held an
ammah was around 17 to 18" -- to make things easy, say 1/2 meter. So,
1 sq meter holds roughly 9 people. And if we could simply pack people in,
we're talking 1500 sq meters being room for 13,500 people. By a generous
reading of Chazal's own estimates for packing people in.

And then we also need room for the sheep, the kohanim, the space in
which to shecht, qabbalas hadam, etc...

The mishnah (5:7) says the third shift was smaller than the other two --
sha'amah mu'atin. Hallel would be said two or three times during the first
two shifts until every qorban for the shift was complete. However, in
the third shift they either never finished the 2nd iteration (tana qama)
or didn't reach Ahavti (of the 2nd iteration? the first? either way -- R'
Yehudah). So, the first two shifts had to have more than 400,000 qorbanos.

Aside: The Kotzker Rebbe has a clever piece of mussar on this. The third
kat never reached ahavti because if they had that ahavah, they would have
found a way to be in an earlier kat! Zerivim maqdimim!

I thought of three possibilities, and they aren't mutually exclusive:

1- The Yisraeli didn't stay for the full shift. They came in, joined
the choir for Hallel -- or maybe were saying Hallel elsewhere -- made
their way in a parade past the kohanim, and continued back out.

But as RET mentioned, even fitting 12mm people in Y-m is a problem.

2- This is the same neis as tzar li hamaqom or hishtachavayah.

But as Lisa noted, we need to know why bowing was mentioned and not
this. I don't find this a show-stopper question, since it's proof by
ommission. Maybe we'll find that medrash among the Cairo fragments;
Chazal took it for granted we'd put 2 and 2 together; or whatever
other excuse we could make up.

3- Guzma.

4- The context is Aggripas's census. And for that sake the number is
around correct. So the problem is in assuming that Aggripas deduced
the number from the number of qorbanos, that every 10 Jews actually
did bring their own qorban pesach.

Maybe (my own suggestion) the kohanim gave Aggripas a number of left
kidneys from which he or they estimated that there *should have been*
1.2 mm qorbanos. Including those who lived far away, who sinned, who came
for Pesach Sheini, etc... Not that 1.2mm qorbanos were actually brought.

This would also solve RET's housing problem.

Side question: The impression I got from Pesachim 85b, 86a-b, was that
we really maximized the number of people per chaburah. Given that it had
to be eaten al hasovah, not gasa, and last, we would aim for around a
kezayis per member of the chaburah. Admittedly this isn't said anywhere,
this maximalization seems to just underly numerous statements. And it
would mean far more than 10 people per lamb.

And in any case, I don't know where the average of 10 would come from
if we were talking actual demographics rather than estimation.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When memories exceed dreams,
mi...@aishdas.org        The end is near.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - Rav Moshe Sherer
Fax: (270) 514-1507

R' M Cohen wrote:
> Either the number is guzma (but this is not mentioned by the mforshim),
> or there were multiple miracles necessary (also not mentioned by the
> mforshim)

Why would the Gemara exaggerate here? The Gemara seems to be simply telling
us a historical fact. Regarding miracles, this would require multiple major
miracles, why wouldn't these be mentioned somewhere?

[Email #2.'

R' Zev Sero wrote:
> If 2000 people are actively sacrificing at any one time, and each of those
> occupies 1 sq metre, that leaves 1500 sq metres for all the people who are
> waiting their turn, and for the kohanim's lines, etc.  It's tight, but
> probably doable even without miracles.

How it is just tight? as I pointed out there are only 3 groups for
Korban Pesach meaning that the groups consist of 400,000 (or more). Do
you really think 398,000 people can fit in 1500 square meters?

[Email #3.]

R' Zev Sero wrote:
> And of course there were miracles, e.g. on Yom Kippur, so why not on Erev
> Pesach as well?

As opposed to Yom Kippur, I haven't seen a single source in Chazal or
Rishonim saying that the hakrava of the Korban Pesach was miraculous.

Please see my comments inline

On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 6:57 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 03, 2013 at 11:47:50AM +0300, Marty Bluke wrote:
>: How it is just tight? as I pointed out there are only 3 groups for
>: Korban Pesach meaning that the groups consist of 400,000 (or more). Do
>: you really think 398,000 people can fit in 1500 square meters?

> I don't think the frequency of 95 per sec is a problem, given enough
> teams doing qorbanos. E.g. there are

When you combine this with the Gemara that you quoted later that they only
said Hallel 2 or 3 times this is very problematic. How long could they
possibly be saying Hallel for? Enough time to be Makriv 400,000 korbanos?
It doesn't sound like each group took that much time.

...

> 1- The Yisraeli didn't stay for the full shift. They came in, joined
> the choir for Hallel -- or maybe were saying Hallel elsewhere -- made
> their way in a parade past the kohanim, and continued back out.

That is not what it sounds like from the Gemara. The Gemara states that
once everyone was inside they locked the doors. It sounds like no one went
in and no one went out during that time. In any case how does that help?

> But as RET mentioned, even fitting 12mm people in Y-m is a problem.

> 2- This is the same neis as tzar li hamaqom or hishtachavayah.

> But as Lisa noted, we need to know why bowing was mentioned and not
> this. I don't find this a show-stopper question, since it's proof by
> ommission. Maybe we'll find that medrash among the Cairo fragments;
> Chazal took it for granted we'd put 2 and 2 together; or whatever
> other excuse we could make up.

This would be some Nes, much greater then the bowing.

The problem with this answer is that not only doesn't it appear in Chazal
but it doesn't appear anywhere in the Rishonim or Acharonim. That would
strongly suggest that this isn't the answer.

> 3- Guzma.

Why?

As we sit down tomorrow night, Rosh Hashana night, to partake of our 
Simanim, as symbolic omens to enable a "Sweet New Year", we might 
want to give a thought or two to the fact that one of the most 
widespread of the Simanim, fish, which can be used for two separate 
Simanim, is cited by many authorities as an item not to be eaten on 
Rosh Hashana...

To find out why and if it still applies, read the full article 
"<https://go.madmimi.com/redirects/137
8220061-f3e1f3522b5dd7c62de9ed86c31aa237-c5edaf6?pa=528514558112408088&
gt; 
Insights Into Halacha: (Not) To Eat Fish on Rosh Hashana". For all of 
the Mareh Mekomos / sources, just ask.
<https://go.madmimi.com/redirects/137
8220061-a2749ba6bfa828485fd7d4e4e12116be-c5edaf6?pa=528514558112408088&
gt;Insights 
Into Halacha is a weekly series of contemporary Halacha articles for 
Ohr Somayach. If you enjoyed the article, please share it with 
friends and family. To sign up to receive weekly articles simply email me.
kol tuv,
Y. Spitz
Yerushalayim
<mailto:ysp...@ohr.edu>ysp...@ohr.edu






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